RE: Strange that this never hit the forum.... (Full Version)

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popeye1250 -> RE: Strange that this never hit the forum.... (8/25/2013 1:58:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

I waited a few days to see if anyone considered it worthy of discussion.

So here is the story.

A WWII decorated vet was waiting for his girlfriend in his car.
Two teenagers came along and beat him to a pulp and robbed him.
He died in the hospital.

quote:

Delbert Belton, WWII Vet, Beaten To Death By Teens

A WWII veteran who fought at the Battle of Okinawa, where he took a bullet to the leg and continued fighting, was beaten to death by two teens Wednesday night.

Delbert Belton, 88, from Spokane, Wash., was pronounced dead Thursday morning, KHQ reported.

Two male teens pummeled Belton outside a pool hall in what police describe a random attack.

"There was no indication that he would have known these people prior to the assault," Spokane Police Major Crimes Detective Lieutenant Mark Griffiths said.

Belton, who friends affectionally called "Shorty," enjoyed playing pool and working on cars.
Source


Death penalty definitely. Having them die the same way would be better, and televised or in the civic center with every fucking teen thug with a conviction for assault forced to watch so they know what will happen to them.


JLF, I agree!
And I don't like the "injection" method of a death penalty that (some) people think is "humane".
Why should a death penalty be humane???
I love it when they say; "it's a reflection on society as a whole how we execute people."
No it's not! It's a reflection of them and what fuckin' pusseys they are!
I'm all for public hangings in the park.
Make a day of it, a disc jockey, frisbees, hot dogs and hamburgers, cotton candy, games for the kids, an "anchor pool" as to the minute and second he drops or, intead of the gallows throw a rope over a tree, stand him up in the back of a pick up truck, slowly drive away and watch him do some sky dancing. And you could have a raffle as to who's pickup truck gets the honors!
This just goes to show that more people need to start carrying guns.



kdsub -> RE: Strange that this never hit the forum.... (8/25/2013 2:03:02 PM)

quote:

Citation needed. Unless everyone suddenly up and evolved overnight, X-Men style, and I didn't get the memo, I can cite more than a few examples to the contrary from recent history


You could only cite as examples a ridiculously small percentage of the total population.

quote:

Assuming that humans have already evolved into fuzzy peace-loving creatures and assuming that cruelty is a bug and not a feature and assuming that such a bug could be found and assuming it could be fixed, let's say that happens about 150 years from now. Kudos to the creepy brain-tweaking people of the future. What do we do here and now, though?


Would you not agree that those that kill outside of social norms have a harder time passing along their genes? They have a tendency on average not to live as long...at least with freedom. But just to clarify I am not talking peace-loving...Just that those that live outside of naturally occurring social norms, developed over perhaps hundreds of thousands of years of evolution, will have a hard time existing in modern civilizations.

As to what to do with them now...well...do whatever it takes to protect society...personally I prefer execution when their guilt can be absolutely proven and life incarceration for all others.

Butch



igor2003 -> RE: Strange that this never hit the forum.... (8/25/2013 2:04:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Well, you are heading down paths I won't follow now, Jeff. Yes, they are predators, but we must never dehumanize them with the "animals" label. Yes, the process of the death penalty needs to be a ritual, and it should happen in way that can be seen, and understood for what it is, but there is no need for their removal from this life to be anything but quick and clean.




I’m going to side more with jlf on this one. Let the punishment fit the crime. If someone kills someone else in a callous and brutal way, then how is it cruel or unusual for them to experience the same?

And, I have thought for years that if there are going to be executions they should be public, and I don’t mean just televised. That would make it just another TV show. The way it is now they are all sanitized and hidden away from view like some little secret. It’s like when you watch the news and something happens thousands of miles away, and you think, “How sad,” but the true reality doesn’t hit home unless you see it and experience it for yourself.

Let the people…not just the young thugs…actually see the flailing limbs and dripping blood, and hear the cries of the condemned as they die, so that they will see and know firsthand what they can expect if they decide to callously and brutally take someone’s life.



