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RE: Why get off welfare? - 8/23/2013 1:30:36 PM

mnottertail

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

When I made Sergeant, I was raking in $535 bucks a month.

I wonder what a private e-nothing gets nowadays to get hassled in boot?

Somewhat more than a sgt back when.
E5 over six with a wife and two kids gets about 50k before taxes when he is in country. Of course long gone are the days when 50k was any serious money for the bodybag lotto.
I know an e6 cook who just got out who is going back as a civilian contracor(food service)at 100k...what side of the bread is the butter on in the sandbox?

Yeah, who thinks that shit up, a goddamn botulism swilling cookie slopping powered eggs as a (Spec 6 if a cookie, right, they dont get hard stripes until 7....) and the government hires him a twice the price thru a contractor.......how the fuck are we saving money on that deal, civilians attached to the military have never made any fuckin sense to me, huntie.

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Post #: 61

RE: Why get off welfare? - 8/23/2013 1:32:09 PM

Real0ne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

As a result, if Congress and state legislatures are serious about reducing welfare dependence and rewarding work, they should consider strengthening welfare work requirements, removing exemptions and narrowing the definition of work. Moreover, states should shrink the gap between the value of welfare and work by reducing current benefit levels and tightening eligibility requirements.

The figure of federal welfare benefits going to the non working poor is about 10% of all federal welfare spending.

That works out to be about $44 Billion dollars out of $3.6 Trillion Dollars. That's about 1.2 % of the federal budget.

-------------

The author isn't very specific in his solution. What does strengthening "welfare work requirements" mean? As others have noted, maybe it would actually be more helpful to raise the minimum wage.

compared to our eternal WAR on anything that sounds good at the time.

Obama Cuts Domestic Spending and Increases Military Corporate Welfare

President Obama’s decision to increase military spending this year and in the future will result in the greatest administrative military spending since World War II. This decision is being made in spite of continued evidence of extreme waste, fraud, abuse, and corporate welfare in the military budget. At the same time, spending on “non-security” domestic programs such as education, nutrition, energy, and transportation will be frozen, resulting in inflationary cuts to essential services for the US public over the upcoming years.
Student Researchers:

Molly Lipinski and Meghan Brandts (St. Cloud State University)

Faculty Evaluator:

Julie Andrzejewski (St. Cloud State University)

While these domestic programs constitute only 17 percent of the total federal spending, they will sustain all of the proposed cuts. Jo Comerford, executive director of the National Priorities Project, states, “[Obama’s] proposal caps non-security spending at $447 billion for each of the next three fiscal years. During that time, inflation will erode the purchasing power of that total; requiring cuts in services in each successive year.” The consequences of cutting domestic spending will result in a further increase in the gap between the rich and the poor.

In contrast, military spending is roughly 55 percent of the discretionary spending in the current fiscal year, and will increase even more next year. According to the Office of Management and Budget’s projections, the military budget will increase an additional $522 billion over the next decade. Tom Engelhardt points out, “Here’s an American reality: the Pentagon is our true welfare state, the weapons makers are our real ‘welfare queens,’ and we never stop shoveling money their way.”

There is widespread and continuous waste, fraud, and abuse by the Pentagon and by military contractors resulting in welfare for the rich. William Astore, a retired lieutenant colonel with the US Air Force, concludes, “When it comes to our nation’s military affairs, ignorance is not bliss. What’s remarkable then, given the permanent state of war in which we find ourselves, is how many Americans seem content not to know.”

The public never hears about war spending in the corporate media and how much everything actually costs. Several examples highlight the extent of abuse.

A single future weapons system is now estimated to cost the American taxpayer almost one-third of what the Obama administration’s health care plan is expected to cost over a decade. Originally expected to cost $50 million, the estimated cost today just for one F-35 plane is $113 million. The marines, the air force, and the navy are planning to buy a combined 2,450 of F-35s, which would cost more than $323 billion.

< Message edited by Real0ne -- 8/23/2013 1:33:38 PM >

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Post #: 62

RE: Why get off welfare? - 8/23/2013 1:37:30 PM

mnottertail

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St. Cloud State is about an hour and fifteen from here. However, no. Obama decided no such thing, it is a cap he has proposed, which will be ignored in the nutsucker spend and borrow thru the ceiling.

But we need to tone down the fuckin military bigtime.

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 8/23/2013 1:38:18 PM >

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

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Post #: 63

RE: Why get off welfare? - 8/23/2013 4:28:33 PM

thompsonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

When I made Sergeant, I was raking in $535 bucks a month.

I wonder what a private e-nothing gets nowadays to get hassled in boot?

