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RE: Perceptions: What does behavior really indicate? - 7/1/2006 2:40:05 AM   
mons


Posts: 2400
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline 		Greetings to all
 
I am a very modest woman i am a dominant woman but i am shy as they come
this is something i have been working on for sometime, I do not curse and i was taught
by my mother and older sister ladies never spit and to this day i can not spit lol. but is how you are rasied this is something that my mother who came from the south had taught to her. we had to wear gloves always carry a napkins for wiping thing off of our faces.
We were taught to always keep our legs closed never sit wrong sit up right. I was taught and this is funny as a black woman many of my frieds when i was younger use that slang and would curse and all of the things bu tmy mother and father would slap us if we use the word"aint" so as i grow up i was tease so bad just because i  was taught not to speak in that manner the  one thing they would say " your trying to be white" i was shocked . it did not make sense , no one taught them that you can not go very far talking like a hood rat.
I teach my son to speak the same way and being modest is nice i like now i am shy but strong, i have manners and know how to  speak very well. I know the part about being white sounds so wierd but it happens still, my son is gifted and an artist he hide how smart  he was from his friends how strang.
 
But i am a lady through and through and i like it so much.  it is funny being a shy domme
 
best wishes to all  oh yes i am bless with lovely skin my older sister taught me how to take care of it and not to  wear makeup i stick just wear lipstick
 
mons

(in reply to CreativeDominant)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Perceptions: What does behavior really indicate? - 7/1/2006 3:00:04 AM   
ExistentialSteel


Posts: 676
Joined: 1/18/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SweetSarijane

As Swayze said in Roadhouse, "There's a time to be nice and a time to not be nice." I am courteous in general to most all I meet, respect is different. That is earned and few earn it from me. If there is someone I am at odds with, I generally try to avoid them. If I can't and they are spiteful and nasty to me, I will address that and then move on and go about my business.

Whether the subs I meet/see are courteous and quiet or brash and sassy does not say anything about their submissiveness. Even those who are nasty and bitchy can still be submissives.


I love quotes from that haha movie, too. Yours fits perfectly and I'll add one to the subject. "Opinions vary."

Sure courteous people are seen as more self-confident, cultured and wiser.



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For those who are like Roman Candles leaving bright trails in the night sky while the crowd watches until the dark blue center light bursts into magnificent colors and the crowd goes, ahhhhhhhhhh.

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RE: Perceptions: What does behavior really indicate? - 7/1/2006 6:27:03 AM   
zumala


Posts: 1121
Joined: 6/16/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

What do you think? When you meet a courteous submissive, do you automatically assume that here is a submissive who is a doormat? When you meet a submissive who appears to have little in the way of manners/respect, do you automatically assume that they aren't really submissive or are just playing at it?



I have not yet read the thread in its entirety.  I wished to answer the question posed without any outside bias. 
 
Courtesy to me indicates intelligence and thought.  To my way of thinking, a courteous submissive does not at all indicate a doormat.  I think once upon a time someone with manners was termed 'well-bred'.  I personally favor politeness to... less friendly behavior.
 
Now, that said, not everyone had the good fortune to be taught good manners.  They may have a submissive heart and show it through actions and devotion even while they say things that don't sound all that great.  You can have a good heart and a dirty mouth.  I've seen it before.
 
So, as in everything else in life, it all boils down to the individual.  You have to know them before you know what they are really like.  That can be a difficult thing in a forum setting, because you miss out on a lot of body language and cannot hear someone's tone of voice.
 
zuma

(in reply to CreativeDominant)
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RE: Perceptions: What does behavior really indicate? - 7/1/2006 6:31:01 AM   
Bearlee


Posts: 2311
Joined: 10/25/2004
From: South Central CO
Status: offline 		 
Okay, I’m going to use a quote from another thread (Levels of Submissives).  Perhaps I’ll be flamed again; but it seems to me to be a wonderful example of what the OP is discussing.  When I read this ‘explanation’…I was so stunned, I couldn’t even reply.  I’ll give it a try here. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Bearlee, you seem to be trying to define submissiveness in a different way than I do. I will give you my view, not that it is more valid than any other mind you.

Take two people calling themselves submissives involved in power exchanges. One to the outsider “looks” like the ideal cooperative submissive. She never talks back and always does as is told. She is also very insecure, from an abusive household, and she has no personal power of her own to give to anyone, she is not a “doormat” even, she is just a broken person that has little choice internally. (I am not saying cooperative obedient subs have been abused btw)

Take the next submissive… she is high functioning, fiery, seems to be in charge most of the time, and her dom doesn’t tell her what to do very often, preferring her the way she is naturally, taking joy in her strong personality. He never has her serve others, preferring to keep her all to himself, and when they are alone he dominates her completely sexually and she serves him well not just that way, but is an asset to him in other ways.

