RE: Don't let right-wing Texans put debunked pseudoscience in science textbooks used by millions (Full Version)

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kdsub -> RE: Don't let right-wing Texans put debunked pseudoscience in science textbooks used by millions (8/15/2013 3:55:56 PM)

I am for none of it... but I am not a Texan and have no say... I live in a state that is even worse than Texas and have my own problems... I am, however, for their right to do whatever the majority wants within the law of the land and their state.

Butch



kdsub -> RE: Don't let right-wing Texans put debunked pseudoscience in science textbooks used by millions (8/15/2013 3:59:03 PM)

The point I am making is a petition should be from the people of Texas to mandate a vote on the issue ...not a silly one to publishers that will laugh all the way to the bank.

Butch



metamorfosis -> RE: Don't let right-wing Texans put debunked pseudoscience in science textbooks used by millions (8/15/2013 4:03:50 PM)

Signed.



Moonhead -> RE: Don't let right-wing Texans put debunked pseudoscience in science textbooks used by millions (8/16/2013 3:46:57 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
It's worth asking who benefits from imbeciles wrecking your education system.
Back in the '50s, it was the Russians. These days, it seems to be a fair chunk of south east Asia who are profitting from the American school system treating fairy stories and science as being interchangeable. Who's profiting from stem cell research now?

I'd say that the democrats and republicans most directly benefit from this. It is way easier to pull the wool over people's eyes when they are ignorant.

I'm kind of curious why nobody is up in arms over history and poli-sci texts which, to my mind, are substantially more important to correct than biology texts.

Rewriting history is considerably more offensive, but I'm dubious that it's actually more important, particularly in this day and age. The post you've quoted references the fact that a big part of the reason the (Godless Commie) USSR took an early lead in the space race, despite the leg up your own country had gained from getting hold of the majority of the surviving ex nazi rocketry experts, is because of the damage the Snopes Monkey Trial had done to the American public school system's teaching of science a generation earlier.
If you don't teach kids the sciences, then you won't have any of them reading the sciences at sa university level when they graduate, and twenty odd years down the road you'll have a shortage of engineers and theoretical scientists. That is the end result of cultural anti intellectualism and a contempt for learning, sadly.



Zonie63 -> RE: Don't let right-wing Texans put debunked pseudoscience in science textbooks used by millions (8/16/2013 4:46:04 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
It's worth asking who benefits from imbeciles wrecking your education system.
Back in the '50s, it was the Russians. These days, it seems to be a fair chunk of south east Asia who are profitting from the American school system treating fairy stories and science as being interchangeable. Who's profiting from stem cell research now?

I'd say that the democrats and republicans most directly benefit from this. It is way easier to pull the wool over people's eyes when they are ignorant.

I'm kind of curious why nobody is up in arms over history and poli-sci texts which, to my mind, are substantially more important to correct than biology texts.

Rewriting history is considerably more offensive, but I'm dubious that it's actually more important, particularly in this day and age. The post you've quoted references the fact that a big part of the reason the (Godless Commie) USSR took an early lead in the space race, despite the leg up your own country had gained from getting hold of the majority of the surviving ex nazi rocketry experts, is because of the damage the Snopes Monkey Trial had done to the American public school system's teaching of science a generation earlier.


I see what you're saying, although I think this is a bit of a stretch to suggest that the USSR took an early lead in the space race because of damage caused to the U.S. school system by the Scopes Trial. Not every state is the same, not every school district is the same, so in reality, there is no "American public school system," not as a single entity. Even if kids in Texas get a bad education, it doesn't mean that kids in New York or Minnesota will get a bad education.

The USSR also had captured German scientists to work on their space program.

The USSR had a standardized system which was the same all over the country. The curriculum was centrally planned down to the daily syllabus, so from Murmansk to Vladivostok, all schools would be teaching the exact same things on any given day. Their system was stricter and more disciplined than ours.