Somewhat more than a sgt back when.
E5 over six with a wife and two kids gets about 50k before taxes when he is in country. Of course long gone are the days when 50k was any serious money for the bodybag lotto.
I know an e6 cook who just got out who is going back as a civilian contracor(food service)at 100k...what side of the bread is the butter on in the sandbox?

Yeah, who thinks that shit up, a goddamn botulism swilling cookie slopping powered eggs as a (Spec 6 if a cookie, right, they dont get hard stripes until 7....) and the government hires him a twice the price thru a contractor.......how the fuck are we saving money on that deal, civilians attached to the military have never made any fuckin sense to me, huntie.

They are having a little trouble finding enough guys willing to take a shot at the body bag lotto even at 50 large. Not too much with e5 and below but stafff ncos are generally better at arithmatic. This guy is an e6 and he told them "fuck you I ain't got enough time to go back and I sure as fuck am not going to extend even for e7." The risk are the same and the payday is in the currency of your choice deposited in the bank of your choice.Your taxes are your issue.

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 64

RE: Why get off welfare? - 8/23/2013 4:40:13 PM

mnottertail

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Joined: 11/3/2004
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Coolio, but they shouldnt have prior milsrv in say, 10 years. Otherwise, nobody will want to be Sergeant Major of the Army or Marine Corp.

But he is a fuckin cook. He is aiding and abetting the enemy, the onliest ones gonna shoot at him ever are the ones gotta eat in that messhall.

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 8/23/2013 4:44:18 PM >

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

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Post #: 65

RE: Why get off welfare? - 8/23/2013 4:55:00 PM

thompsonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Coolio, but they shouldnt have prior milsrv in say, 10 years. Otherwise, nobody will want to be Sergeant Major of the Army or Marine Corp.

I have this vision of walking into the coffee mess and taking all the s/nco coffee cups down and using them for batting practice
A world without s/nco would most likely be a return to eden.

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 66

RE: Why get off welfare? - 8/23/2013 6:52:01 PM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
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From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

The handy thing about Alinsky is that he's a "Get Out of Thought Free" card.

Which is why I was expecting exactly the collection we largely have here, DC. Ever get around to reading Rules for Radicals? Pure binary politics. Black/white, all the angels on one side - all the devils on the other. It's why a criticism of aid programs gone horribly wrong can only be recognized as an attack on the people who need aid. Every time I post something on the subject, I always put in the same statement: It is right and proper that a nation such as ours should have a safety net. And every time, the mindless never see it.

You're absolutely right, DC. It is "get out of thought free," and that sums up most of the replies that I'm not going to bother to read, from the people who post vast buckets of wallpaper paste and bigotry, to those with no credibility whatsoever, who have lost the privilege of appearing on my screen. I'll also note the presence of replies from folks with no foundation of personal knowlege whatsoever in the subject of poverty maintenance programs in the U.S. of A.

quote:

The author didn't discuss the cost of childcare. Or transportation to a job. Or workplace-appropriate clothing. I wonder what role these expenses play in the work-vs.-welfare calculus.

You're right. He didn't. His focus was on programs available in all states. The things you mention are handled differently, in different states, and even in different counties within the states. In Los Angeles county, they are through the Greater Avenues of Independence (GAIN) program, which will provide allowances for every one of them. Indirect childcare tends to be handled through referrals to tax-payer funded Non-Governmental Organizations (NGO's) such as California's Child Care Resource Center (CCRC). GAIN also covers college tuition, books (always new), and any and all school supplies. Mileage rate is $.55 a mile. I think I already mentioned the allowance available for car repairs.

quote:

"Even starting at a minimum-wage job can be a springboard out of poverty," Tanner says. I wonder how often that happens. I also wonder how long it's been since Tanner worked for $8 an hour.

Quite a while would be my guess, on the author making minimum wage, if ever. How it's going to work with the Obamacare unintended consequence of shifting us to a part-time job market is still up in the air. Not well, is my suspicion. I think I've mentioned one of the clerks at my local Walmart before. 10 years ago, I thought he was great, today, I want to grab him by the throat, shake him, and scream in his face, "what the fuck are you still doing here!"

quote:

I wish the author had given a greater sense of the scale of the issue. How many folks nationwide are on welfare? How much do their benefits cost?

I'm going with, "Google away," on this. The present administration has presented it that 47,000,000 are receiving aid from the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP aka food stamps). That's about 1/6th of the population of the United States.

quote:

We tend to define "welfare recipients" fairly narrowly. My own parents, for instance, could not have bought a house without an FHA loan and the ability to deduct mortgage interest from their taxes. So weren't they (and I) benefitting from public assistance?

Now this is the most interesting question in the whole damn thread, and I'll thank you for it. I'm going to take a cool shower, drink another cold adult beverage, get a blowjob, have a bit of back medicine, and then maybe get back to see if there isn't a decent conversation for us to have on that. Might be tomorrow.