From the outside the first woman looks submissive. The second does not. Personally, in my opinion I cannot understand a power exchange with someone that does not have their own mind and personal power.. it seems like it could not happen. I do understand power exchange can be a subtle thing that could almost be missed by an outsider. The second lady had more power to give than the first… just my way of looking at it 

IMHO (YMMV), this was one of the most ridiculous examples of ‘what is a submissive’ I’ve ever seen.  We had been discussing saying ‘No’…this reply seems to me to also be addressing that; and manners, as well.  That no one even commented on the post, floored me; that someone could see a polite submissive as insecure and broken.  I would suggest an insecure, abused, broken person with no power…mentally ill, not submissive.  Perhaps that’s what the writer meant… I dunno.

Okay, I’ve finally decided that, in this world, if you wanna call yourself ‘submissive’ …then you just ARE.  I wish it worked for flying airplanes, though; that would be fun.  I wanna be a pilot!  Still, what I see as submissive is not necessarily what others see as submissive.  That, for me, one who plays at being submissive (mostly in the bedroom) is just a person who likes the game.  For me, submissiveness is more than pulling hair and kinky sex.  But, I’ve discovered at last, that it upsets bedroom submissives to say that they aren’t ‘real' or 'true’ submissives; and heck…perhaps they are …by their definition.  I no longer care.  They can call themselves pink, too; it matters not.

Having said all this…I am the kind of person who knows a bit about many things; I can carry on a conversation with just about anybody.  I am passionate about my world and many things in it; and I can entertain myself without feeling the need for drama or rocking the boat.  I have a strong personality, I enjoy teasing and playing and innuendo…and I can disagree with my (or any other) Dominant.  However, I am submissive; given a directive by my Dominant…I will not say ‘No’.  Okay…BEFORE I gave him control of me, I would have spent a long time getting to know him.  I would have discerned beforehand that he WOULDN’T ask me to sign over my home, nor my paycheck…and that he wouldn’t be sharing me with strangers.  I could go on and on about the things I hold as ‘hard limits’, but the point is…once I have submitted to this man, I will not say ‘No’.  Should he ask me to do something so extraordinary as to be something I didn’t plan on having to consider…and couldn’t do…my ‘No’ would be a taking back of my power; leaving me no longer submissive to him.  It’s a “Power Exchange”… not a power-loan.  In my world, one cannot pick and choose when and where they choose to be compliant.

This thread is about courtesy…for me, politeness is common decency toward just about everybody and in a D/s setting (time spent with others involved in this ‘lifestyle’) it includes using polite honorifics of ‘Sir’ and ‘Maam’ for Dominants (though, actually, I use them for all persons of ‘authority’…even the clerk in a store who tells me where to find the artichoke hearts…go figure).  But to me, it also includes being compliant to my Dominant.  Being compliant does not mean broken and abused.  Being compliant can also include teasing and bantering, and disagreeing in heated conversation; but it also includes doing as told; doing what you agreed when you exchanged power and gave him/her control over yourself.  I do not see play and innuendo as impossible without respectfulness.  A strong, bright, capable person can interlace it all.

I think that because I’m strong and opinionated, yet very submissive to my Dominant, is what some often find attractive.  I think many Dominants find submissiveness in a strong-willed person…exciting.  Perhaps that is what makes the Geisha so pleasing to men; she is well educated, entertaining, bright and fiery; yet very, very submissive.                And polite.

(in reply to CreativeDominant)
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RE: Perceptions: What does behavior really indicate? - 7/1/2006 6:39:50 AM   
feastie


Posts: 1793
Joined: 6/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CrappyDom

What I find most interesting is those whining about a loss of respect and courtesy are in general those who least deserve it. 



Absolutely, CrappyDom.  I most emphatically agree!

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Disclaimer: Any views expressed in any post are my opinions only. They may or may not be yours.

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RE: Perceptions: What does behavior really indicate? - 7/1/2006 6:54:09 AM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CrappyDom

What I find most interesting is those whining about a loss of respect and courtesy are in general those who least deserve it. 



or give it.

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Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

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RE: Perceptions: What does behavior really indicate? - 7/1/2006 7:01:01 AM   
feastie


Posts: 1793
Joined: 6/4/2004
Status: offline 		Deleted post...I forgot which thread I was on!