Another aspect of it was that parents were required to attend every open house at their children's school, while teachers would publicly berate their children in front of all the other parents. None of this American-style "how-dare-you-criticize-my-kid" bullshit, an attitude which is probably the single biggest destroyer of American education. Under our system, parental involvement in their child's education is optional, but under their system, it was required. Most other countries have school years which are longer than in the U.S. The U.S. standard school year is shorter, mainly as a throwback to the old days when families needed kids home longer during the summer to help work on the farm.

quote:


If you don't teach kids the sciences, then you won't have any of them reading the sciences at sa university level when they graduate, and twenty odd years down the road you'll have a shortage of engineers and theoretical scientists. That is the end result of cultural anti intellectualism and a contempt for learning, sadly.


I'm not sure that this will be the result. Despite what's happening in Texas, I think that there are people in America who are actually worried about America slipping further behind in the areas of mathematics and science. Some districts are putting an extra effort into encouraging more study in those areas and actively seeking out teachers with qualifications in those fields. That's a bigger problem, I think. The textbook is only one component, but schools also need teachers who have a level of competence in the subject they're teaching, and sadly, those who have expertise in those fields can find much more lucrative employment in private industry or a top level university than they can in the public school system.





kalikshama -> RE: Don't let right-wing Texans put debunked pseudoscience in science textbooks used by millions (8/16/2013 4:58:06 AM)

quote:

When it comes to this issue I believe you are wrong to label the board of education elected officials as right-wing.


Let's call them creationists/evolution critics then. From footnote # 1 in the OP:

Alarm Bells Are Ringing: Creationists Get Influential Positions in Texas Science Textbook Review

...Although 28 individuals got invites to review the proposed new biology textbooks this year, only about a dozen have shown up in Austin this week for the critical final phase of that review. That relatively small overall number of reviewers could give creationists even stronger influence over textbook content. In fact, publishers are making changes to their textbooks based on objections they hear from the review panelists. And that’s happening essentially behind closed doors because the public isn’t able to monitor discussions among the review panelists themselves or between panelists and publishers. The public won’t know about publishers’ changes (or the names of all the review panelists who are in Austin this week) until probably September.

...Following are the six creationists/evolution critics we have identified so far on the biology review teams:

- Raymond Bohlin is vice president of vision outreach for Probe Ministries in Plano and a research fellow for the Seattle-based Discovery Institute. The Discovery Institute promotes the pseudoscientific concept “intelligent design” over evolution. Founded in 1973, Probe works “to present the Gospel to communities, nationally and internationally, by providing life-long opportunities to integrate faith and learning through balanced, biblically based scholarship.” Bohlin has a doctorate in molecular and cell biology from the University of Texas at Dallas, making him a star performer for anti-evolution groups. He is listed as a “Darwin Skeptic” on the Creation Science Hall of Fame website. Probe and the Creation Science Hall of Fame promote a fundamentalist, literal interpretation of the Bible’s creation story. We know that Bohlin is in Austin this week to participate in the biology review panel meetings.

- Walter Bradley is a retired Baylor University professor of engineering who coauthored a book, The Mystery of Life’s Origins in 1984, that essentially launched the “intelligent design” movement. “Intelligent design” suggests a scientific basis for creationism (creationism dressed up in a lab coat). Bradley, founding fellow of the Discovery Institute’s Center for the Renewal of Science and Culture, is also listed as a “Darwin Skeptic” on the Creation Science Hall of Fame website. He is participating in the biology review panel meetings this week.

- Daniel Romo is a chemistry professor at Texas A&M University and is listed as a “Darwin Skeptic” on the Creation Science Hall of Fame website. We don’t know yet whether Romo made it to Austin for the biology review panel meetings.

- Ide Trotter is a longtime standard-bearer for the creationist movement in Texas, both as a source of funding and as a spokesperson for the absurdly named creationist group Texans for Better Science Education. Trotter, listed as a “Darwin Skeptic” on the Creation Science Hall of Fame website, is a veteran of the evolution wars at the SBOE and is participating the biology review panel meetings this week. He testified before the board during the 2003 biology textbook adoption and again in 2009 during the science curriculum adoption. In both instances, Trotter advocated including scientifically discredited “weaknesses” of evolution in Texas science classrooms. Trotter, who has a doctorate in chemical engineering, runs his own investment management company and served as dean of business and professor of finance at Dallas Baptist University. He claims that major scientific discoveries over last century have actually made evolutionary science harder to defend:

“The ball is rolling and it’s going downhill. There are not enough forces on the side of Darwinism to keep pushing it back uphill forever.”

