RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized...

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njlauren -> RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized... (8/17/2013 4:11:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WarMachine904 quote: ORIGINAL: evesgrden quote: Personally, I object to the idea of a male sub or a female dominant. I can't understand how either can exist. To me it is like a parallel universe. Well that's really odd coming from a military man. If you want to see serious submission in action, check out the military. They have it down to a science. You became a male sub the second you signed up. No way I'd join the military. Be told what to do all the time? When to eat when to sleep? When to talk, if I'm at liberty to talk? No friggin way. Would I be a civilian who provides service to the military? Sure. Would I give my life for my country? Yes. If you're in the military, you're submissive. I don't get off on the power and control (well in play etc I do) but outside the bedroom, I just am in control. I make good decisions. It's not that i'm brilliant by a long shot. I'm just pretty objective with respect to what I know, what I don't know and how to weigh out pros and cons, cost of errors and look at the bigger picture. Power is handed to me and I'll delegate it back or elsewhere if there's someone who can make an equal or better decision. So it's who I just find I am. Perhaps as you mature and broaden your horizons you will be able to understand how this exists without being in a parallel universe. Using your logic and example, EVERYONE is a sub including you. Do you adhere to any rules or laws whatsoever? Of course you do. Otherwise you would wind up in prison. Then you submit to the authority of the government just as everyone does. Nice try, but the argument isn't really applicable. In basic training they basically break you of any kind of resistance and you are in fact the ultimate sub, you don't sleep, eat, or take a BM without someone else's blessing, and you are broken to accept the orders of higher ups without thinking, it is the nature of the beast. The military hierarchy is not based on the individual, it is based on hierarchy and following orders without necessarily thinking about them. The military operates in its own environment and the basic premise is obedience to authority. It obviously has its own weirdness, in that in any given link of the military, other than a buck private or whatever, everyone both has people they order and people they take orders from, it is kind of akin to a leather situation where a dominant has a sub who in turn has a sub of their own.

WarMachine904 -> RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized... (8/17/2013 4:13:00 PM)
For the love of God, you can't be serious. I can object to whatever I choose to. That is my right. Period. End of discussion. And what I decried is someone forcing their beliefs on another. Which I am absolutley not doing. I could care less what you believe or object to. It is entirely within your perogative, and does not affect me whatsoever.

hlen5 -> RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized... (8/17/2013 4:15:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: njlauren In basic training they basically break you of any kind of resistance and you are in fact the ultimate sub, you don't sleep, eat, or take a BM without someone else's blessing, and you are broken to accept the orders of higher ups without thinking, it is the nature of the beast. The military hierarchy is not based on the individual, it is based on hierarchy and following orders without necessarily thinking about them. The military operates in its own environment and the basic premise is obedience to authority. It obviously has its own weirdness, in that in any given link of the military, other than a buck private or whatever, everyone both has people they order and people they take orders from, it is kind of akin to a leather situation where a dominant has a sub who in turn has a sub of their own. Lauren, Was just passing by the thread and I saw this post. Did you get your information first-hand in the military?

njlauren -> RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized... (8/17/2013 4:15:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact quote: ORIGINAL: WarMachine904 Exactly. It's not that I don't comprehend the qualities that makes one dominant, I just find them to be masculine qualities. Just as I see submission as a feminine quality. I was not suggesting by any stretch, that you are not legitimately a female dominant. You can be whatever you choose to be, or more importantly whatever you truly are. But what everyone seems to continue to miss is the fact that the ONLY reason I stated my belief was to demonstrate that it is possible to have intelligent discourse with someone who has beliefs that are completely contradictory to my own, without resorting to the kindergarten antics that go on here. And honestly I think that the posters that insist that their position is absolute, and must be mandated on others, are really insecure in their own beliefs. I find all this "You're not a true (insert whatever you like)" mentality is laughable. I do however find intelligent discussion to be stimulating and insightful. Well, we're not insecure. See, a bunch of us have been where you are and we remember how silly we were then, so that makes us laugh when we see it again. Hey, back in the day, I was an asshole. I'm a leather chick from way back and I spouted stupid shit from time to time. I grew up. You will, too. quote: _____________________________ Not really on topic, but I couldn't resist. There was a power struggle going on in a body, and each part was claiming the right to lead. The brain said because it was intelligence, the seat of it, it should be the one to lead. The arms and hands said they did things, so they should lead. The legs and feet said they got the person around, the eyes said they gave vision, and all claimed the right to lead. Finally this little voice pipped up and said it should lead, and it was the anus. At this everyone laughed, and the anus got mad, and squeezed up type, and soon the brain was feverish, the arms and legs ached and couldn't move, the eyes were swimming...and soon they relented. Moral of the story: To be a leader, you don't need to be a brain, just an asshole:) Sorry, LP, most definitely not aimed at you, not one little bit, you are one of my idols:)

