RE: An interresting concept if it has any legs.

Collarspace Discussion Forums

Home Login Search

RE: An interresting concept if it has any legs.

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: An interresting concept if it has any legs.

Page: << < prev 1 [2] 3 next > >>

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: An interresting concept if it has any legs. - 8/12/2013 5:52:59 PM

thishereboi

Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

Of course some of them are. Does that make it right somehow? There are assholes in every group. When I see an exceptionally condescending one, I point it out. If you feel the need to swoop in to defend them by crying "but they did it too" I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

I'm not saying "They did it too"
I'm saying they did it for centuries and very effectively.

I am not sure I understand your point. Am I supposed to ignore it now because it happened in the past?

_____________________________

"Sweetie, you're wasting your gum" .. Albert

This here is the boi formerly known as orfunboi

(in reply to Hillwilliam)

Profile

Post #: 21

RE: An interresting concept if it has any legs. - 8/12/2013 5:53:12 PM

Hillwilliam

Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: metamorfosis

I wonder if there's any correlation between the tendency to derail interesting discussions and stupidity.

I wonder if there is any correlation between passive aggressive posts and the same.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to metamorfosis)

Profile

Post #: 22

RE: An interresting concept if it has any legs. - 8/12/2013 6:24:52 PM

dcnovice

Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline

FR

I found a much more detailed article about the study:

http://arstechnica.com/science/2013/08/new-meta-analysis-checks-the-correlation-between-intelligence-and-faith/

It discusses how the researchers handled "intelligence":

The three psychologists have defined intelligence as the “ability to reason, plan, solve problems, think abstractly, comprehend complex ideas, learn quickly, and learn from experience.” In short this is analytic intelligence, not the newly identified forms of creative and emotional intelligence, which are still subjects of dispute. In the various studies being examined, analytic intelligence has been measured in many different ways, including GPA (grade point average), UEE (university entrance exams), Mensa membership, and Intelligence Quotient (IQ) tests, among others.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to Hillwilliam)

Profile

Post #: 23

RE: An interresting concept if it has any legs. - 8/12/2013 6:31:19 PM

Hillwilliam

Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

FR

I found a much more detailed article about the study:

http://arstechnica.com/science/2013/08/new-meta-analysis-checks-the-correlation-between-intelligence-and-faith/

It discusses how the researchers handled "intelligence":

The three psychologists have defined intelligence as the “ability to reason, plan, solve problems, think abstractly, comprehend complex ideas, learn quickly, and learn from experience.” In short this is analytic intelligence, not the newly identified forms of creative and emotional intelligence, which are still subjects of dispute. In the various studies being examined, analytic intelligence has been measured in many different ways, including GPA (grade point average), UEE (university entrance exams), Mensa membership, and Intelligence Quotient (IQ) tests, among others.

ty for the new article.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to dcnovice)

Profile

Post #: 24

RE: An interresting concept if it has any legs. - 8/12/2013 6:36:08 PM

dcnovice

Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ty for the new article.

You're welcome! I'd hoped to peek at the study itself, but that requires a subscription.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to Hillwilliam)

Profile

Post #: 25

RE: An interresting concept if it has any legs. - 8/12/2013 6:45:50 PM

dcnovice

Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline

FR

If I read the Ars Technica piece right (always an "if" where statistics are involved), it sounds like there was a lot of identifying statistical "correlations" (always a tricky word), but no direct empirical testing of the hypothesis. It would be interesting to see what happened if one took religious and nonreligious folks from the same populations (socioeconomic class, educational level, professional achievement) and administered the same bias-neutral (or as close as possible) test to them both. Would the "correlations" still hold? That would be fascinating to know.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to dcnovice)

Profile

Post #: 26

RE: An interresting concept if it has any legs. - 8/12/2013 7:29:05 PM

Marini

Posts: 3629
Joined: 2/14/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

FR

The article doesn't address what I'd consider a key question: How did the authors define and measure intelligence?

Come on dc, you know only us poor and ignorant folks believe in a higher power.
The really SMART ones don't believe in GOD.
They are so smart, they have it all figured out!

Let me take your hand, and we will keep on believing together.
I will never stop believing.

