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Team America - World Police: The Obama Years - 9/1/2013 5:22:58 PM

TheHeretic

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The United States is morally distinct and exceptional among the nations of the Earth, and acting as a police force on the world stage, including within the boundaries of other sovereign nations, is our proper role.

Discuss

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That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

Post #: 1

RE: Team America - World Police: The Obama Years - 9/1/2013 5:25:19 PM

RomanticRebel

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Funny, I didn't hear an outcry from conservatives when we invaded Iraq without cause...

(in reply to TheHeretic)

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RE: Team America - World Police: The Obama Years - 9/1/2013 5:28:53 PM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RomanticRebel

Funny, I didn't hear an outcry from conservatives when we invaded Iraq without cause...

Me either...... I heard much cheerleading though.

Rich, are we short of Obama and Syria threads again ? I`ll put some in the post.

(in reply to RomanticRebel)

Post #: 3

RE: Team America - World Police: The Obama Years - 9/1/2013 5:31:16 PM

Lucylastic

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Dont Hate Love

(in reply to Politesub53)

Post #: 4

RE: Team America - World Police: The Obama Years - 9/1/2013 5:45:46 PM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
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From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RomanticRebel

Funny, I didn't hear an outcry from conservatives when we invaded Iraq without cause...

Chickenshit answer, RomanticRebel.

Step up and own it, or step away.

FYI - I've been opposed to starting any of the shit we started in the Middle East and Afghanistan. I'm a vet, and have close family members currently serving.

Lucy, you'll need to add a blindfold to those fingers in your ears, if you are going to play on how the US responds to Syria - I plan to ask the question repeatedly (at least until I go get fucked up among the big trees for a few days).

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to RomanticRebel)

Post #: 5

RE: Team America - World Police: The Obama Years - 9/1/2013 5:53:09 PM

DarkSteven

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One of the things I have never understood is that conservatives oppose Obama's policies, and liberals support them. Conservatives supported the exact same policies when Bush did them, and liberals opposed them.

There is no way we can win in Syria. Al-Assad is a slimy murderer, and the rebels are aligned with Al Qaeda.

Seeing as how Obama's win over Hillary was based largely on him opposing the war in Iraq, he should be way too smart to repeat the same mistake. I'm at a loss to explain.

As far as the US being the world's policeman - that is exactly the role the UN is supposed to play. Let 'em.

_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

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Post #: 6

RE: Team America - World Police: The Obama Years - 9/1/2013 6:16:17 PM

servantforuse

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Obama should be smart enough to repeat the same mistakes, but he painted himself into a corner with his line in the sand. He will make the same mistake and it won't work out well for him or the USA.

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Post #: 7

RE: Team America - World Police: The Obama Years - 9/1/2013 6:17:25 PM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

One of the things I have never understood is that conservatives oppose Obama's policies, and liberals support them. Conservatives supported the exact same policies when Bush did them, and liberals opposed them.

Something I'd suggest for your reading list, Steve, after the bees go into hibernation (they do that, right?), would be "The Righteous Mind," by Jonathan Haidt. It won't answer your question, but it will offer some new ways to look at the problem.

Not all conservatives supported what Bush was after, and way too many alleged liberals danced to his tune when it mattered.

There are times when we've gotta do what we've gotta do. I don't see where this is one of those times though, without being willing to fully embrace the creed I tossed out for discussion.

I'm sure the message will be tuned constantly, as the great task of selling a Syrian intervention cranks up to speed, but from what I caught of SecState Kerry's pitch on the Sunday shows, what I laid out in the OP is the foundation all his arguments must ultimately rest on.

I want to see who is willing to own it.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to DarkSteven)

Post #: 8

RE: Team America - World Police: The Obama Years - 9/1/2013 6:21:05 PM

dcnovice

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quote:

One of the things I have never understood is that conservatives oppose Obama's policies, and liberals support them. Conservatives supported the exact same policies when Bush did them, and liberals opposed them.

That is indeed one of the more dismaying ailments afflicting our body politic. I suspect it feeds in part on hyperpartisanship and a take-no-prisoners mindset.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to DarkSteven)

Post #: 9

RE: Team America - World Police: The Obama Years - 9/1/2013 7:06:35 PM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
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From: California, USA
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Care to have a run at the topic, DC?

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If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to dcnovice)

Post #: 10

RE: Team America - World Police: The Obama Years - 9/1/2013 7:46:59 PM

DarkSteven

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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

Obama should be smart enough to repeat the same mistakes, but he painted himself into a corner with his line in the sand.

Agreed. But the mistake was in drawing the line in the first place, not in standing up afterward.

_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

(in reply to servantforuse)

Post #: 11

RE: Team America - World Police: The Obama Years - 9/1/2013 8:05:51 PM

Aylee

Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

The United States is morally distinct and exceptional among the nations of the Earth, and acting as a police force on the world stage, including within the boundaries of other sovereign nations, is our proper role.

Discuss

Lt. Siegfried Sassoon.
3rd Batt: Royal Welsh Fusiliers.
July, 1917.

I am making this statement as an act of wilful defiance of military authority because I believe that the war is being deliberately prolonged by those who have the power to end it. I am a soldier, convinced that I am acting on behalf of soldiers. I believe that the war upon which I entered as a war of defence and liberation has now become a war of agression and conquest. I believe that the purposes for which I and my fellow soldiers entered upon this war should have been so clearly stated as to have made it impossible to change them and that had this been done the objects which actuated us would now be attainable by negotiation.