Lucylastic -> RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized... (8/17/2013 4:19:00 PM)
For the love of God, you can't be serious. I can object to whatever I choose to. That is my right. Period. End of discussion. WHat you cant comprehend is YOUR issue. I cant comprehend quantum physics.... IF I wanna talk about quantum physics, its a good idea if I use my brain to learn to be able to discuss it with people who DO know the difference and the facts.

WarMachine904 -> RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized... (8/17/2013 4:21:04 PM)
I am not debating that the structure of the military requires discipline and obedience. I am also not debating that recruit training is a perfect example of behavior modification. In fact it was the basis behind the topic of the other thread I started. However, in the military this dynamic does not exist to promote increased arrousal for either the ones giving orders, or the ones carrying out orders. This dynamic exists purely to promote mission accomplishment and to save lives. I do not view the two arguments in the same light. But to each their own.

njlauren -> RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized... (8/17/2013 4:23:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WarMachine904 For the love of God, you can't be serious. I can object to whatever I choose to. That is my right. Period. End of discussion. And what I decried is someone forcing their beliefs on another. Which I am absolutley not doing. I could care less what you believe or object to. It is entirely within your perogative, and does not affect me whatsoever. To object means you are saying outright that what they are doing is wrong and you have the right to judge that, you can object to what you want, but it doesn't mean you are right. It is like what Thomas Paine wrote about the world tolerance, he said tolerance and intolerance were equally bad. Intolerance in his eyes was someone who didn't like something, and felt they had the right to show that displeasure and regulate whatever it is they didn't like; Tolerance was someone didn't like something, but were so 'magnanimous' that they felt it wasn't their right to intervene or say anything, usually with an internal pat on the back. What Paine said was both were rooted in the same problem, that the person had that right to judge in the first place, whatever their actions were. Objecting means you are saying someone else is doing something wrong, that you have the right to tell them so, based on your belief. It is very easy to say something like 'this is my belief', but what you are doing is outright telling others they don't have a right to themselves, their own identity, because you don't like it, which is bullshit, pure and simple. You might live in a world where masculine=control and dominance and female=submission and obediance, but that doesn't make it real..and it is also quite frankly is dangerous, because people claiming belief as you do do all kinds of shitty things. BTW, your ideas of masculine and feminine are about 500 years out of date, more in line with the taliban then what men and women really are.

njlauren -> RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized... (8/17/2013 4:28:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hlen5 quote: ORIGINAL: njlauren In basic training they basically break you of any kind of resistance and you are in fact the ultimate sub, you don't sleep, eat, or take a BM without someone else's blessing, and you are broken to accept the orders of higher ups without thinking, it is the nature of the beast. The military hierarchy is not based on the individual, it is based on hierarchy and following orders without necessarily thinking about them. The military operates in its own environment and the basic premise is obedience to authority. It obviously has its own weirdness, in that in any given link of the military, other than a buck private or whatever, everyone both has people they order and people they take orders from, it is kind of akin to a leather situation where a dominant has a sub who in turn has a sub of their own. Lauren, Was just passing by the thread and I saw this post. Did you get your information first-hand in the military? I never served in the military, but both have worked with a lot of people who did, who were lifetime military, and also as part of an advanced degree did a lot of study of the history and structure of the military (it is often standard in management programs to look at the military). The military has evolve a lot, but the basic code of it isn't, it is a power hierarchy where despite all the army of one crap and such, is still based in principles of automatic obedience to orders and giving up personal control to others. Even with the changes since WWII and Vietnam where following orders was no longer automatic, the reality of the military is you don't obey orders, even ones you believe are wrong, they are going to skewer you for breaking the chain of command and disobeying, pure and simple. It is interesting, I ran into a couple of ex Navy Seals over the years, and they told me that one of the things they did with the Seals early on was to move them out of the chain of the Navy hierarchy and have them reporting in high up, because the way the SEALS operate is fundamentally in conflict with the hierarchy of the standard military.

