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RE: Yeah, Do you think this is a good idea? - 9/3/2013 9:12:17 PM   
Phydeaux


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quote:

.

Yes, governments can raise taxes and run deficits, but politicians who consistently do so soon face job-security issues of their own.



Really.. We've been running deficits, by and large since Andrew Jackson. (And no, for people interested in facts, no, Bill Clinton did not balance the budget - or rather - he did so by taking social security 'off the books'). Ie., smoke and mirrors. )

But I digress.
I notice no real trend to vote-out politicians based on the deficit. Quite the contrary.

(in reply to dcnovice)
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RE: Yeah, Do you think this is a good idea? - 9/3/2013 9:17:30 PM   
Phydeaux


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sloguy02246


The petition requires the signatures of 30% of the local's members to force a decertification election.

The subsequent election then requires a simple majority of those voting (50% plus 1 vote) to decertify the current union as their representative.


Actually, the question of whether it is a majority of those voting - or a majority of all members is *very* much in the air.

The NLRB has rule that is must be a majority of all members. So, essentially, those intimidated into not voting are voting in favor of the union.

Now, of course, that ruling was *completely* illegal as it was done without a legal quorum. However, no doubt that rule will be re-established.. soon.

(in reply to sloguy02246)
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RE: Yeah, Do you think this is a good idea? - 9/3/2013 9:28:39 PM   
Phydeaux


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Hogwash.

I oppose government workers unionization solely for corruption reasons.

In private companies workers and management have adversarial relationships (don't agree with this - but for ease of discussion, assume it). Out of that opposition hopefully comes a deal both sides can live with.

In public unions - no such adversarial relationship exists. To the contrary. Government unions will reliably come out in favor of democrats who will boost their pay, benefits, and pensions.

The adversarial relationship does not exist - and the taxpayer suffers.

One more additional short hand points:

a). Govt is what decides the standdards on workers rights, hours, safety etc. Changes can already be effectuated by VOTING. No other powerstructure is necessary.

When unions become more important than the citizen - you have a problem. And please do not defend this by saying republican corporations ya da ya da ya. An eye for an eye leads to a land of the blind.

(in reply to dcnovice)
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RE: Yeah, Do you think this is a good idea? - 9/3/2013 9:32:49 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

We've been running deficits, by and large since Andrew Jackson.

And we're still standing.

quote:


I notice no real trend to vote-out politicians based on the deficit. Quite the contrary.

Wasn't dismay over the deficit an animating force for the Tea Party?

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to Phydeaux)
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RE: Yeah, Do you think this is a good idea? - 9/3/2013 9:49:22 PM   
Phydeaux


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

We've been running deficits, by and large since Andrew Jackson.

And we're still standing.

quote:


I notice no real trend to vote-out politicians based on the deficit. Quite the contrary.

Wasn't dismay over the deficit an animating force for the Tea Party?


"No real trend." Tell me - how many people did the tea party successfully defeat.
A handful - perhaps?

And honestly, they were generally more successful in getting tax&spenders elected...

Soooo..

.fail.

(in reply to dcnovice)
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RE: Yeah, Do you think this is a good idea? - 9/4/2013 3:12:54 AM   
Zonie63


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

If every janitor in America were making that, both public and private sector, then it might be worth something. But if it's only for those janitors and no one else, then I think the criticism is valid.

When you negotiate your salary before taking a position, do you demand that every equivalent employee in the firm--let alone the nation--earn the same amount?


No.

quote:


Would it be wrong to move from your company if another offers you more pay for the same work?


No.

quote:


Or is it just unionized janitors whose wages should sink to the lowest common denominator?


I'd rather that everyone's wages rise rather than just a few people. If 10 janitors have to be paid less just so 2 janitors can earn extravagant wages, then I don't see how that's good for America. For one thing, it divides the working classes against each other, which is another thing that unions have been responsible for.

I'll give another example. In the past couple of decades, the local bus service (city-owned but privately managed) became unionized (even though Arizona is a right-to-work state). The fallout was that there were a few bus strikes, but what struck me was that the people they were hurting the most were those who were worse off than they were, the poor, disabled, elderly, underemployed, etc. By their actions, the Teamsters were only taking food out of the mouths of the poor in the form of higher bus fares. They couldn't give two shits about the people they were hurting.