- Richard White, a systems (network) engineer in Austin, testified at an SBOE hearing on the proposed science curriculum standards on March 25, 2009. At the time, he advocated the inclusion of phony “weaknesses” of evolution in Texas science standards:

“…These are all well-known scientific problems with modern evolutionary theory, and they do not exhaust the list. The entire list is a very long one.”

White went on in his testimony to insist that teaching the mainstream scientific consensus concerning evolution without also presenting its alleged “weaknesses” amounted to forcing religious dogma on students. We don’t know whether White is participating in the review panels this week.

- David Zeiger is a seventh-grade teacher at a Christian private school in North Texas. He holds a biochemistry degree from the University of Texas at Dallas. In 2009 he and his wife, Heather, opposed removing from the state’s science curriculum standards the requirement that students learn about so-called “weaknesses” of evolution. Creationists has used that requirement to insist that publishers include discredited arguments challenging evolution, such as supposed “gaps” in the fossil record. We don’t know whether Zeiger is participating the review panels this week.


Read more: http://tfninsider.org/2013/07/30/alarm-bells-are-ringing-creationists-get-influential-positions-in-texas-science-textbook-review/



kalikshama -> RE: Don't let right-wing Texans put debunked pseudoscience in science textbooks used by millions (8/16/2013 5:14:04 AM)

How Texas Inflicts Bad Textbooks on Us

...What happens in Texas doesn't stay in Texas when it comes to textbooks

...When it comes to meddling with school textbooks, Texas is both similar to other states and totally different. It’s hardly the only one that likes to fiddle around with the material its kids study in class. The difference is due to size—4.8 million textbook-reading schoolchildren as of 2011—and the peculiarities of its system of government, in which the State Board of Education is selected in elections that are practically devoid of voters, and wealthy donors can chip in unlimited amounts of money to help their favorites win.

Those favorites are not shrinking violets. In 2009, the nation watched in awe as the state board worked on approving a new science curriculum under the leadership of a chair who believed that “evolution is hooey.” In 2010, the subject was social studies and the teachers tasked with drawing up course guidelines were supposed to work in consultation with “experts” added on by the board, one of whom believed that the income tax was contrary to the word of God in the scriptures.

...Texas originally acquired its power over the nation’s textbook supply because it paid 100 percent of the cost of all public school textbooks, as long as the books in question came from a very short list of board-approved options. The selection process “was grueling and tension-filled,” said Julie McGee, who worked at high levels in several publishing houses before her retirement. “If you didn’t get listed by the state, you got nothing.” On the other side of the coin, David Anderson, who once sold textbooks in the state, said that if a book made the list, even a fairly mediocre salesperson could count on doing pretty well. The books on the Texas list were likely to be mass-produced by the publisher in anticipation of those sales, so other states liked to buy them and take advantage of the economies of scale.

...As a market, the state was so big and influential that national publishers tended to gear their books toward whatever it wanted. Back in 1994, the board requested four hundred revisions in five health textbooks it was considering. The publisher Holt, Rinehart and Winston was the target for the most changes, including the deletion of toll-free numbers for gay and lesbian groups and teenage suicide prevention groups. Holt announced that it would pull its book out of the Texas market rather than comply. (A decade later Holt was back with a new book that eliminated the gay people.)

Given the high cost of developing a single book, the risk of messing with Texas was high. “One of the most expensive is science,” McGee said. “You have to hire medical illustrators to do all the art.” When she was in the business, the cost of producing a new biology book could run to $5 million. “The investments are really great and it’s all on risk.”

Imagine the feelings of the textbook companies—not to mention the science teachers—when, in response to a big push from the Gablers, the state board adopted a rule in 1974 that textbooks mentioning the theory of evolution “should identify it as only one of several explanations of the origins of humankind” and that those treating the subject extensively “shall be edited, if necessary, to clarify that the treatment is theoretical rather than factually verifiable.” The state attorney general eventually issued an opinion that the board’s directive wouldn’t stand up in court, and the rule was repealed. But the beat went on.