I have seen and endured the sufferings of the troops and I can no longer be a party to prolong these sufferings for ends which I believe to be evil and unjust. I am not protesting against the conduct of the war, but against the political errors and insincerities for which the fighting men are being sacrificed.

On behalf of those who are suffering now, I make this protest against the deception which is being practised upon them; also I believe it may help to destroy the callous complacency with which the majority of those at home regard the continuance of agonies which they do not share and which they have not enough imagination to realise.

~~~~

Bolding is mine.

I believe that a great amount of the hue and cry is because the reasons for attacking Syria have not been made clear. It seems to be for political reasons. Not for liberation. Not to protect ourselves.

We are currently making defense cuts and sequestration is making things worse. What are our methods for attacking Syria?

And lastly, WHAT is the desired outcome?

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(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 12

RE: Team America - World Police: The Obama Years - 9/1/2013 8:14:33 PM

FatDomDaddy

Posts: 3183
Joined: 1/31/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

The United States is morally distinct and exceptional among the nations of the Earth, and acting as a police force on the world stage, including within the boundaries of other sovereign nations, is our proper role.

Discuss

Collarme really needs a like button.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 13

RE: Team America - World Police: The Obama Years - 9/1/2013 8:26:45 PM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

Collarme really needs a like button.

Feel free to share.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to FatDomDaddy)

Post #: 14

RE: Team America - World Police: The Obama Years - 9/1/2013 8:28:22 PM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

Great post, Aylee.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to Aylee)

Post #: 15

RE: Team America - World Police: The Obama Years - 9/1/2013 9:04:11 PM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Rich, are we short of Obama and Syria threads again ? I`ll put some in the post.

Unless your country turns pussy to the pending pressure, Polite, I don't much give a shit what you do. Unless, of course, you can figure out a way to mail me some English weather - the monsoon really sucks this year.

This thread is based on the philosophical foundation required to support a US intervention policy in Syria. I want to see how many who will argue for such actions are willing to step up and own it. Not many, it looks like, so far.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to Politesub53)

Post #: 16

RE: Team America - World Police: The Obama Years - 9/1/2013 9:26:03 PM

BamaD

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My position on Syria is un changed,
I got it from Napoleon who said When your enemies are destroying each other don't interrupt
All sides in Syria want us dead, anything we do will help someone.
I would favor the clandestine supply of weapons (nothing major) to whoever id losing at the moment.
Keep them killing each other as long as possible.
The more they kill now the less we will have to kill later.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 17

RE: Team America - World Police: The Obama Years - 9/1/2013 9:37:44 PM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

And how would you characterize that, in terms of a guiding philosophy for the proper overall role of the United States in world affairs, Bama?

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to BamaD)

Post #: 18

RE: Team America - World Police: The Obama Years - 9/1/2013 9:44:13 PM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

And how would you characterize that, in terms of a guiding philosophy for the proper overall role of the United States in world affairs, Bama?

Looking out for number one.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 19

RE: Team America - World Police: The Obama Years - 9/1/2013 9:52:03 PM

Zonie63

Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

The United States is morally distinct and exceptional among the nations of the Earth, and acting as a police force on the world stage, including within the boundaries of other sovereign nations, is our proper role.

Discuss

I think George Washington said it better than I can:

quote:

Observe good faith & justice towds all Nations. Cultivate peace & harmony with all--Religion & morality enjoin this conduct; and can it be that good policy does not equally enjoin it? It will be worthy of a free, enlightened, and, at no distant period, a great Nation, to give to mankind the magnanimous and too novel example of a People always guided by an exalted justice & benevolence. Who can doubt that in the course of time and things the fruits of such a plan would richly repay any temporary advantages wch might be lost by a steady adherence to it? Can it be, that Providence has not connected the permanent felicity of a Nation with its virtue? The experiment, at least, is recommended by every sentiment which ennobles human Nature. Alas! is it rendered impossible by its vices?

In the execution of such a plan nothing is more essential than that permanent inveterate antipathies against particular Nations and passionate attachments for others should be excluded; and that in place of them just & amicable feelings towards all should be cultivated. The Nation, which indulges towards another an habitual hatred, or an habitual fondness, is in some degree a slave.

...

So likewise, a passionate attachment of one Nation for another produces a variety of evils. Sympathy for the favourite nation, facilitating the illusion of an imaginary common interest, in cases where no real common interest exists, and infusing into one the enmities of the other, betrays the former into a participation in the quarrels & Wars of the latter, without adequate inducement or justification: It leads also to concessions to the favourite Nation of priviledges denied to others, which is apt doubly to injure the Nation making the concessions--by unnecessarily parting with what ought to have been retained--& by exciting jealousy, ill will, and a disposition to retaliate, in the parties from whom eql priviledges are withheld: And it gives to ambitious, corrupted, or deluded citizens (who devote themselves to the favourite Nation) facility to betray, or sacrifice the interests of their own country, without odium, sometimes even with popularity; gilding with the appearances of a virtuous sense of obligation a commendable deference for public opinion, or a laudable zeal for public good, the base or foolish compliances of ambition corruption or infatuation.

As avenues to foreign influence in innumerable ways, such attachments are particularly alarming to the truly enlightened and independent Patriot. How many opportunities do they afford to tamper with domestic factions, to practice the arts of seduction, to mislead public opinion, to influence or awe the public Councils! Such an attachment of a small or weak, towards a great & powerful Nation, dooms the former to be the satellite of the latter.

...

The Great rule of conduct for us, in regard to foreign Nations is in extending our comercial relations to have with them as little political connection as possible. So far as we have already formed engagements let them be fulfilled, with perfect good faith. Here let us stop.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 20

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