My city was recently ranked the sixth poorest city in America. It's a low-wage town, and that's how it's always been (and always will be, according to one employer I know). So, when I hear about people in California or back east who earn 3-4 times as much as the workers here and complaining about how rough they have it...I have to wonder, do they expect sympathy?

Of course, even as bad as it is here in Tucson, just 50 miles to the south one can find workers living in dismal conditions and earning abysmal wages (which is why they're so happy to come up and harvest produce on these farms mentioned in the OP). That's why unions should give up their practice of being a bunch of selfish, short-sighted assholes, since they leave far too many people out in the cold who would be more than happy to replace them at pennies on the dollar.


(in reply to dcnovice)
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RE: Yeah, Do you think this is a good idea? - 9/4/2013 4:02:10 AM   
Zonie63


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

Based upon this thread and another, I have been thinking back to my days as a young, impressionable, anti-nuke, anti-hand gun, pro-union (Dad was a shop steward/business agent for 32 of his 42 years on the job), thinking-he-would-register-Democratic, teen-ager and I can't help but opine: Is anyone here old enough to remember when unions were about doing good for their rank and file and they supported Democrats because, by-and-large, Democrats had the veneer that they did what was good for working class Americans?



I have dim memories of those days. Overall, throughout my life, my sympathies have always been with the underdog and those who believe in "fighting the power," as the saying goes. I admire the overall history of the labor movement and those of previous generations who fought to overcome exploitation, sweat shops, child labor, unsafe working conditions, and other such atrocities against working people.

If not for Democrats and the working classes becoming distracted by foreign policy, along with environmental and social issues, they might have held enough political capital to be able to continue doing the good they were doing for working classes. I've heard it said that the Democrats used to be the party of the working man, but now they're the party of the non-working man. They took the emphasis off of working class and economic issues and started focusing more on other issues, and that's where they went wrong.

Take, for example, the current mayor of New York City, a Democrat. Here's a guy who seems to think that the only problem with the world is big sodas and cigarette smoking. You don't see him working to re-implement rent controls to bring down the obscenely high rents and property values in his beloved city. You don't see him doing anything about homelessness. You don't see him doing anything to help the poor or working classes earn higher wages (or not have to pay so much to try to eke out a tolerable existence). Cities like NY and LA suck up money from the rest of the country and control most of the wealth, and yet, these are supposedly bastions of "liberal" Democrats and powerful labor unions. All they do is just shit on the rest of the country, the so-called "flyover territory."




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RE: Yeah, Do you think this is a good idea? - 9/4/2013 6:45:11 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
quote:

In a private Union, you have the Union negotiating with management. Management is the company that will use it's money to pay for the wages and benefits in the Union contract.

That's true in a mom-and=pop shop but not necessarily in a corporation, where shareholders seldom run the joint. I'd be wary of the assumption that managers necessarily have the firm's best interest at heart. It's not unknown, for instance, for execs to focus on short-term numbers (and the resulting bonuses accruing to said execs) at the expense of the company's long-term health.


Isn't that their right to determine? Shareholders do have a say in how things are run, to some extent. But, management isn't really using shareholder money. Shareholders invested in the company, taking the risk that their money could be lost. A poorly run company should suffer market consequences, else what's the incentive to change? Treat your employees poorly and you'll either have shitty employees, or you won't be able to attract employees.

quote:

ETA: Skimping on salaries isn't always in a firm's best interest. One of Henry Ford's shrewdest moves, after all, was hiking wages, with the result that his workers could afford to buy Model Ts.


Absolute truth. Non-Union facilities don't always have lower wages, either.

quote:

quote:

People are more free-spending with other people's money than they are with their own.

That hasn't been my experience, honestly. In both professional and volunteer settings, I've known plenty of folks who were far more scrupulous with funds entrusted to them than with their own money.


I think our government, at any level, will result in evidence that government will, generally, always be much less carefree with taxpayer money. There are businesses that are quite shrewd, too. I would hope that charities would be among the shrewdest (that is, I'm hoping they get the biggest impact per dollar).

quote:

quote:

A private company can't simply increase it's income to pay for whatever package negotiation reaches. Government, however, can do that to some extent. Government can also run deficits to pay for that shit while a private company can't do that all the time.

