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Why get off welfare? - 8/22/2013 6:35:34 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		An interesting article from the LA Times.

I've mentioned this stuff a few times around here (with predictably Alinsky-like responses) but it's uncommon to full find the full range of the gravy train compiled as it is here.

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/commentary/la-oe-tanner-welfare-work-pay-20130822,0,3840208.story


quote:


Why get off welfare?
In fact, in 33 states and the District of Columbia, welfare pays more than an $8-an-hour job. In 12 states, including California, as well as the District of Columbia, the welfare package is more generous than a $15-an-hour job. In Hawaii, Massachusetts, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Rhode Island, Vermont and Washington, D.C., welfare pays more than a $20-an-hour job, or more than 2.75 times the minimum wage.

But how does the package compare with salaries for everyday jobs? In California and 38 other states, it pays more than the starting wage for a secretary. California isn't one of the 10 states (plus the District of Columbia.) where welfare pays more than the average pretax first-year wage for a teacher, nor is it among the three most generous states, where welfare benefits exceed the entry-level salary for a computer programmer. But California welfare benefits can still exceed 96% of the state's median salary.


It's right and proper for a nation such as ours to have a safety net, but when we create a comfy hammock, there is a serious problem that needs to be resolved


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RE: Why get off welfare? - 8/22/2013 7:16:46 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

It's right and proper for a nation such as ours to have a safety net, but when we create a comfy hammock, there is a serious problem that needs to be resolved


someone making $15/hr and working 40hr/wk would earn $31k.. imo the problem with comparing this stuff is
(a) how realistic is getting a job at that $15/hr wage?
(b) how realistic is it that it would be a full time job, not part-time at 25 or 29 hours/week if you are lucky (especially with obamacare)..
(c) whatever job the person gets, how much tax will be taken? what will the actually take-home pay be?
(d) whatever job the person gets, what other deductions will eat away at that after-tax pay? how much of a bite will obamacare be?
(e) whatever job the person gets, is a vehicle & insurance required to get there and back in a reasonable time, or can they take the bus (without 3 transfers taking 3 hours)?
(f) whatever job the person gets, what type of wardrobe is required? will they have to buy some acceptable clothing for said job..

I don't see the equivalent of $15/hr as a comfy hammock, its called the "working poor" for a reason, especially in certain expensive areas of CA.. Now if you want people on welfare to get a job, then let them get it without having a big chunk chopped away by taxes and other deductions.. so imo, no tax or other deductions.. let them catch up a bit with some savings so they have that if they have some unexpected expense.. get them back to work by doing that and once they get promoted and hit a higher salary, then they can start to pay taxes again..

And something the article doesn't say, how many of those people that are working/have a job get additional benefits like Section 8 help, etc, etc? are they also considered to be "on welfare"?
"Census figures show that only 2.6% of full-time workers are poor, compared with 23.9% of adults who do not work."
How many of the non-working in that stat make money from selling drugs, or other crime or working under the table? it does not say those people are on welfare, just that they don't officially "work"..
jmo..

eta- imo, people that get a tax deduction for their home mortgage are getting a form of "welfare" also.. funny that few homeowners consider it that tho..

< Message edited by tj444 -- 8/22/2013 7:24:18 PM >

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RE: Why get off welfare? - 8/22/2013 7:30:15 PM   
TheHeretic


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Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		Well, TJ, when I was busting my ass for $15 an hour, and getting up at 1:30 in the morning and driving 45 miles to do it, I'd have considered it pretty cushy to get that on direct deposit, without ever leaving the house.

The question about Section 8 suggests a reread of the article would be in order.

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RE: Why get off welfare? - 8/22/2013 7:47:23 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Well, TJ, when I was busting my ass for $15 an hour, and getting up at 1:30 in the morning and driving 45 miles to do it, I'd have considered it pretty cushy to get that on direct deposit, without ever leaving the house.


sure.. but it has always seemed entirely unfair to tax anyone that does not even earn enough to live (with the govt basically taking food from your mouth! ).... its not just unfair, its a disincentive (as the article points out).. imo it needs to change (& its the tax & deductions that needs changing most).. I think if the govt did that, they would see people getting off.. although the longer someone is on welfare/not working, the harder it is for them to find a job.. I don't know what the rules with welfare are, if they can work part-time up to a certain amount of income without getting benefits clawed back or cut off.. but imo there are ways to use a carrot, rather than a stick to get people off.. of course that presumes there are jobs available for them.. (there may be more now but not many at the worst times of this recession/depression)

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RE: Why get off welfare? - 8/22/2013 8:31:38 PM   
DomKen


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An op-ed by a Cato Institute "senior fellow." Funny how he claims these outrageous levels of "welfare" but not once does he actually back up the claims with any actual data.