(And thanks for the panda update. I really needed that at exactly the moment it arrived - GOD I need a few days with my 2000 year old therapists.)

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

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Post #: 67

RE: Why get off welfare? - 8/23/2013 8:42:24 PM

graceadieu

Posts: 1518
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From: Maryland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

One has to wonder what sort of moron would think 15 bux an hour is a comfy hammock.?

Well I'm just guessing, of course, but it seems to me that somebody who gets up and goes to work every day for $9/hour (or even $15) might be inclined to view raking in $15/hour for not working as a pretty comfy deal.

K.

Yeah, but a person making $9/hour with two kids is definitely eligible for many of the same programs.

I've known people making that kind of wage with kids, and they got SNAP, Head Start, subsidized aftercare, and I think Medicaid for their kids and housing assistance. Not sure how much that works out to in terms of dollars per hour, but I bet with their wage it came out to quite a bit more than somebody who wasn't working and was getting those same bennies plus a bit of TANF.

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 68

RE: Why get off welfare? - 8/24/2013 8:33:00 AM

WebWanderer

Posts: 255
Joined: 5/20/2011
From: Fort Worth, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
In the case of welfare recipients with minor kids, there's an interesting philosophical question about whether rearing them counts as work. In more affluent classes, we recognize stay-at-home moms as key contributors to society.

That's an interesting point. To extend that thought somewhat, the taxpayers effectively pay those welfare recipients to raise their kids, which ends up being their one and only job. What would be the course of action if those kids ended up uneducated, unmotivated and/or in trouble with the law? (Stealing, getting into fights, shooting jogging Australians in the back, etc.) After all, the Feds withdraw funding and fire teachers in under-performing schools, thanks to No Child Left Behind.

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Post #: 69

RE: Why get off welfare? - 8/24/2013 8:47:37 AM

mnottertail

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quote:

How it's going to work with the Obamacare unintended consequence of shifting us to a part-time job market is still up in the air.

That unintended consequence has been republican policy since Nixons time. You know, the Wal-mart republicans.

It is not any more an unintended consequence of Obamacare than social or infrastructure spending is an unintended consequence of republican policy.

The part-time, starvation jobs have been the bulwark of this economy for many years prior to Obamacare.

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 8/24/2013 8:50:13 AM >

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

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Post #: 70

RE: Why get off welfare? - 8/24/2013 9:07:35 AM

TheHeretic

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That's overtime you are thinking of, Ron. I'm sure it all gets very confusing, sometimes.

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If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

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Post #: 71

RE: Why get off welfare? - 8/24/2013 9:08:35 AM

mnottertail

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NO, I understand English and overtime is not part-time.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

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Post #: 72

RE: Why get off welfare? - 8/24/2013 9:17:17 AM

TheHeretic

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Well, there is certainly some sort of confusion for you, Ron. It wasn't that all that long ago, when your rants were that Republican policies were forcing employers to dish out OVERtime, rather than hire more people.

I guess the balls are just on the other end of the court, so the rules change, huh?

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

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Post #: 73

RE: Why get off welfare? - 8/24/2013 9:24:42 AM

mnottertail

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quote:

Well, there is certainly some sort of confusion for you, Ron. It wasn't that all that long ago, when your rants were that Republican policies were forcing employers to dish out OVERtime, rather than hire more people.

You have certainly blown a headpipe, but it wouldn't be much of a leak, no pressure.

Uh, no, I made no such rant, and you are gonna look pretty fuckin stupid as always spinning something like that out of whatever it was I said, but that is not an unusual state of affairs..

Was it on the order of --- Over time, employers...........?

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 8/24/2013 9:25:32 AM >

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

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Post #: 74

RE: Why get off welfare? - 8/24/2013 9:29:29 AM

TheHeretic

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No worries, Ron. I'd rather rake dogshit in the back yard than go digging through the search feature for you on on Bush and Reagan.

When that chore is done, along with a few others, I'm going to get back to the reply I promised DC, so have a nice day.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 75

RE: Why get off welfare? - 8/24/2013 9:31:53 AM

mnottertail

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OH, you mean the miltary over and over deployments. Nah, they got no overtime for that.

How do you tell where the dogshit is? , certainly not by a different smell.

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 8/24/2013 9:33:38 AM >

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

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Post #: 76

RE: Why get off welfare? - 8/24/2013 10:50:27 AM

TheHeretic

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Same way I spot the shit here, Ron, I open my eyes and look in the usual places. Then I use long handled tools to get rid of it. No smell is one of the benefits of living in the desert.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 77

RE: Why get off welfare? - 8/24/2013 2:03:10 PM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
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From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

-- We tend to define "welfare recipients" fairly narrowly. My own parents, for instance, could not have bought a house without an FHA loan and the ability to deduct mortgage interest from their taxes. So weren't they (and I) benefitting from public assistance?

