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The US Constitution is not based on religion - 8/28/2013 11:08:34 AM   
DomKen


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This claim hijacked another thread
quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24
The Puritans are the very same people that made, wrote and signed our Constitution and keep in mind that a good portion of the original members of our government and our lawmakers were Ministers.

The largest population of Puritans was in the Massachusetts Bay colony. However after the Salem witch trials in the 1690's the Puritans lost a lot of influence and dwindled greatly in number over the succeeding decade.

The only persons considered founding fathers that can be considered to have been raised as Puritans were John and Samuel Adams and John Hancock. None were ministers, John Adams was lawyer, Samuel Adams was a brewer and John Hancock ran an import/export business.

Most of the New England and mid Atlantic colonies were established by people seeking to escape the theocracy of the Mass. Bay colony so there certainly were few if any Puritans in power in those colonies.

None of the men credited with writing either the Declaration or the Constitution were Puritans and the most common religious bent in the group was Deism which is only vaguely Christian. Jefferson's writings indicate a profound lack of belief in orthodox Christianity.

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RE: The US Constitution is not based on religion - 8/28/2013 11:36:41 AM   
chatterbox24


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Status: offline 		I said based on GOD not religion. There is a huge difference. If you read the constitution there are some key words through out the document that might give you a clue. I see them do you? You don't have to see them, you know and you don't have to believe. As I said in the other thread, one can deny God, but it really wouldn't be fair would it, if it wasn't brought to your attention and had a blind eye? Believe how you wish, no one makes a person believe.
MIght I add, that I used puritan as a coined word, I meant Christianity. Was John Hancock a Christian? Was his father a minister?

< Message edited by chatterbox24 -- 8/28/2013 11:51:12 AM >

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RE: The US Constitution is not based on religion - 8/28/2013 11:56:04 AM   
OrionTheWolf


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Status: offline 		Seemed like most were basically deist since they used the word creator. Also, the Christianity of that time period is nothing like the Christianity of our time period. The Church influenced things locally where their congregation was, not nationally or in any type of unity cause.

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RE: The US Constitution is not based on religion - 8/28/2013 11:56:37 AM   
dcnovice


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quote:

If you read the constitution there are some key words through out the document that might give you a clue. I see them do you?

Mind giving us some examples of what you see?

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RE: The US Constitution is not based on religion - 8/28/2013 11:58:07 AM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24

I said based on GOD not religion.

Which God?

Throughout recorded history, there have been hundreds of them.

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RE: The US Constitution is not based on religion - 8/28/2013 12:06:12 PM   
OsideGirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24

I said based on GOD not religion.

Which God?

Throughout recorded history, there have been hundreds of them.


Considering that a several of the founding fathers were said to be Free Masons...perhaps The Great Architect? (said very tongue in cheek like)

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RE: The US Constitution is not based on religion - 8/28/2013 12:13:26 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

perhaps The Great Architect?

That might help explain the pyramid on the back of the dollar bill.

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RE: The US Constitution is not based on religion - 8/28/2013 12:28:08 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24

I said based on GOD not religion. There is a huge difference. If you read the constitution there are some key words through out the document that might give you a clue. I see them do you? You don't have to see them, you know and you don't have to believe. As I said in the other thread, one can deny God, but it really wouldn't be fair would it, if it wasn't brought to your attention and had a blind eye? Believe how you wish, no one makes a person believe.
MIght I add, that I used puritan as a coined word, I meant Christianity. Was John Hancock a Christian? Was his father a minister?

You're still wrong. Jefferson, who wrote the Declaration and was greatly influential in the writing of the Constitution, did not believe in a god in any conventional sense. He certainly did not believe in the Christian deities. He rewrote the new testament by removing all the "miracles," all references to the "resurrection" and all claims of divinity by Jesus.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible

The other leaders were men of the enlightenment and belief in any sort of deity was not something that united or drove them. They conformed to the norms of the period but many were copious letter writes and those surviving letters depict men who thought a great deal and spent very little thought for the supernatural.

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RE: The US Constitution is not based on religion - 8/28/2013 12:31:00 PM   
chatterbox24


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Status: offline 		Okay, not to far into things you will see the word "blessed" Further you will see the word "faith" and there are more. But if you do not associate those words with the Divine then they are merely words to you.
Worship a lamp post if you want or a donkey, or a great looking architect, truly its none of my business.
But there is only one divine and one route there for me and I will leave it at that and let others judge their own course.

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RE: The US Constitution is not based on religion - 8/28/2013 12:35:34 PM   
OsideGirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

perhaps The Great Architect?

That might help explain the pyramid on the back of the dollar bill.



I know there are a great many thoughts on how Free Masonry influenced a lot of what came about from our leaders at that time. It is true that at least 13 of the 39 signers of the Constitution (including my ancestor) were Masons.

http://bessel.org/constmas.htm

< Message edited by OsideGirl -- 8/28/2013 12:39:23 PM >

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RE: The US Constitution is not based on religion - 8/28/2013 12:35:57 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

Jefferson, who wrote the Declaration and was greatly influential in the writing of the Constitution, did not believe in a god in any conventional sense. He certainly did not believe in the Christian deities. He rewrote the new testament by removing all the "miracles," all references to the "resurrection" and all claims of divinity by Jesus.

I agree about Jefferson's beliefs and was delighted to see that one can page through his New Testament at the Smithsonian website.