WarMachine904 -> RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized... (8/17/2013 4:29:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: njlauren To object means you are saying outright that what they are doing is wrong And that is where the disconnect is in this argument. By objecting, I am not judging or saying it is wrong. I am saying that it is wrong for ME. And that truly IS within my rights.

evesgrden -> RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized... (8/17/2013 4:33:01 PM)
quote: In basic training they basically break you of any kind of resistance and you are in fact the ultimate sub, you don't sleep, eat, or take a BM without someone else's blessing, and you are broken to accept the orders of higher ups without thinking, it is the nature of the beast. Exactly. I had never given it any thought, but it was first mentioned to me by a fellow I saw for quite a while. He was a Marine. Captain, Force Recon in Vietnam. No one can clean like a Marine can. If that boy said the kitchen was clean, that sucker was CLEAN. He had a little OCD about cleanliness and tidiness. I just thought it to be a wonderful constructive way to deal with stress. Some folks drink, some have hissy fits and slam doors etc; he cleaned. Very cool indeed :) I digress....

MissToYouRedux -> RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized... (8/17/2013 5:33:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WarMachine904 Personally, I object to the idea of a male sub or a female dominant. I can't understand how either can exist. To me it is like a parallel universe. Objection overruled. [;)] There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy. - Hamlet (1.5.166-7), Hamlet to Horatio In my experience, military men and men in law enforcement make wonderful submissives precisely because they understand chain of command so well. [:)] To be fair, though, this part of your answer is also duly noted: quote: ORIGINAL: WarMachine904 HOWEVER, I was also raised with enough class, and have enough life experience to accept that not everyone share's my view, and I am perfectly fine with that. I will not tell a female Domme that she is not a "true" dominant, or tell a male sub that he should not allow a woman to control him. Why? Because everyone is entitled to live as they wish, call themselves whatever they choose, and exercise their right to free speech regardless of what I think. The exception being that by exercising those freedoms you infringe upon another's ability to exercise their freedoms.

WarMachine904 -> RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized... (8/17/2013 6:23:34 PM)
And that is precisely what I was talking about. Thank you, Marie.

LadyPact -> RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized... (8/17/2013 7:11:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: njlauren Sorry, LP, most definitely not aimed at you, not one little bit, you are one of my idols:) No problem whatsoever, lauren. It's been a while since I heard that one. [:)] To the OP, Hon, I really don't know what to tell you except that you don't get out much. If you've seriously never met a Dominant woman, you've either led a really sheltered life or you've gone about it with your eyes closed. However, there's some really good news. You're in an excellent location to actually find and meet Dominant women right in your own local community. Right there in your own backyard there are females who honestly feel just like you. They just don't stand up to take a leak.

WarMachine904 -> RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized... (8/17/2013 7:35:23 PM)
LP, I don't know how many different ways you want me to say it. But I grow tired of reiterating it. Think what you like. But thank you for particpating in the discussion.

njlauren -> RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized... (8/17/2013 8:32:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WarMachine904 I am not debating that the structure of the military requires discipline and obedience. I am also not debating that recruit training is a perfect example of behavior modification. In fact it was the basis behind the topic of the other thread I started. However, in the military this dynamic does not exist to promote increased arrousal for either the ones giving orders, or the ones carrying out orders. This dynamic exists purely to promote mission accomplishment and to save lives. I do not view the two arguments in the same light. But to each their own. It is submission, pure and simple, no, it has nothing to do with eroticism, but then again, there are people in D/s who do so for non erotic reasons as well. The fundamental point is that depending on your rank, you are subordinate to others and are in the submissive role. You talk about discipline and duty, many lifestyle leather people use almost the exact same language shrug.