Companies can raise prices and cut other costs. If the price of, say, steel rises, countless manufacturers figure out how to deal with it.
Yes, governments can raise taxes and run deficits, but politicians who consistently do so soon face job-security issues of their own.


But, there is a limit as to how much a company can raise prices, isn't there? If a company ends up cutting people because they simply can't just raise prices and there aren't savings enough to keep the doors open anywhere else, then what? They get blamed for being anti-worker. Government doesn't have that limit, either. Eventually, it's going to get its money.

Companies that treat their employees well are going to be able to attract people to work for them, and will be able to attract the talent they want. Smart companies know that, and actively work for that.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to dcnovice)
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RE: Yeah, Do you think this is a good idea? - 9/4/2013 9:01:29 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

Hogwash.

I oppose government workers unionization solely for corruption reasons.

Then it would logically follow to oppose corporations on the same grounds.

quote:

In private companies workers and management have adversarial relationships (don't agree with this - but for ease of discussion, assume it). Out of that opposition hopefully comes a deal both sides can live with.

In public unions - no such adversarial relationship exists. To the contrary. Government unions will reliably come out in favor of democrats who will boost their pay, benefits, and pensions.

Peurile opinion without validation.

quote:

The adversarial relationship does not exist - and the taxpayer suffers.

Please cite the instances in which management is not in adversarial relation with labor. Management seeks to lower costs...labor seeks to increase its compensation.

One more additional short hand points:

quote:

a). Govt is what decides the standdards on workers rights, hours, safety etc. Changes can already be effectuated by VOTING. No other powerstructure is necessary.

Please cite where this was accomplished without unions.

quote:

When unions become more important than the citizen - you have a problem.

It is yet to be shown that unions are more important than citizens and it is not clear how this post arrived at that moronic conclusion.


(in reply to Phydeaux)
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RE: Yeah, Do you think this is a good idea? - 9/4/2013 9:03:38 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

So, essentially, those intimidated into not voting are voting in favor of the union.

Any validation for this insipid horse shit?


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RE: Yeah, Do you think this is a good idea? - 9/4/2013 9:06:08 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

You really want to dredge all that up again? Damn.


Inconvenient facts?

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
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RE: Yeah, Do you think this is a good idea? - 9/4/2013 9:08:47 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
So, essentially, those intimidated into not voting are voting in favor of the union.

Any validation for this insipid horse shit?


Try to follow the logic, Thompson.

A vote to decertify requires majority of members (as opposed to majority of voters), right? If there are 5,000 members, then, 2501 votes are needed to decertify; 50%+1 of all members.

1,000 members don't vote. That means, you need 62.5% +1 (2,500/4,000 +1 vote)of the voters to vote for decertification. 1,000 non-votes are effectively votes to maintain certification.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Yeah, Do you think this is a good idea? - 9/4/2013 9:12:04 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
quote:

You really want to dredge all that up again? Damn.

Inconvenient facts?


Not at all. It was quite a <ahem> "lively" <ahem> discussion that didn't really end up resolved. I would really like to see how many people actually had their opinions do a 180 because of that discussion. Bringing that mess back in will only derail this discussion. Unless that is really what you're going after...


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Yeah, Do you think this is a good idea? - 9/4/2013 9:15:14 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:


My men chose options...instead of the unions....and they make 35% more than had they chosen the unions (and they did prior to being approached by same).



(in reply to Phydeaux)
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RE: Yeah, Do you think this is a good idea? - 9/4/2013 9:17:09 AM   
mnottertail


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My understanding is that is not true.

It is like an election, election. The majority of participating members voting...

If at least 30 percent of the workers in the bargaining unit sign the petition, then it must be sent to the NLRB's closest regional office, along with a cover sheet, NLRB Form 502. Once the petitions have been received and validated, the NLRB will set a date for the decertification election, usually about 60 days in the future. Individuals on both sides may campaign to sway the employees. When the vote is held, if a majority of the workers who participate favor decertifying the union, or if the vote results in a tie, then the NLRB will officially remove the union's recognition as the bargaining representative of the workers.

http://www.nlrb.gov/what-we-do/conduct-elections
http://www.unionfacts.com/article/union-member-resources/how-to-decertify-your-union/
http://www.shrm.org/TemplatesTools/hrqa/Pages/decertifyaunion.aspx


So, cute hallucinations, but hallucinations none the less. It would be nice if facts could be drummed up in the right-wing world occasionally, and one could then discuss the issues, rather than the fucking cretinism.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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RE: Yeah, Do you think this is a good idea? - 9/4/2013 9:20:00 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
quote:

You really want to dredge all that up again? Damn.

