RE: Yeah, Do you think this is a good idea?

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RE: Yeah, Do you think this is a good idea? - 9/5/2013 8:56:23 AM

thompsonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sloguy02246

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
That would be a peurile ignorant opinion as opposed to the fact that unions help labor and that seems to offend those who would seek to return to slavery.

Slavery? Is that the only argument you have in support of Unions?

Have a good day, Mr. Irrelevant.

When management dictates wages and work conditions that is the definition of slavery.
Mr irrelevant?????I realize that name calling,for some,is the highest level of intelectual discourse.

Sorry, but that is not really slavery, because after management dictates their terms for wages and working conditions, an employee can refuse those terms and quit. A slave does not get to quit.

Then the employee can eat dirt and sleep in the gutter...
Slaves can quit...all you have to do is quit breathing.

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RE: Yeah, Do you think this is a good idea? - 9/5/2013 8:58:29 AM

DesideriScuri

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Slavery? Is that the only argument you have in support of Unions?

Sign me up for irrelevance then because I think that connection is pretty obvious. In this day & age of corporatism it seems to me that labor had better get it's act together because capital surely has. You are aware, right, that corporations lie, cheat, and steal from their employees with impunity. They both break the law and bend it in ways which are astonishing. Even worse, they write the freakin laws.
So you tell me... if not organized labor then where is the fight going to come from? Or is it that you believe in corporatism and the unfettered power of... well... power.

Wait. Corporations lie, cheat and steal from employees? How is that legal? Isn't that something Government should be involved in?

Slaves (in a non-BDSM context) do not have the luxury of opting out of that employment. Employees actually do. Unions aren't taking the fight to Corporatism, either. They are only fighting for their members and the Union. That isn't fighting Corporatism. That is fighting just that Corporation.

You don't want Corporations to write the laws? Then, don't let them. Why are they writing the laws? Is it because they are buying politicians? Why aren't Unions railing against all politicians that can be bought? They don't. They only rail against the politicians they haven't bought.

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Post #: 82

RE: Yeah, Do you think this is a good idea? - 9/5/2013 9:02:31 AM

DesideriScuri

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
Unions were necessary.
Much of what Unions originally fought for have been coded into labor regulations.
Unions are necessary. That was the point.

You made a claim that my statement was a false premise. Yet, the statement you cited as a false premise wasn't a claim I made. You can disagree with my statement and make your own claims that Unions are still necessary. Just don't misrepresent.

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Post #: 83

RE: Yeah, Do you think this is a good idea? - 9/5/2013 9:09:49 AM

thompsonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

What Unions are fighting for now and what they originally fought for are quite different.

That would be your unsubstantiated opinion.

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Post #: 84

RE: Yeah, Do you think this is a good idea? - 9/5/2013 9:12:32 AM

DesideriScuri

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
What Unions are fighting for now and what they originally fought for are quite different.

That would be your unsubstantiated opinion.

And your disagreement is unsubstantiated opinion, as well.

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What I support:

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Personal Responsibility
Help for the truly needy
Limited Government
Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

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Post #: 85

RE: Yeah, Do you think this is a good idea? - 9/5/2013 9:40:13 AM

mnottertail

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
Unions were necessary.
Much of what Unions originally fought for have been coded into labor regulations.
Unions are necessary. That was the point.

You made a claim that my statement was a false premise. Yet, the statement you cited as a false premise wasn't a claim I made. You can disagree with my statement and make your own claims that Unions are still necessary. Just don't misrepresent.

Unions were necessary. (false premise)
Much of what Unions originally fought for have been coded into labor regulations. (non-sequitur if the preceeding was a premise)
∴, iff current state of being ARE, not past WERE. then I wouldnt have said it.

But, yes, I guess you have a point and I can see where it could be considered a misrepresentation.

I do apologize.

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RE: Yeah, Do you think this is a good idea? - 9/5/2013 9:49:41 AM

DesideriScuri

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
But, yes, I guess you have a point and I can see where it could be considered a misrepresentation.
I do apologize.

Thank you.

Now, back to our regular scheduled programming. lol

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What I support:

A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
Personal Responsibility
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Limited Government
Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

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Post #: 87

RE: Yeah, Do you think this is a good idea? - 9/5/2013 9:50:30 AM

mnottertail

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no fa niente.