*blushes*

< Message edited by feastie -- 7/1/2006 7:02:44 AM >

_____________________________

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Disclaimer: Any views expressed in any post are my opinions only. They may or may not be yours.

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RE: Perceptions: What does behavior really indicate? - 7/1/2006 7:18:25 AM   
ArtimisBlack


Posts: 154
Joined: 6/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring
If I run into anyone (Dom or sub) who is rude, I don't care if they are Dom or sub, they would simply be a jerk.


Exactly. Rudeness is like a wall- it keeps people out. When someone is rude, I don't want to get to know them any better because no matter how amazing they might be *inside* I'm so turned off by their attitude that I can hardly stand being around them.
 
Meeting someone polite and courteous however, is like an open door- you may not jump inside the house, but the feeling of welcome is there. I never think that just because someone knows how to behave and treat other people that they are a doormat be they a Dom or a sub- or anyone else for that matter.
 
 

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RE: Perceptions: What does behavior really indicate? - 7/1/2006 7:20:18 AM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
I do not think that wiitwd has altered in the last 9 years - or 12 - or 15 - or 20.  People are just people.  It hasn't changed, there were bitches back then and there are now.  There has always been the idea of 'doormat submissives' and there always will be.
 
In 30-40 years, there will be people harping back to the good old days in 2006 when dominants were respectful and submissives were polite.  Every generation craves the 'good ole days' because it takes the heat of the present.
 
I don't see two distinct differences in submissives.  I would say I am a different kind and I know many in the same position as me.  There are so many different types of s-types you just cannot sensibly seperate into only two.  What people should do is to take each person as an individual and work on that.
Yup, I am strong willed and able to cope on my own.  But I am polite to dominant people - or other submissives.  Or whatever and whoever you might be.  Respect has nothing to do with politeness.  You do not even have to know the person to have respect for someone, you can gain respect for someone by a vicarious incident.  I do not see doormats, just someone doing it differently to me.  As long as they don't insist on it being my way as well, or infringing on what I have been taught and what I am happy with, its all great.
 
I don't know John Warren but I respect him because I read and enjoy his book and articles and they ring a particular bell in me.  I don't know the dali lama but I have the greatest respect for him... Martin luther... the list goes on.  I respect them for what they have done and for what I have learnt about them.  Respect comes with time.  It isn't earned, it is given freely from an understanding of what who a person is and where they come from.
 
But politeness is always available for those that I pass by or know.  I don't call people Sir or Ma'am because I am not american and it just isnt a thing that is done in the UK, unless you are in a sales situation.  Is BDSM sales?  At times yes, but not always.  But people are so unware of different cultures and different ways of handling things.  Understanding and taking the time to understand is respectful.
 
And reading from a forum, or in a chat room is a different culture.  Theres no voice inflections, no gestures - just words.  And without gestures and voice, the words take alot more time to understand.  And people DON'T take the time.  They personalise, take something as an insult when its not there, because they only read the words.  Some people do not look past the words, ever.  So then the insults start.  And the pissing matches.  And the demands for politeness and respect.
 
The biggest respect you can give someone is your time.  And the most polite thing one can do, is thank the other person for allowing you their time.
 
Peace and Rapture


_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

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RE: Perceptions: What does behavior really indicate? - 7/1/2006 7:23:13 AM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CrappyDom

What I find most interesting is those whining about a loss of respect and courtesy are in general those who least deserve it. 


Really?  What I find interesting is that the post was written from a serious perspective and out of all the answers so far, yours is the one which sums it up as a whine.  

Or perhaps my perception is wrong and your statement is just your personal perception about others' behavior?

I find it interesting is that in many cases, those who make statements about those who decry a lack of courtesy are people with little respect for common courtesy and manners. 

Or would that be a generalization?

(in reply to CrappyDom)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Perceptions: What does behavior really indicate? - 7/1/2006 7:28:52 AM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

Perhaps that is what makes the Geisha so pleasing to men; she is well educated, entertaining, bright and fiery; yet very, very submissive.                And polite.

 
What is pleasing about a geisha, is that she is an artist.  Nothing more, nothing less.
Everything about her is the training.  She exudes what she is - like a airline pilot.  He/she would train to fly the plane, so does a geisha.  Some s-types are like that.  They are trained also.
 
But the difference between a pilot and many s-types is that a pilot, like a geisha endures training and learns and then places their knowledge out there and utilses it. For some s-types, it is in born - from day one... so it is impossible to compare most s-types to a pilot.
 