But I'm not sure about his influence on the Constitution. Wasn't he in Paris at the time? Of course, he may have exerted indirect influence through his friendship with Madison.

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JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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RE: The US Constitution is not based on religion - 8/28/2013 12:37:48 PM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24

Okay, not to far into things you will see the word "blessed" Further you will see the word "faith" and there are more.

Blessed and faith don't necessarily have anything to do with any deity.

I was blessed with good genetics so I've been healthy and even though I haven't lifted in over a decade, my arms and shoulders look like I hit a gym 3x/week.

I have faith in my own capabilities and intelligence when confronted by a problem whether it is physical or mental.

Neither of those has anything to do with a deity.

I understand you have a belief in the Jedaeo-Christian deity most commonly referred to in the literature as "God". OK, that's great. The fact that you believe in and associate certain words with this supernatural being doesn't mean that some people who lived well over 2 centuries did as well based on the fact that they included a couple of words in the body of a document.

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Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

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RE: The US Constitution is not based on religion - 8/28/2013 12:40:18 PM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		as in full faith and credit? not that kinda faith, that is faith in mammon.

Blessings of liberty is not a god concept in that respect.


Most of the framers were lawyers, a few regal plantation owners, and several politicos, with maybe a few preachers.

But not a god centered crew.



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RE: The US Constitution is not based on religion - 8/28/2013 12:41:55 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

Okay, not to far into things you will see the word "blessed" Further you will see the word "faith" and there are more.

Hmm. I just searched for "blessed" in the Archives' transcription of the Constitution and came up empty-handed. The one time "faith" surfaced was in "Full Faith and Credit" (IV.1), which has nothing to do with God. Are we looking at the same document?

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it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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RE: The US Constitution is not based on religion - 8/28/2013 12:45:19 PM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		she meant--- secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity.

blessing and faith (and a host of others) are not uniquely a Gods words.

The; for instance is a word used by heathens all the time, as well as the English translations of god.

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RE: The US Constitution is not based on religion - 8/28/2013 2:33:30 PM   
Winterapple


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Status: offline 		"The Government of the United States of America is
not in any sense founded on the Christian religion"

John Adams, The Treaty of Tripoli

Since he was there and all, an actual Founding Father
unlike say Glenn Beck, he might have had the scoop on
things.

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RE: The US Constitution is not based on religion - 8/28/2013 2:50:22 PM   
Winterapple


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Status: offline 		Are the words Puritan and Christian interchangeable for some?
The Pilgrims weren't Puritans and would get cranky if you called
them that. Do all Christians believe the same things? If so why
are there so many Christian sects? I'm guessing the two Catholic
signers of the Constitution would balk at being described as Puritans.

And the thought of Alexander Hamilton being described as a Puritan
is very comical. He wasn't a Puritan in either outlook or cultural
heritage. If you read biographies of Washington, Jefferson, Franklin,
Adams they are not religious like today's evangelical fundies.
They were deist(at best). They believed strongly in the separation
of church and state and that no religion should be favored over
any other.

The Constitution was influenced by many things including the
philosophies of men like John Locke who was a Christian.
But that doesn't make it a Christian document. It was also
influenced by ideas that predated Christianity.


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RE: The US Constitution is not based on religion - 8/28/2013 3:35:07 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

Jefferson, who wrote the Declaration and was greatly influential in the writing of the Constitution, did not believe in a god in any conventional sense. He certainly did not believe in the Christian deities. He rewrote the new testament by removing all the "miracles," all references to the "resurrection" and all claims of divinity by Jesus.

I agree about Jefferson's beliefs and was delighted to see that one can page through his New Testament at the Smithsonian website.

But I'm not sure about his influence on the Constitution. Wasn't he in Paris at the time? Of course, he may have exerted indirect influence through his friendship with Madison.

He had written probably hundreds of letters on the subjects of governance and such to his many friends amongst the influential members of the Convention. Madison and Adams both certainly maintained a correspondence with Jefferson and it seems to me that many things Madison and Adams had to say during the Convention and during the ratification came from ideas developed in those letters to and from Jefferson.

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RE: The US Constitution is not based on religion - 8/28/2013 3:35:52 PM   
cloudboy


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The Supreme Court could change that. Then new judges appointed to the court could change that...

Looking at the Middle East right now, it's ironic to watch the right wing try to glorify Christianity and promote it into a place of public policy. To them the Christian Brotherhood might be a nifty political party whereas the Muslim Brotherhood would be a completely different story altogether.

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RE: The US Constitution is not based on religion - 8/28/2013 5:02:03 PM   
PeonForHer


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In the history of the great discussion about inalienable rights - the essential rights that people believed just *must* be accorded to humans, by virtue of being human - 'God' was often the final arbiter. People couldn't easily accept a moral truth *as* a truth, without reference to anything else at all, in those days. Something 'above or beyond' humans had to be posited as the authority. It's still often the case today: 'Everybody is of equal worth' is a truism for many if not most, but you'll always get some arse, somewhere, who'll argue with it. So when you do, you can just shut him up with the retort, 'You ask why? Because God says so, and that is that. Now fuck off if you don't like it.' The American Constitution uses the line about holding its moral truths to be self-evident, in and of themselves, without anything "higher" validating that - but its writers knew that this wouldn't be enough for some people. Or, at least, that's my impression.

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