Peace

< Message edited by Marini -- 8/12/2013 7:30:07 PM >

_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to dcnovice)

Profile

Post #: 27

RE: An interresting concept if it has any legs. - 8/12/2013 7:58:18 PM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline

No but Darwin considered seriously the existence of God... and even in the end I don't believe he was totally convinced there was no guiding source.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Politesub53)

Profile

Post #: 28

RE: An interresting concept if it has any legs. - 8/12/2013 8:03:01 PM

metamorfosis

Posts: 1132
Status: offline

Anyone want to argue these statements: (from the OP's link)

"...Intelligent people may simply be able to provide themselves with the psychological benefits offered by religion- such as 'self regulation and self enhancement' because they are more likely to be successful and have stable lives..."

"...People possessing the functions that religion provides are more likely to adopt atheism, people lacking these very functions (e.g. the poor, the helpless) are likely to adopt theism..."

I take these statements to mean: successful people might not "need" religion as much as others.

It is interesting to note the study does not comment on who is happiest.

< Message edited by metamorfosis -- 8/12/2013 8:12:42 PM >

_____________________________

Pam (aka gungadin09)

Forum Freak

(in reply to Hillwilliam)

Profile

Post #: 29

RE: An interresting concept if it has any legs. - 8/12/2013 8:48:32 PM

Kirata

Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

The three psychologists have defined intelligence as the “ability to reason, plan, solve problems, think abstractly, comprehend complex ideas, learn quickly, and learn from experience.” In short this is analytic intelligence, not the newly identified forms of creative and emotional intelligence, which are still subjects of dispute...

There is also the issue of how the researchers defined religiousity.

Religiosity is defined as involvement in some (or all) facets of religion, which includes belief in the supernatural, offering gifts to this supernatural, and performing rituals affirming their beliefs. Other signs of religiosity were measured using surveys, church attendance, and membership in religious organizations.

That seems less than focused. Confounding church attendance with belief, for example, is fraught with problems. So I decided to query the General Social Survey to see what that would produce.

Granting that there are different dimensions to intelligence, vocabulary tests correlate highly with Verbal IQ and the perception of "intelligence" so I selected that as one of my variables. For the other, I selected the respondent's views on God. And as you might expect, the result was not quite so simplistic as the authors of the reported study make it seem.

Among those who did not believe in God, Verbal IQ (using vocabulary as a proxy) tended to be either very high or abysmally low. No joy for Atheists there. But on the other hand, the query results did show that among those who firmly "know God exists," the scores ranged from low to middling at best.

The two responses that most consistently reflected high Verbal IQ (using vocabulary as a proxy) were (1) "No way to find out" and (2) "Some higher power" -- undefined, but not the monotheistic "God" -- which, as it seems to me, is pretty much what an intelligent person would expect to find.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Kirata -- 8/12/2013 9:05:13 PM >

(in reply to dcnovice)

Profile

Post #: 30

RE: An interresting concept if it has any legs. - 8/12/2013 9:03:38 PM

Hillwilliam

Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline

ty Kirata

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to Kirata)

Profile

Post #: 31

RE: An interresting concept if it has any legs. - 8/12/2013 9:51:17 PM

Zonie63

Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

http://news.yahoo.com/religious-people-are-less-intelligent-than-atheists--study-finds--113350723.html#upCr476

Are they more intelligent or just tend to be better educated?

I'd probably have to look at the data in greater detail, but I doubt that one can make any firm conclusions about this, depending on where the data was obtained. In the United States, our culture has generally been geared towards religion in that most children are inculcated with religious teachings literally from birth (although perhaps not as much with current generations as with previous generations). Peer pressure along with strong cultural influences pretty much direct people towards belief in God and/or religion.

It's something that one may accept without question very early in life, and it's not until one starts to develop more independent thought processes that one starts to question it (and this requires intelligence, since it's going against the grain of one's formative teachings). That situation may be changing, though, as more and more parents don't seem inclined to raise their children with strict religious teachings, as it was more prevalent in previous generations.

I think that those who actively choose to believe or not believe, who do so after sufficient reflection, introspection, and deep philosophical thought; those people would clearly be demonstrating a higher level of intelligence than those who simply conform to whatever idea they were raised in, no matter if that idea is belief or non-belief.