Read more: http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2012/jun/21/how-texas-inflicts-bad-textbooks-on-us/?pagination=false



Hillwilliam -> RE: Don't let right-wing Texans put debunked pseudoscience in science textbooks used by millions (8/16/2013 5:59:17 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I am for none of it... but I am not a Texan and have no say... I live in a state that is even worse than Texas and have my own problems... I am, however, for their right to do whatever the majority wants within the law of the land and their state.

Butch

Here's the problem.
Texas is a very large state. (thank you captain obvious, right?)
Due to the size, most textbook publishing companies publish, for distribution to all the states, what Texas wants in their textbooks.
This means that the Texas board is not just deciding whether to keep Texas students ignorant. They're making a decision that will affect students in many of the states.
You said your state has poor education. The Texas board is helping insure that they stay that way so you actually do have a dog in the race.



truckinslave -> RE: Don't let right-wing Texans put debunked pseudoscience in science textbooks used by millions (8/16/2013 7:47:52 AM)

I am still waiting on any specifics whatsoever. Surely their panties are not in such a wad before the facts are in!!!! [sm=doh.gif]



truckinslave -> RE: Don't let right-wing Texans put debunked pseudoscience in science textbooks used by millions (8/16/2013 7:49:47 AM)

quote:

So for you also the election of a state attorney that has no degree in law would be fine?


Well, depending on state law, sure.
Just as it is fine to elect a coke-snorting pothead to the WH



Hillwilliam -> RE: Don't let right-wing Texans put debunked pseudoscience in science textbooks used by millions (8/16/2013 7:51:03 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

So for you also the election of a state attorney that has no degree in law would be fine?


Well, depending on state law, sure.
Just as it is fine to elect a coke-snorting pothead to the WH

Don't talk about Dubya like that.

OOPS, he was an alcoholic, not a pothead.



truckinslave -> RE: Don't let right-wing Texans put debunked pseudoscience in science textbooks used by millions (8/16/2013 8:19:18 AM)

I am personally willing to bet a fair amount of money- based not on facts or even evidence but only observations most would consider meaningless- that he was/is an AA.




Marc2b -> RE: Don't let right-wing Texans put debunked pseudoscience in science textbooks used by millions (8/16/2013 8:28:35 AM)

quote:

Rewriting history is considerably more offensive, but I'm dubious that it's actually more important, particularly in this day and age. The post you've quoted references the fact that a big part of the reason the (Godless Commie) USSR took an early lead in the space race, despite the leg up your own country had gained from getting hold of the majority of the surviving ex nazi rocketry experts, is because of the damage the Snopes Monkey Trial had done to the American public school system's teaching of science a generation earlier.
If you don't teach kids the sciences, then you won't have any of them reading the sciences at sa university level when they graduate, and twenty odd years down the road you'll have a shortage of engineers and theoretical scientists. That is the end result of cultural anti intellectualism and a contempt for learning, sadly.


When Sputnik was launched it so scared the right wing in American that - in one of the great ironies of history - it was they who pushed for increased science education in American classrooms. And they got it. and they were happy with it... until they saw that science included evolution. Oops.



Hillwilliam -> RE: Don't let right-wing Texans put debunked pseudoscience in science textbooks used by millions (8/16/2013 8:32:52 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

I am personally willing to bet a fair amount of money- based not on facts or even evidence but only observations most would consider meaningless- that he was/is an AA.



That's correct.
Alcoholics Anonymous.
Chemical addictions aren't cured. They are controlled.

If a person is an alcoholic today, they will be an alcoholic until they are lowered into the grave.
The good news is that there are support groups and medications to help the person cope and stop drinking.
If that person falls off the wagon, however, the crash is frequently severe.



MrRodgers -> RE: Don't let right-wing Texans put debunked pseudoscience in science textbooks used by millions (8/16/2013 8:38:09 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny


quote:

ORIGINAL: evesgrden
I think if the state can add a chapter on creationism to all the scientific texts, then a chapter on evolution should be added to all religious texts.