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Post #: 88

RE: Yeah, Do you think this is a good idea? - 9/5/2013 10:17:21 AM

sloguy02246

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: sloguy02246

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
That would be a peurile ignorant opinion as opposed to the fact that unions help labor and that seems to offend those who would seek to return to slavery.

Slavery? Is that the only argument you have in support of Unions?

Have a good day, Mr. Irrelevant.

When management dictates wages and work conditions that is the definition of slavery.
Mr irrelevant?????I realize that name calling,for some,is the highest level of intelectual discourse.

Sorry, but that is not really slavery, because after management dictates their terms for wages and working conditions, an employee can refuse those terms and quit. A slave does not get to quit.

Then the employee can eat dirt and sleep in the gutter...
Slaves can quit...all you have to do is quit breathing.

Well, at least I got a response. Not necessarily an intelligent or unemotional one, but still a response.
For my part, I think it clearly displays the responder's biased attitude and beliefs toward fellow human beings he considers to be socially inferior to him. I will simply add that this is the same attitude that led to the establishment and rapid rise of unionism in the workplace.

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Post #: 89

RE: Yeah, Do you think this is a good idea? - 9/5/2013 6:07:30 PM

LookieNoNookie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

DC, unions, as many have stated, had their purpose, and they provided that purpose well and good but, today unions are operated by thugs. They demand and extract tithes, much of which is spent on their gain....not yours.

That logic would require us to disband congress,are you in favor of that? Well, there are some who might find that appealing.

quote:

I won't go into the details...many would refute them (I lived them) for their own purposes....if a union would provide me with employees that could produce value in accord to their cost....I'd be all over it...but they can't, they don't and...they don't even try.

It is quite difficult to secure journeyman level labor for minimum wage. Are you in favor of a minimum wage? If not then that would be prima facia evidence that you wish to hire labor for less than minimum wage...unions were created to deal with scum like that.

Well, considering I never said any such thing (nor did I even suggest such a thing), I'd think that was a bit of a (convoluted) stretch.

quote:

I've told this story before but,

It was a bullshit story the first time and it has not got any better with the repeated telling.

quote:

Unions don't give a shit about you...they give a shit about unions.

You ain't the union....you are nothing more than a cog.

(Who are more often than not...in the way).

So labor would be better off without a union to negotiate for them?
That worked out not so well in the past why do you think it will do better now?

Yes, today they would, and in fact, are. 60 years ago...no.

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Post #: 90

RE: Yeah, Do you think this is a good idea? - 9/5/2013 6:09:07 PM

LookieNoNookie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
That would be a peurile ignorant opinion as opposed to the fact that unions help labor and that seems to offend those who would seek to return to slavery.

Slavery? Is that the only argument you have in support of Unions?

Have a good day, Mr. Irrelevant.

When management dictates wages and work conditions that is the definition of slavery.
Mr irrelevant?????I realize that name calling,for some,is the highest level of intelectual discourse.

Uhm....actually, that is the definition of an offer of employment.

Everyone has a right to say "no thank you"...and they often do.

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Post #: 91

RE: Yeah, Do you think this is a good idea? - 9/5/2013 6:14:47 PM

LookieNoNookie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Oh, I understood what you were saying. But, many people see government as a "necessary evil." The lack of government would lead to significant strides towards anarchy. Government is necessary. Unions were necessary. Much of what Unions originally fought for have been coded into labor regulations. Ending Unions won't repeal those regulations.

What have you seen in the behavior of management that would indicate to you that unions are no longer necessary?

Lemme think....uhhhhhh....everything?

Including the fact that, as a union employee you no longer have the right to negotiate your own wage (it's done collectively), that union employees can't claim unemployment (but that burn barrel during strikes is pretty nice, as is the 50 bucks and a turkey they give you at Thanksgiving while you're on strike for reasons even the least math capable can't grasp, and all those nice Honks you get from drivers, those are cool)...yeah...unions are awesome.

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Post #: 92

RE: Yeah, Do you think this is a good idea? - 9/5/2013 6:16:04 PM

LookieNoNookie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: sloguy02246

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
That would be a peurile ignorant opinion as opposed to the fact that unions help labor and that seems to offend those who would seek to return to slavery.