I dunno, DC. Some would like to define "welfare" very broadly, as in the references to "corporate welfare" to describe tax breaks and incentives.

Where do we draw that line philosophically, for a discussion of these programs? I mean, providing for the general welfare is right there in our country's mission statement.

The easy answer seems like splitting collective welfare from individual welfare - everybody gets roads, while only some get food stamps, but then it gets harder. Hungry people have been known to steal and riot after all, and we collectively benefit from minimizing that.

Does your parent's loan assistance, or mine for that matter, just help us as individual families, or does it promote a community of rooted and invested residents? Does the sweetheart land deal for a company building a new factory just put cash in the investors pockets, or does it create opportunities for more people to join those communities?

If we look at the whole range of ways government moves money around to influence behaviors, maybe we could draw the line at encouraging behaviors, such as build a factory/buy a house vs discouraging negative behaviors like stealing/rioting.

Just in practical terms, what I call welfare is the collection of good intentions anti-poverty programs brought in since the Johnson administration. Yes, that also certainly includes the Reagan/Bush-phone that the Obama administration somehow gets the credit for.

The problem isn't that the goals are bad. The problem is in how we accomplish those goals, and the unintended negative social consequences of what we have done.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to dcnovice)

Post #: 78

RE: Why get off welfare? - 8/24/2013 4:25:05 PM

dcnovice

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Thanks, Rich, for your thoughtful and wise reply, which makes many great points.

My aim in mentioning my family as "welfare recipients" was to encourage folks to think of the various ways we all (or almost all?) benefit from "public assistance," either communal or individual.

Doing so might temper some of the hostility that seems to arise anytime this subject surfaces, either online or off. A fair number of folks appear to cherish the notion that "welfare recipients" are another, decidedly inferior species. One sees that on car bumpers ("Work Harder! Millions on welfare depend on you.")--driving on publicly built roads, entertainingly. And I remember a CM sigfile about how welfare recipients should pass drug tests. It didn't specify whether that includes folks getting Social Security or Medicare.

Feeding the desire to see welfare recipients as "other" is, I strongly suspect, anxiety about one's own worth. If I acknowledge that factors beyond a welfare recipient's control--genes, family, community, socioeconomic status, quality of schools, luck--help shape his or her destiny, what becomes of the beloved belief that my more successful situation stems solely from my own hard work? If I recognize that government has given me a boost--public schools, financial aid, rent control, the mortgage deduction, public transit, etc.--then how can I look down disdainfully on other beneficiaries? Seeing "welfare recipients" and myself as (perhaps distant) points on the same spectrum can be something of an ego blow.

Perhaps the most uncomfortable Sunday in the church year is when we hear the parable of the workers in the vineyard (Mt 20:1-16). You can actually see people squirming and frowning as Jesus describes how the vineyard owner pays each worker the same amount, regardless of how many hours he toiled. It's probably one of the most subversive passages in the whole New Testament. Watching preachers try to tackle it is always entertaining.

Coming back to my family, I remember a discussion some years ago about strategies for financial survival in one's twilight years. Mom mentioned that many families--including ours--shift key assets, especially real estate, between generations. That way, the oldster can draw down his or her assets faster and qualify sooner for Medicaid. I said gently, "You know, when folks in other socioeconomic brackets game the system, it's called welfare fraud." Long pause. Then Mom said, "I never thought of it that way."

I'm rambling, I realize. Blame the chemo. What I'm trying to get at is that I wish we could reach a point where, to borrow from Dickens, "men and women seem by one consent to open their shut-up hearts freely, and to think of people below them as if they really were fellow-passengers to the grave, and not another race of creatures bound on other journeys." That wouldn't solve the very real challenge of designing a safety net that provided needed, focused help without snaring generations in dependency. But I think some goodwill and humility would help us better address this thorny topic. I know: typical starry-eyed liberal!

Thanks again for the food for thought!

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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Post #: 79

RE: Why get off welfare? - 8/24/2013 7:23:48 PM

cloudboy

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I the NYT this SAT there was an article on the speakers at the rally in WASH 50 years ago. One of the speakers lamented the need to pay workers a living wage.

“We need a bill that will ensure the equality of a maid who earns $5.00 a week in the home of a family whose total income is $100,000 a year.”

-- John Lewis,
Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee

Mr. Lewis and others had called for the equivalent of $15 per hour in today’s dollars, which is also what fast food and retail workers have demanded in recent months. The current federal minimum wage is half that amount and even lower than the $9.54 per hour in 1963 (as adjusted for inflation)

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 8/24/2013 7:28:16 PM >

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