WebWanderer -> RE: Strange that this never hit the forum.... (8/25/2013 2:22:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
You could only cite as examples a ridiculously small percentage of the total population.

Errr... No. Again: you claimed that "mankind has evolved to where the social behavior that promotes survival has become hardwired in our brains." Want some recent examples to the contrary? Catch! The Holocaust (a handful of perpetrators got executed, millions of Germans who lived through the regime shrugged and moved on), the Mai Lai massacre (nobody went to jail for that one, at least not for long), the world's complete inaction during the Rwanda genocide (the killers just said "I'm sorry" and went on to spread their genes), ditto for the Darfur quagmire. Japanese Internment camps here in the United States only 70 years ago. An organized slaughter, dehumanization and genocide against Native Americans, which ended just 5-6 generations ago. Slavery ended only 150 years ago - that's just 6 generations.

There. I've cited my examples (just off the top of my head, with hundreds more out there). Now please cite your data showing that "mankind has evolved to where the social behavior that promotes survival has become hardwired in our brains" and, furthermore, that it happened over the past 5-10 years. We'll just assume that Rwanda happened before we all evolved, shall we? Or are genocides to be expected in your advanced, evolved world?

quote:

Would you not agree that those that kill outside of social norms have a harder time passing along their genes?

No. Genghis Khan left behind so many descendants that 0.5% of mankind (roughly 35 million people) are his direct descendants. Source Feel free to cite a source that proves your point, by the way. I'm sure there have been studies done on fertility rates of violent criminals.
quote:

They have a tendency on average not to live as long...at least with freedom.

Citation needed.
quote:

those that live outside of naturally occurring social norms, developed over perhaps hundreds of thousands of years of evolution, will have a hard time existing in modern civilizations.

So are you talking about mankind as a whole or just the First World countries? Because newsflash - there's still a ton of really horrific stuff going on in the world. Kinda goes against your whole "yay, we've evolved!" thesis, doesn't it?

So let's see, that's about 3 points you've made that you need to provide citations for. And I'm not talking about blogs and such - I want citations of peer-reviewed studies. You may link to PDF abstracts as a last resort. I look forward to reading what your evolved, socially hardwired brain will find.



kdsub -> RE: Strange that this never hit the forum.... (8/25/2013 2:31:42 PM)

All your examples totaled are still a ridiculously small percentage of the total human existence on earth in the same time period...with even less importance in evolution of the species....minor blips and hiccups in the progression of survival behavior over perhaps a million years.

Butch



Real0ne -> RE: Strange that this never hit the forum.... (8/25/2013 2:48:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Look, I worked in law enforcement, and I will say this, the penal system does nothing but warehouse the little bastards. It does not "teach them a lesson" nor does it rehabilitate.




I already posted the solution complements of george

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPaGf-ypKGw



popeye1250 -> RE: Strange that this never hit the forum.... (8/25/2013 3:13:58 PM)

Web, what does Rwanda, Darfur, Haiti, Syria etc have to do with the U.S or U.S. taxpayers?



WebWanderer -> RE: Strange that this never hit the forum.... (8/25/2013 3:46:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

All your examples totaled are still a ridiculously small percentage of the total human existence on earth in the same time period...with even less importance in evolution of the species....minor blips and hiccups in the progression of survival behavior over perhaps a million years.

Usually when people say "has evolved," that implies a continuing process, which means it's still evolving now. Now, if you'd said "mankind had evolved up until such-and-such time and now it's all going downhill," you may have had a point. Instead, you're trapped in the corner and desperately trying to shift the goalposts...