Now pretend that he isn't grossly distorting something, which anyone with a brain knows he is, A $15 an hour job equals $30k a year gross (assuming a 2000 hour work year which is standard). Take out at least 15% in various taxes leaves $25,500. Now the average rent in the state of California for a 2 bedroom apartment (all federal "welfare" is paid only to parents of children) is $1341 which comes out to $16,092 a year. Which leaves the $15 an hour welfare recipient with $9,408 for utilities, transportation, clothes and food for a year. Does that strike anyone as a cushy existence? Would anyone care to try supporting themselves and a couple of kids for a year on that?

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RE: Why get off welfare? - 8/22/2013 9:04:46 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
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From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline 		An attempt at being civil prevents me from what I would like to say.

Bottom line, I know quite a few single parents, young people and others who busted their asses to get off assistance.

The article is bullshit, since no one on the programs can actually afford to live where the alleged welfare income should allow them to live.

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RE: Why get off welfare? - 8/22/2013 9:09:34 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		Y'know, TJ, "earning enough to live" is complete weasel statement. I've lived on $15 an hour, $8 an hour, and no reliable income at all. It's all a matter of how you structure your life and lifestyle.

I do wish the author would have gone into some of the other benefits that can be milked, like the $2,500 car repair allowance, but I understand the desire to keep it all in the documented realm of what the majority can pull down.

There are participants for whom this has been the family business for generations, and the frauds accomplished there can be staggering.

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RE: Why get off welfare? - 8/22/2013 9:11:56 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		Texas ain't on the list, JLF, and it's funny how they have a much lower caseload populationwise, than other states with sweeter packages. It's almost like people want to get back on their own feet.

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That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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RE: Why get off welfare? - 8/22/2013 9:24:15 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Y'know, TJ, "earning enough to live" is complete weasel statement. I've lived on $15 an hour, $8 an hour, and no reliable income at all. It's all a matter of how you structure your life and lifestyle.


did you have a couple of kids to support on that too tho? sure, its a lot easier if you are single and can live in communally, or couch hop, etc.. If it is just a matter of structure, why do so many kids go to school hungry? they say 1 out of 5 do..

http://www.nokidhungry.org/problem/hunger-facts

eta- it just occurred to me that you called me a weasel!!!

< Message edited by tj444 -- 8/22/2013 9:44:07 PM >

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RE: Why get off welfare? - 8/22/2013 9:25:37 PM   
Real0ne


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Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

An interesting article from the LA Times.

I've mentioned this stuff a few times around here (with predictably Alinsky-like responses) but it's uncommon to full find the full range of the gravy train compiled as it is here.

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/commentary/la-oe-tanner-welfare-work-pay-20130822,0,3840208.story


quote:


Why get off welfare?
In fact, in 33 states and the District of Columbia, welfare pays more than an $8-an-hour job. In 12 states, including California, as well as the District of Columbia, the welfare package is more generous than a $15-an-hour job. In Hawaii, Massachusetts, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Rhode Island, Vermont and Washington, D.C., welfare pays more than a $20-an-hour job, or more than 2.75 times the minimum wage.

But how does the package compare with salaries for everyday jobs? In California and 38 other states, it pays more than the starting wage for a secretary. California isn't one of the 10 states (plus the District of Columbia.) where welfare pays more than the average pretax first-year wage for a teacher, nor is it among the three most generous states, where welfare benefits exceed the entry-level salary for a computer programmer. But California welfare benefits can still exceed 96% of the state's median salary.


It's right and proper for a nation such as ours to have a safety net, but when we create a comfy hammock, there is a serious problem that needs to be resolved




do you rally and twulee think that is by accident? When we read history these are the things we need to look at because it tells the "unwritten" story of what really went on. Of course you risk being labeled a tinfoiler. Badge of honor now days considering the constant exposure of the troughers now that they can no longer hide in the shadows.



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RE: Why get off welfare? - 8/22/2013 9:34:20 PM   
Lucylastic


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Status: offline 		Obviously not reading his own post
For the purposes of this study, we assumed a hypothetical family consisting of a mother with two children, ages 1 and 4, and calculated the combined total of seven benefits that family could receive in all 50 states.


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RE: Why get off welfare? - 8/22/2013 9:45:35 PM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
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Status: offline 		Two things...isn't this assistance temporary now ? I thought it was two years. Secondly, it was my impression that states set the welfare so this all set according to their tax structure, so this is not federal assistance.

Comparisons: From the very beginning of AFDC (aid to families with dependent children) an estimated $500-$600 billion in direct welfare payments through 2008. TARP was $700 billion in one shot not counting all of the rest to AIG etc. and other banks.

The CATO Inst. also informs that at least $1 trillion every 10 years is paid in direct subsidies and tax favors in corporate welfare.

< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 8/22/2013 9:46:05 PM >

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RE: Why get off welfare? - 8/22/2013 9:49:15 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


did you have a couple of kids to support on that too tho?



Depended on who I was fucking at the time. At one point, there were three, all under age 5, at another, a couple teenagers, and back when I was making a whole $5.15 an hour, I was the only income for a mother and 4 younger siblings. In every case, we'd have all been living a lot better if I'd been able to just collect, without going out and working for it.

And yeah. For a couple of rough patches growing up, I was one of those kids who went to school hungry.

How about you? Got any experience with living dirt poor, or are you just going off what you've seen on MSNBC special reports?

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If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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RE: Why get off welfare? - 8/22/2013 9:50:55 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		blame n shame, its what the koch suckers at cato do best.
ANd the fuckers still wanna cut 6 million offa SNAP
I bet alinsky never dreamed of this level of crap put out
this level of shit propaganda hasnt been seen since before godwins law was thought up

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RE: Why get off welfare? - 8/22/2013 9:56:21 PM   
jlf1961


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From: Somewhere Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Texas ain't on the list, JLF, and it's funny how they have a much lower caseload populationwise, than other states with sweeter packages. It's almost like people want to get back on their own feet.


I was not pointing my anger at you Heretic, but at the article.

Their are some programs I have a problem with, such as cash assistance for use on anything. I have seen a lot of "Section 8" housing in various places, and though they are kept in good condition, some of the people living in those units would tend to make me choose a tent in lion country covered with raw meat.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

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RE: Why get off welfare? - 8/22/2013 10:01:06 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

How about you? Got any experience with living dirt poor, or are you just going off what you've seen on MSNBC special reports?

dude.. I grew up on a small farm.. when I was growing up we didn't even have running water, we had an outhouse not a comfy indoor toilet (& let me tell ya, winters were freakin' COLD!!!).. we did not go hungry tho (did I mention I grew up on a farm?).. my mother always planted a huge garden and we had a big freezer full of homegrown veggies.. and some of our chopped up "pets" too.. I became a vegetarian cuz of those "pets".. And if it was not for my mother working her ass off as a nurse to help support the farm,.. and working her ass off on the farm.. and taking care of us kids.. we would not have been able to survive on the farm income alone for much of the time I was growing up.. so yeah, I grew up literally dirt poor..

eta- my mother told me a few years before she died that if she could live those years over, she never would have married my father and lived a hard life like that..

< Message edited by tj444 -- 8/22/2013 10:05:42 PM >

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RE: Why get off welfare? - 8/22/2013 10:06:37 PM   
TheHeretic


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From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

this level of shit propaganda hasnt been seen since before godwins law was thought up



And you are basing that claim on what, Lucy? That it doesn't fit your prejudices?

Time limits, BTW, are easily turned off by those who understand the system. Just say the secret magic words.

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If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
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RE: Why get off welfare? - 8/22/2013 10:07:10 PM   
evesgrden


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quote:

'know, TJ, "earning enough to live" is complete weasel statement. I've lived on $15 an hour, $8 an hour, and no reliable income at all. It's all a matter of how you structure your life and lifestyle.


and that paid for daycare and health insurance for your kid? Hope your kid wasn't a diabetic or had asthma.

Ohhhhh.. no kid, just you.

nm

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RE: Why get off welfare? - 8/22/2013 10:12:55 PM   
TheHeretic


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From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: evesgrden

quote:

'know, TJ, "earning enough to live" is complete weasel statement. I've lived on $15 an hour, $8 an hour, and no reliable income at all. It's all a matter of how you structure your life and lifestyle.


and that paid for daycare and health insurance for your kid? Hope your kid wasn't a diabetic or had asthma.

Ohhhhh.. no kid, just you.

nm



Read the article, drop the drama. And a kid with disabilities takes you up into the ranges of benefits they never put into the math here.



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If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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RE: Why get off welfare? - 8/22/2013 11:00:51 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		15 x 2080 (assuming no overtime) = 31200

Someone did rent, leaving just under 10K.

The average cost of full-time infant child care in California is more than $11,500, almost double average tuition and fees at a public college, a study released Tuesday concludes.
.....
Median annual income for a single mother with children in California in 2009 was $28,579. That means infant child care ate up 40.5 percent of median income, care for a four-year-old ate up 28.8 percent of median income and school-age care, 10.2 percent.

http://www.bizjournals.com/sacramento/news/2011/03/15/california-child-care-double-college.html?page=all

Yes, people dont just jump off of welfare for just those reasons. Personally, I dont blame them. Even a 15 dollar an hour job cant afford a decent living. Even if no one gets sick....

Just another example of how the poor are kept poor.

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