I wonder how Constantine would have handled this.

He was the first Texan wasn't he...well, wasn't he ? I mean he didn't just pick text books, he practically wrote THE book and a whole new one at that. Soon and for centuries, they wanted no part of the bible and even began to prohibit its reading.



truckinslave -> RE: Don't let right-wing Texans put debunked pseudoscience in science textbooks used by millions (8/16/2013 8:39:44 AM)

Been a F of B for over 20 years.
I have seen those severe crashes- including death from alcohol-induced heart attack- the first night off the wagon.



MrRodgers -> RE: Don't let right-wing Texans put debunked pseudoscience in science textbooks used by millions (8/16/2013 9:04:26 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

After Jesse Ventura and Al Franken, I'm supposed to take seriously the notion that Minnesotans are capable of seriousness?

Seriously. You jest.

Yea, I understand they believe we were hatched from eggs. I mean anybody pick on my message...I'll pick on your messenger.



MrRodgers -> RE: Don't let right-wing Texans put debunked pseudoscience in science textbooks used by millions (8/16/2013 10:39:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I get a kick out of people like you that think a democracy is only a democracy if others agree with you. Will they don't agree with you and if they are within their legal rights to demand a change to the text books then they have a right to do it. To deny this right would be against the Constitution. Unless you want us to turn into Egypt then the majority will rule...so get over it or join the revolution.

Butch


So for you also the election of a state attorney that has no degree in law would be fine? And once elected he could decide to never persecute his political friends and this would also be fine?

I don't like the analogy here. If he is a practicing attorney, then had to have a law degree and pass the state bar and I think a qualification for the job. Your example on who to or not to prosecute is not subject to a vote but an individual person's decision.

The constitution presumably allows great deference to the states to do as they wish so the Texas school system is within the law. The battle therefore is in the hearts and minds of the larger constituency...parents.

It is up to the parents to take action through the state and at home with their children assuming it should mean that much to them.



eulero83 -> RE: Don't let right-wing Texans put debunked pseudoscience in science textbooks used by millions (8/16/2013 1:08:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers


quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I get a kick out of people like you that think a democracy is only a democracy if others agree with you. Will they don't agree with you and if they are within their legal rights to demand a change to the text books then they have a right to do it. To deny this right would be against the Constitution. Unless you want us to turn into Egypt then the majority will rule...so get over it or join the revolution.

Butch


So for you also the election of a state attorney that has no degree in law would be fine? And once elected he could decide to never persecute his political friends and this would also be fine?

I don't like the analogy here. If he is a practicing attorney, then had to have a law degree and pass the state bar and I think a qualification for the job. Your example on who to or not to prosecute is not subject to a vote but an individual person's decision.

The constitution presumably allows great deference to the states to do as they wish so the Texas school system is within the law. The battle therefore is in the hearts and minds of the larger constituency...parents.

It is up to the parents to take action through the state and at home with their children assuming it should mean that much to them.


I'm criticizing two different things:
1) The board that has the political control over education is also entitled to take decision also on tecnical matters that go over their knowledge. I'm sure this is the law, but the law is wrong, like it would be wrong to have a state attorney that has no law degree as he needs that knowledge to do that job. If a state would allow this, maybe it goes along with the costitution but it's a crazy choice.
2) The board like a state attorney when elected was also entitled of the trust of the poeple that will do the best interest of the state, in this case the board is abusing of this trust and makes the interests of politician/religious institution who endorsed them at the expenses of the people of the state, as someone pointed out there are big money in the pot and they are reducing the quality of education insted of increasing it, imposing to teach a lie.

I don't think that corruption is a matter just for the victims, so it's not about the parents it's about civilization.

Said this for what concerns me texas people can decide to belive that earth was created 6/3/1836.




kdsub -> RE: Don't let right-wing Texans put debunked pseudoscience in science textbooks used by millions (8/16/2013 1:23:48 PM)

What about California that is even larger... or Florida or New York that is just a little smaller? I do not believe because one state wants creationism in their books all will have to have them... Not only that but there are many publishers in this world who provide books for the other 260 million of so people and their children that are not of Texas.

Butch



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