Inconvenient facts?


Not at all. It was quite a <ahem> "lively" <ahem> discussion that didn't really end up resolved. I would really like to see how many people actually had their opinions do a 180 because of that discussion. Bringing that mess back in will only derail this discussion. Unless that is really what you're going after...


Derail the discussion...for fucks sake it is the same fucking discussion. The punkassmotherfuckeers failed to protect their employees by putting money in their pockets.
Only the most juvinile jejune puerile korporate sycophant would see it otherwise.


< Message edited by thompsonx -- 9/4/2013 9:32:51 AM >

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RE: Yeah, Do you think this is a good idea? - 9/4/2013 9:22:55 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

So, cute hallucinations, but hallucinations none the less. It would be nice if facts could be drummed up in the right-wing world occasionally, and one could then discuss the issues, rather than the fucking cretinism.

Some would prefer to self identify as a cretin rather than admit their ignorance and political bias

(in reply to mnottertail)
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RE: Yeah, Do you think this is a good idea? - 9/4/2013 9:27:48 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
My understanding is that is not true.
It is like an election, election. The majority of participating members voting...
If at least 30 percent of the workers in the bargaining unit sign the petition, then it must be sent to the NLRB's closest regional office, along with a cover sheet, NLRB Form 502. Once the petitions have been received and validated, the NLRB will set a date for the decertification election, usually about 60 days in the future. Individuals on both sides may campaign to sway the employees. When the vote is held, if a majority of the workers who participate favor decertifying the union, or if the vote results in a tie, then the NLRB will officially remove the union's recognition as the bargaining representative of the workers.
http://www.nlrb.gov/what-we-do/conduct-elections
http://www.unionfacts.com/article/union-member-resources/how-to-decertify-your-union/
http://www.shrm.org/TemplatesTools/hrqa/Pages/decertifyaunion.aspx
So, cute hallucinations, but hallucinations none the less. It would be nice if facts could be drummed up in the right-wing world occasionally, and one could then discuss the issues, rather than the fucking cretinism.


My mistake. I read it wrong. It does have to do with the majority of votes cast, not majority of membership.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Yeah, Do you think this is a good idea? - 9/4/2013 9:50:31 AM   
mnottertail


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Your mistake is fine, DS, because it turned on events, it is the originator of so many of those mistakes that is noisome.

quote:


Actually, the question of whether it is a majority of those voting - or a majority of all members is *very* much in the air.

The NLRB has rule that is must be a majority of all members. So, essentially, those intimidated into not voting are voting in favor of the union.

Now, of course, that ruling was *completely* illegal as it was done without a legal quorum. However, no doubt that rule will be re-established.. soon.


Pontificating horseshit is still pontificating horseshit. One should not lecture those who have knowledge as if you are in the same class. There aint a fucking thing that is in the air, and NLRB has no such rule and it is all asswipe, *very* *completely* asswipe.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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RE: Yeah, Do you think this is a good idea? - 9/4/2013 8:06:05 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

I used to support labor unions, and overall, I still support the basic concepts of workers' rights, fair wage/benefit packages, safe working conditions, etc. However, I think that organized labor has shown itself to be more of a liability than an asset to the remaining 90% of the workforce that hasn't been afforded the privilege of being part of a union.

What is it about unions that you do not like?


Everything.

Every encounter I've ever had with unions has been pure thuggery. Like trying to charge me $150 to screw in two incandescant lights in the Jarvis center.

Like shutting down my school in order to pay janitors $25.63 an hour
"justice for janitors".

Like the Davis-Bacon act. Where anyone working on govt contracts must pay union rates, regardless of whether their workers are union or not. Just a way of preventing union shops from going broke at taxpayer expense.

SEUI. Where do I start?

Unionization of govt workers is just a special interest sucking off the govt tit.





Yes......all the above.

(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 60
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