If the mankind has evolved to abhor all violence and be touchy-feely - and if that evolution has happened "over perhaps a million years," we should be pretty damn advanced now, right? Then once again, explain Rwanda and provide citations for your previous statements. The Rwanda genocide saw the slaughter of as many as 1 million people over the course of 100 days. The killers got away and went on to spread their genes. The rest of the world saw it and did nothing: no Marines, no nuclear strike, no UN intervention. Nothing. If there has ever been a better piece of evidence showing that humans are a bunch of cowardly, selfish hairless monkeys who are mainly concerned with self-interest, I can't think of one.

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Web, what does Rwanda, Darfur, Haiti, Syria etc have to do with the U.S or U.S. taxpayers?


If you follow my conversation with him all the way back to post #17, he said that humans have evolved to abhor violence and that the feral teenagers this thread is about probably have a small glitch in their brains, which we'll be able to fix with science. [&:] Maybe. At some point in the distant future. When pressed for details, he started flip-flopping and making ambiguous statements that he's not in any hurry to back up.

Heh. Sorry if I derailed the discussion a bit - I just can't help myself when some wannabe-idealist starts spouting off about our evolved morals, indigo children and all that other nonsense.



popeye1250 -> RE: Strange that this never hit the forum.... (8/25/2013 5:24:44 PM)

Yeah, funny thing about ideology, it always seem to trump intellect in those with a "cause."
They build a conclusion around a belief.
They call those who dissagree with them, "non-believers." :)



BamaD -> RE: Strange that this never hit the forum.... (8/25/2013 6:31:53 PM)

the feral teenagers this thread is about probably have a small glitch in their brains, which we'll be able to fix with science.

Absolutely true.
Rope
High voltage electricity
Firing squad
Lethal injection
Gas chamber



tazzygirl -> RE: Strange that this never hit the forum.... (8/25/2013 6:32:36 PM)

Why bother with a trial?



dcnovice -> RE: Strange that this never hit the forum.... (8/25/2013 6:58:44 PM)

quote:

Why bother with a trial?


Lewis Carroll:

'No, no!’ said the Queen. ‘Sentence first — verdict afterwards.’



tazzygirl -> RE: Strange that this never hit the forum.... (8/25/2013 7:09:09 PM)

grins.. seems that way here



BamaD -> RE: Strange that this never hit the forum.... (8/25/2013 7:12:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Why bother with a trial?

Cleary that was in reference to those found guilty of crimes like this.



tazzygirl -> RE: Strange that this never hit the forum.... (8/25/2013 7:19:51 PM)

All I have seen is the condemnation of these particular boys without a conviction. IF they did what is claimed they did, then let the beatings begin. But allow them their day in court. Does it look like they did? Yup.



BamaD -> RE: Strange that this never hit the forum.... (8/25/2013 7:26:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

All I have seen is the condemnation of these particular boys without a conviction. IF they did what is claimed they did, then let the beatings begin. But allow them their day in court. Does it look like they did? Yup.

Two boys did it all my comments were about the ones who did.
I am completely open to changing my mind as to it being these the evidence comes out as I did in the two highest profile cases within my memory.



tazzygirl -> RE: Strange that this never hit the forum.... (8/25/2013 7:30:29 PM)

And your proof that these two boys did it beyond a shadow of a doubt?



BamaD -> RE: Strange that this never hit the forum.... (8/25/2013 8:11:36 PM)

Reread my post I didn't say they were, like you they look guilty to me but I have not seen the proof so I am open to change that view.
The guilty ones should be punished to the full extent of the law but lets be sure we get the right ones.

What part of
"I am completely open to changing my mind as to it being these the evidence comes out as I did in the two highest profile cases within my memory"
Says I am convinced they are the guilty parties?



tazzygirl -> RE: Strange that this never hit the forum.... (8/25/2013 8:16:17 PM)

Frankly, that sentence doesnt make sense at all.



BamaD -> RE: Strange that this never hit the forum.... (8/25/2013 8:23:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Frankly, that sentence doesnt make sense at all.

Allow me to explain.

A In the two highest profile cases in my memory I began seeing the case one way but as the evidence was revealed I did a 180.
B As you said they currently seem guilty but the evidence can change that.



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