njlauren -> RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized... (8/17/2013 8:37:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WarMachine904 quote: ORIGINAL: njlauren To object means you are saying outright that what they are doing is wrong And that is where the disconnect is in this argument. By objecting, I am not judging or saying it is wrong. I am saying that it is wrong for ME. And that truly IS within my rights. The problem with your words is your are objecting to something that has nothing to do with you; If you are saying that you aren't sub and could never submit to a woman, that is one thing, but what you are saying is you object to the entire concept of sub makes and dominant females, and that is what is wrong, because you are basically telling others that because you can't conceive of it, because 'dominance is masculine and submission is female' (which, by the way is misogynistic to say the least and insulting, it is no different than someone saying they believe blacks are inferior to whites, try saying that and see how much your 'in my opinion'). You have every right to your beliefs, but that doesn't mean that you won't get called on them, especially since de facto you are saying that a sub male is less then a male and a dominant female isn't a woman or feminine, which is quite honestly is insulting to everyone who doesn't fit your narrow view of things.

WarMachine904 -> RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized... (8/17/2013 8:59:21 PM)
SMH. For the last time...I DO NOT AGREE WITH YOU, NOR DO I NEED YOU TO AGREE WITH ME. I respectfully agree to diagree. Why do you think that you are going to change my beliefs? I am fine with the fact that you don't share my beliefs. I don't lose sleep about it. I can exist with out pushing my views on others. Your point of view does not threaten my existence, or how I view the natural order of things. So I simply agree to disagree, and we go about out lives. Is that so difficult to grasp?

LadyPact -> RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized... (8/17/2013 10:09:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WarMachine904 LP, I don't know how many different ways you want me to say it. But I grow tired of reiterating it. Think what you like. But thank you for particpating in the discussion. Another quote from the movie...... "Stupid. Ignorant like a child. Like a baby. Don't know what to do." Five years from today, how will you see yourself? I have heard your words before. Race, religion, gender...... Bigotry, still. I hope, for your sake, you learn.

AAkasha -> RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized... (8/17/2013 10:37:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact quote: ORIGINAL: WarMachine904 LP, I don't know how many different ways you want me to say it. But I grow tired of reiterating it. Think what you like. But thank you for particpating in the discussion. Another quote from the movie...... "Stupid. Ignorant like a child. Like a baby. Don't know what to do." Five years from today, how will you see yourself? I have heard your words before. Race, religion, gender...... Bigotry, still. I hope, for your sake, you learn. He has already stated several times he does not care what you do in your personal relationships. He just doesn't personally understand or grasp it. This is not bigotry. Don't make all femdoms look like lunatics. Save it for the male doms that come here with Gor shit and say all women are born slaves. This guy is articulate. You don't have to be an advocate for something to be tolerant of it. He has expressed patience and tolerance every step of the way, and the femdoms have come back looking unhinged and boderline loopy. Let it go. Akasha

descrite -> RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized... (8/18/2013 3:17:40 AM)
Wow. What a whole lot of ignorance on display. CP-- officers don't have stripes. And yes, I've had female superiors. I defer to Jack Nicholson's character's comment on this, in "A Few Good Men." Being in the military necessitates being subordinate at one time or another (most of the time, in fact); being subordinate in no way means you are submissive. Anyone who doesn't understand the difference between those things doesn't understand much of anything at all about power dynamics. Or probably physics, algebra, or chemistry, for that matter. OP, to answer your...OP: - It is useful, when discussing any topic, to have a shared taxonomy; if we all agree on the meaning of terms, then we can converse and debate and share ideas and whatnot. If we don't even have the same language (when I say, "blue," I mean the small, furry mammal that purrs when you pet it...and you have no idea what the fuck I'm babbling about, because my words are asinine), then we can't communicate in a meaningful manner (literally-- our meanings don't match up). So, when discussing BDSM, if all agree that "topping," means "to dominate," then we can use the term in conversation without having to use the definition and a host of examples each time we mention it. - However...I know exactly what you mean about absolutist positions. I don't get it, either. I don't care what anyone says, does, or believes...right up to the point where it directly impacts me (there are some gray areas...like when someone chooses not to bathe, or conversely, to wear too much cologne)...I don't understand people who are so intolerant that they want to prohibit certain ways of thinking or speaking or acting. My brain just doesn't grasp the reason for that. I find it appalling, especially when people want to use it to justify literally killing someone else (religion is the best example: "My invisible, magical sky-ghost is different than your invisible, magical sky-ghost....you must die!"). Neat thread. Thanks for launching it.

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