Slavery? Is that the only argument you have in support of Unions?

Have a good day, Mr. Irrelevant.

When management dictates wages and work conditions that is the definition of slavery.
Mr irrelevant?????I realize that name calling,for some,is the highest level of intelectual discourse.

Sorry, but that is not really slavery, because after management dictates their terms for wages and working conditions, an employee can refuse those terms and quit. A slave does not get to quit.

Then the employee can eat dirt and sleep in the gutter...
Slaves can quit...all you have to do is quit breathing.

Anyone can eat dirt (you don't have to be a union member to have that right).

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Post #: 93

RE: Yeah, Do you think this is a good idea? - 9/5/2013 6:17:45 PM

LookieNoNookie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
Unions were necessary.
Much of what Unions originally fought for have been coded into labor regulations.
Unions are necessary. That was the point.

You made a claim that my statement was a false premise. Yet, the statement you cited as a false premise wasn't a claim I made. You can disagree with my statement and make your own claims that Unions are still necessary. Just don't misrepresent.

That's okay Des...he had an entire copy and paste post, responding to me, for something I never even wrote.

Consider the source.

(Interestingly, he attributed....copied and pasted from others....something I actually did say...to another poster...fascinating stuff).

< Message edited by LookieNoNookie -- 9/5/2013 6:35:50 PM >

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RE: Yeah, Do you think this is a good idea? - 9/5/2013 6:19:19 PM

LookieNoNookie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

What Unions are fighting for now and what they originally fought for are quite different.

That would be your unsubstantiated opinion.

Uhhhh....no....that would be history (but....that requires one reads, discerns, etc.).

You're forgiven....everyone here understands the limited tools you're working with.

< Message edited by LookieNoNookie -- 9/5/2013 6:36:14 PM >

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RE: Yeah, Do you think this is a good idea? - 9/5/2013 6:28:59 PM

LookieNoNookie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
Where were the unions when Wal-Mart tried to strike a few months back? Just last week, I saw that some fast-food employees in various locations were going on strike, but why don't I see any unions stepping up to go to bat for these people? Where are they, and what are they doing to improve wages and working conditions for American workers

Since those companies are non union how exactly is the union suppose to help them?

That's no excuse. They can still help them organize. How do you think it was for the early labor leaders? They were going up against non-union companies and took the risks. Are you saying that the union leaders today are nothing but a bunch of pussies? Yeah, I can believe that, but there's hardly anything worth liking, is there? "Oh it's non-union company, we can't do anything." What a load of bullshit. If they had a set of balls and an imagination, they could think of something, couldn't they?

Unions are more about their members, than about the American worker.

"Buy American" was really "Buy Union."

That's the only way it could be. My Dad was chided by a sales guy about having two "foreign" cars in his driveway if he bought a Toyota instead of the Charger the sales guy was trying to get him to buy. Since the Charger was final assembly in Canada, and the Toyota was made in America, the Toyota was actually built by the "American Worker." My Mom's Toyota was made by the American Worker, too. (He still bought the Charger because that was the car he really wanted.)

They'll point out that Toyota's, Honda's, etc. are "foreign-owned" manufacturers, so that's why they aren't American. Yet, when it was "Daimler-Chrysler," Chryslers, Dodge's and Jeeps weren't "foreign-owned" brands. Same goes for Fiat owning Chrysler now.

There are Unions that work hard for their members and earn every penny they get in dues. I do not doubt that at all. But, there are others that work hard for their Union hierarchy at the expense of their members, too.

Interestingly, Chevrolet (GM) has the fewest American parts and labor per vehicle.

The most? Toyota.

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RE: Yeah, Do you think this is a good idea? - 9/5/2013 6:31:53 PM

LookieNoNookie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
So, essentially, those intimidated into not voting are voting in favor of the union.

Any validation for this insipid horse shit?

Try to follow the logic, Thompson. Des!!!! That's a stretch!!!!

A vote to decertify requires majority of members (as opposed to majority of voters), right? If there are 5,000 members, then, 2501 votes are needed to decertify; 50%+1 of all members.

1,000 members don't vote. That means, you need 62.5% +1 (2,500/4,000 +1 vote)of the voters to vote for decertification. 1,000 non-votes are effectively votes to maintain certification.