Peace and Rapture


_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

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RE: Perceptions: What does behavior really indicate? - 7/1/2006 8:09:59 AM   
Bearlee


Posts: 2311
Joined: 10/25/2004
From: South Central CO
Status: offline 		Well…perhaps I was speaking in generalizations.  Sometimes that’s what works.  Generally speaking, I would say a Geisha IS submissive (perhaps that is why they take on the training?).  However, just because one is born – from day one – submissive, does not preclude their enjoying or seeking training to improve their ability to submit.  Does it? 
 
And no, I am not saying a ‘trained’ submissive is better than one not trained.  Earlier I was using the Geisha as an example of well trained, educated, articulate woman who has a mind of her own, but chooses to be very, very submissive.  It is a choice…IMHO.  (I think there are some ‘born’ submissive who rail against it in an effort to develop independence…and so chose NOT to be submissive).

The bottom line (for me) is…it galls me that some insist that a polite, courteous submissive must somehow be flawed. 
 
Personally, I enjoy the exchange of power with another.  And to help me to that end…I read many books on the subject (‘SlaveCraft’ is a good one, BTW…listed under Guy Baldwin’s writings).  Of course, reading books about submission does not a submissive make…any more than reading books on flying makes a pilot.  But…information is always good; no?

(in reply to darkinshadows)
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RE: Perceptions: What does behavior really indicate? - 7/1/2006 8:27:45 AM   
truesub4u


Posts: 2949
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline 		I am so glad I do not spend all my time trying to be so serious as alot of others do. I prefer to find humor in others rudenss. Perhaps someone pisted them off and they have a reason to appear rude to someone in anothers eyes. Some ones actions in ones eyes might appear they're rude... when they have different perceptions of what is rude and what is not. Some are raised certain ways so in their eyes... they're not rude.. they're being themselves. All because someone sees it different.. doesn't always make it so.

I'm an out spoken person.... say what I want.. when I want.. to some.. i'm rude.. to others.. i'm not. I have a short fuse dealing with what I percieve as idiots. Some say i'm rude... others do not. Could it be others have more patients dealing with idiots.. or less patients because of dealing with even more idiots. (Or what they see as idiots...lol) I have more patients for someone who appears to not understand things... or is trying to learn. Where others do not and snap at them.... some see that person being rude...others do not. It depends on who knows ALL of what's going on...and who walks in on the middle of things.

Alot of people on here kiss others ass.... alot of others do not. Because someones not kissing ass... they're rude. Those that are kissing ass... are doormats... weak... I DO NOT SEE IT THIS WAY.  Just trying to make a point here. So the bottom line is .. it's all in how others perceptions. If that's the case... one could say I kiss Misstress and MHOO"s ass all the time. But yet.. I'm always rude to KoM and bearlee... this too isn't true. Granted I call Misstress and MHOO Ma'am most the time.... but they have my respect as people... not doms. KoM alot of times states things I agree with...and disagree with... but he's taught me new things and does most the time he post... Respect him?... sometimes... sometimes not... guess it depends on how I feel he's responding back towards me... sometimes (because of things off line) I'll read it as an attack.. sometimes as something I read as him trying to get me to learn somthing.  But for the most part... I have admiration for KoM. Why?...because like me.. he says what he wants to say... he doesn't sugar coat things. Doesn't mean I have to like it or not... he's just being him. Unfortuantely because of my lack of properly wording things... he doesn't like me responding back to him ......LOL

So it's not respect for titles... it's not ill mannered to be who you are.... some will like you... some will not... you can't please all of the people all of the time....(Yep all the cliches her...LOL)....We've seen others come on here to CM.. (thinking crappydom right off the top of my head)... His first post... my first thought... what a stupid fucker... his name fits him to a T. He has sense then.... showed me.. he can be serious... funny... stupid (in a very funny way)....but most of all.... he's being himself. I can and do respect him for that.. not because he's a dom... because he's just being him.

So before... or even after  you judge someone... take more than one look..... someone might surprise you...


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RE: Perceptions: What does behavior really indicate? - 7/1/2006 8:31:32 AM   
Bearlee


Posts: 2311
Joined: 10/25/2004
From: South Central CO
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ExistentialSteel

Sure courteous people are seen as more self-confident, cultured and wiser.



Apparently not always seen that way.  Some see them as 'doormats' who may be insecure, perhaps abused and without power; a broken person.  I find it very odd.  In fact, that was something that really bothered me about the movie 'Secretary'...that it showed the submissive as coming from a mental hospital.  Geeze!!!

