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sunshinemiss -> RE: Ordering Statements (9/6/2013 4:21:50 AM)
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ORIGINAL: JeffBC
~fast reply~
At Sunshine's request I wanted to stop by this thread and do a more credible job now that I have more neurons to answer the question with.
Word choice is very important as we all know. Words shape thoughts -- a point BDSM folk ought to ponder when they bandy about words like "slave" to a vanilla person. But this particular question was specifically about word choice in the sub (enforced by the dom) and that's not how it works for me. I see that as a useful tool, I just have much better ones, specifically:
My own words
I am a naturally manipulative person. What I mean by that is I do it without thinking about it. I actually have to work when I DON'T want to bend someone to my will. That is the situation when I choose my words carefully. But in normal situations I am certain I shape other peoples' thoughts to a great extent more by my own word choices than enforcing someone else's. A prime example of that is how I can talk about our M/s dynamic to vanilla people and not raise any hackles. I'm just selecting my words to navigate through their own mental map and get to the proper destination (rather than something horrific which would be an inaccurate view of our marriage). I do the same thing with Carol and I do it unthinkingly... I do it with everyone.
I remember a woman once posting about how she had a work event and had been ordered by her fellow to come home immediately for a little hanky spanky. She was nervous about what to say to people since she had to slip out right away. In the end she simply said something along the lines of, "My husband wants me home right away." The folks understood that to be a "traditional" kind of relationship. She was, after all, saying the same thing, just using words that wouldn't get people's "hackles" up.
Carol's thoughts
Shaping Carol's thoughts by word choice is certainly feasible but it's kind of like trying to drive a car by remote control when you could just put your hands on the steering wheel. When I want Carol to have a different thought/feeling/viewpoint/whatever, I take a look at what her current view point is. Then I construct a reasonable trail from that viewpoint to the desired one. I show her those breadcrumbs and tell her to walk the path and get to the destination. Sometimes, when I'm playing with my control I put time limits on that like "now" or "you have 10 minutes". But in the end, I find it much easier just to be direct and forthright about what the desired outcome is and let her do what she does both naturally and well.
This seems somewhat in line with what I'm thinking about. Although you tell her the destination, she has the freedom to figure out the path. There are others who would give more detailed directions on that path, but this seems to be on the same continuum for what is bouncing off in the hollow walls of what I call my brain. So, for example, if you wanted her to ... enjoy wearing false eyelashes for example (the goofy nonsense I come up with!) ... And she thinks they are , well, goofy. So you tell her, "Enjoy them, honey. I want you to enjoy wearing them and batting your eyelashes at me." And then she does whatever machinations in her head she needs to do to make the enjoyment happen. Another person might say the same thing but add a couple of steps of, "Think of them as a fun experience, experimenting with something new. Think about how much I will enjoy looking in your eyes." And then she associates that with the positive emotions or thoughts that come with experimenting and the googly eyes you give her.
I'm a little surprised that you aren't more directive in that. I wonder if it is just "your" tool or whether it simply works with the people you attract to you... hmmm..
It's also worth pointing out that Carol and I have been together a long time so surface shit is just that... surface shit. There's WAY too much foundation in place to easily change anything important working from the cosmetic level. The perfect example of this is how calling me "master" or "bunny" changes nothing. Trying to release her or not changes nothing. Things have settled in enough with us such that we have to deal with "that which is" and if we want that changed then it is best just to get out the excavator and start moving the foundation.
This holds true in situations beyond Carol. I have a submissive I've been friends with for going on two years now... long distance only. I could probably tell her to call me "master" or "sir" and she'd probably do it because she actually does respect me and if it makes me happy then... well... why not? Much like Carol. So perhaps the answer is simply that I'm willing to spend two years building up the reality of what I want and THEN get it rather than try for parlor tricks. Of course, give the situation that long distance submissive calling me "sir" changes nothing since she already respect me and both of us know it. Interestingly, now that I think on it there were specific viewpoints I wanted her to change (having to do with her own self-image). Per my norm I opted for the more direct route of simply arguing against the current vision and... once or twice when I deemed things had gotten a bit too far, direct command (which she never agreed to obey or consented to yada yada). I also at least helped to change the underlying reality which helped feed those negative images. I'm a huge fan of reality.
I will say that your voice of reason / reality does make it easy to understand you. Often you say some wildly unpopular things, but the manner in which you say it allows for some harsh content to be heard without the responsive gnashing of teeth that would occur if someone else said the same thing.
In ways that this is commonly used in BDSM such as the demand to be called some honorific as a show of respect, I find that much too pointless. I have zero interest in artificial respect and I have only somewhat more interest in the sort of faux respect that might be engendered by word choice over time.
I just changed my tag line based on this conversation. One of the most respectful things I can call someone is "such a fucker." It is said with absolute respect and affection. I expect that people who overheard me call someone that might be appalled (oh bother! I didn't follow the rules! Imagine!). Somehow it hearkens to an equality and an appreciation for another person's use of their authority. Warning: Geek moment: It reminds me of the engineering test on Star Trek. It isn't really a test about engineering. It's a test about moral strength and courage. "Such a fucker" isn't about disrespect. It's about appreciating someone's ability to make the hard decisions and all that comes with it. I'm not sure how or when it became that for me, I just know that it is.
In the end, I want Carol (and everyone else) to respect me because I am actually a certain kind of man. I prefer to just go ahead and work hard to be that sort of man and then let the things like trust & respect flow naturally (and deeply). In the ways more savvy BDSM folks might use it (Orion comes to mind) I hold it to be a useful tool. I just think I have better ones.
I wrote recently about a man like that. He took me on a motorcycle ride. He doesn't worry whether people respect him. He is simply a man who lives a lift that engenders respect by being himself.
I think evesgrden summed it up nicely... "Many roads lead to Rome". I just have some preferences in the roads I prefer.
I would agree with that. I know that when I'm trying to rewire my own thinking, it is helpful for me to make a piece of art about it. That's just what works for me. I expect there are others for whom that would not work at all.
Thank you for popping back in and addressing this with your usual aplomb. Oh, and by the way. You are such a fucker.
best,
sunshine
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