(in reply to Hillwilliam)

Profile

Post #: 32

RE: An interresting concept if it has any legs. - 8/13/2013 3:05:48 AM

Politesub53

Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

No but Darwin considered seriously the existence of God... and even in the end I don't believe he was totally convinced there was no guiding source.

Butch

Then you havent read much about Darwin.

(in reply to kdsub)

Profile

Post #: 33

RE: An interresting concept if it has any legs. - 8/13/2013 3:45:17 AM

Lucylastic

Posts: 40310
Status: offline

the most educated believers I know are the quietest about it.
the loudest are the most ignorant and intolerant
but that works for both sides of the equation...
This kind of "study" is not something I put much stock in.

_____________________________

(•_•)
<) )╯SUCH
/ \

\(•_•)
( (> A NASTY
/ \

(•_•)
<) )> WOMAN
/ \

Duchess Of Dissent
Dont Hate Love

(in reply to Politesub53)

Profile

Post #: 34

RE: An interresting concept if it has any legs. - 8/13/2013 6:02:57 AM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline

quote:

I'm curious if there are any studies done on countries that are predominantly atheist

What countries would these be?

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to metamorfosis)

Profile

Post #: 35

RE: An interresting concept if it has any legs. - 8/13/2013 6:08:14 AM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline

Oh but I have...and although he was very tight lipped with his beliefs he described himself as starting out as Christian and moving to agnostic over time. This is not an out and out atheist as many believe.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Politesub53)

Profile

Post #: 36

RE: An interresting concept if it has any legs. - 8/13/2013 8:21:16 AM

JeffBC

Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
Are they more intelligent or just tend to be better educated?

Or is it something else entirely as the very article you linked pointed out quite clearly. Einstein was religious and Stephen Hawkings (last I checked) takes the scientific view of "neither proven nor disproven... not a science question".

Generally, any study I've ever seen which labeled large groups of humans more/less intelligent was wrong but maybe if we measured the cranial capacities on religious vs. atheistic people we could get to the bottom of this :)

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to Hillwilliam)

Profile

Post #: 37

RE: An interresting concept if it has any legs. - 8/13/2013 9:13:19 AM

metamorfosis

Posts: 1132
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

I'm curious if there are any studies done on countries that are predominantly atheist

What countries would these be?

Butch

Don't know, but if you combine atheists and agnostics, the highest percentages seem to be in Sweden, Vietnam, Denmark, Norway, Japan, Czech Republic, Finland, and Estonia.

www.adherents.com/largecom/com_atheist.html

_____________________________

Pam (aka gungadin09)

Forum Freak

(in reply to kdsub)

Profile

Post #: 38

RE: An interresting concept if it has any legs. - 8/13/2013 9:24:15 AM

Kirata

Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

Generally, any study I've ever seen which labeled large groups of humans more/less intelligent was wrong but maybe if we measured the cranial capacities on religious vs. atheistic people we could get to the bottom of this :)

Cranial volume (brain size) correlates moderately with IQ in humans.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 8/13/2013 9:31:59 AM >

(in reply to JeffBC)

Profile

Post #: 39

RE: An interesting concept if it has any legs. - 8/13/2013 9:25:05 AM

FelineRanger

Posts: 658
Joined: 9/4/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: metamorfosis

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

I'm curious if there are any studies done on countries that are predominantly atheist

What countries would these be?

Butch

Don't know, but if you combine atheists and agnostics, the highest percentages seem to be in Sweden, Vietnam, Denmark, Norway, Japan, Czech Republic, Finland, and Estonia.

www.adherents.com/largecom/com_atheist.html

One thing jumps out at me very quickly. I freely admit that I don't know much about Japan, the Czech Republic, or Estonia, but I do know that the Scandinavian countries are the ones who have the most thorough "welfare" (for lack of a better word) programs in place. The poorest of their populations still have a way to meet their basic needs and their legal system is actually geared toward rehabilitation instead of mere endless punishment, unlike here in the U.S.

_____________________________

Bill

(in reply to metamorfosis)

Profile

Post #: 40