MOO  (MNSVHO)...YMMV

(in reply to ExistentialSteel)
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RE: Perceptions: What does behavior really indicate? - 7/1/2006 8:41:37 AM   
cheshireboy


Posts: 217
Joined: 5/10/2006
Status: offline 		it all comes down to what kind of flavor of ice cream you want.  some want the flavor of ice cream that is smooth and liquid where how good it tastes isn't known till after it is finished, others want the kind of icecream that attacks your taste buds that is very intoxication and you have to lay that spoon hard into it to enjoy it.  both are good, both are equally wanted, just depends on the mood. 
 
for me, i tend to be a borderline SAM, it is hard for me to be respectful to some people that consider themselves Dom/Domme, so i bite my tongue and can be polite, but if i truly respect the person and after they have shown the ability to at least be able to tame me mentally, then i am a most perfect gentleman.
 
but at the end, the icecream always tastes good.

(in reply to TxBadMan)
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RE: Perceptions: What does behavior really indicate? - 7/1/2006 8:56:41 AM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
Apologising to the OP - for this is a side step - so please everyone ignore this if you wish but I wasn't sure it merited it's own thread so I am just adding here.
 
Hi Bearlee,
 
I just wanted to mention about Japanese (which are the only persons permitted to be) Geishas.  They are not submissives or submissive types at all.  They are entertainers.  To outsiders, it may seem they are submissive (and maybe there are some s-types that are geishas, but no more than there are waitress' or bell hops or doctors) but the reason geishas exist are for entertainment purposes only.  They sing, dance and paint/are artists.  Some/most are trained to perform the 'chado' but again, that is for the artistry - not for the service - as is bar preperation.  Being a geisha has nothing to do with submission.  It is a way of preserving the arts and dances.  And they are and never were prostitutes or expected to perform sex of any kind(contrary to what books and films may represent).
 
Just a little side info
Peace and Love


< Message edited by darkinshadows -- 7/1/2006 8:58:29 AM >

_____________________________
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RE: Perceptions: What does behavior really indicate? - 7/1/2006 8:59:37 AM   
Caretakr


Posts: 1221
Joined: 6/24/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bearlee

quote:

ORIGINAL: ExistentialSteel

Sure courteous people are seen as more self-confident, cultured and wiser.



Apparently not always seen that way.  Some see them as 'doormats' who may be insecure, perhaps abused and without power; a broken person.  I find it very odd.  In fact, that was something that really bothered me about the movie 'Secretary'...that it showed the submissive as coming from a mental hospital.  Geeze!!!

MOO  (MNSVHO)...YMMV


Definition of a doormat-one who will do what the disissive party lacks the strength to accomplish. 

(in reply to Bearlee)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Perceptions: What does behavior really indicate? - 7/1/2006 9:02:27 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I do not consider discussing BDSM online to be indicative of more or less courtesy than I would give on any other message board. For all I know anyone or everyone posting here is not what they say they are. I am interacting as someone trying to learn and share with others here, not as a submissive necessarily.

I have respect for the ways in which people decide they want to live their lives and how they want to interact here or in the "real world" when dealing with other lifestylers. When I was looking for a dominant I approached it almost from a vanilla standpoint, get to know me as a person first and as a submissive second. I was not out to win "The Natural Submissive of the Year" award. I was out to be just me, and if there was a mutual attraction of who we were as people then the Ds could be discussed. I was not deferential to anyone. In this approach I found someone that I was well suited for.

I take HIS lead in how I interact with other lifestylers. He tells me how he wants me to behave as my actions are a reflection on him. He has stated I am his submissive and I do not go around calling anyone else "Sir" Ma'am" "Master" "Lord" unless he tells me to. I wouldn't even talk to a dominant without his permission if at an event with him... for my sake, not because of his jealousy. I would not want to shame him in any way. He does not want me to serve another dominant, he doesn't share that part of me. I am HIS toy, no one else's... I take my cues of how to treat other lifestylers from him basically. He is the only one I have to please after all.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to CreativeDominant)
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RE: Perceptions: What does behavior really indicate? - 7/1/2006 9:16:10 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		Bearlee,

I stipulated that a cooperative disciplined submissive wasnt broken... but some people are broken. I think you misapplied my statement and took it out of context. I also think you misunderstood it but that is another story. No hard feelings about it,.. just didnt mean it the way you took it.

Not all people can give power away.. you have to have it and some people don't have it. Someone that has been abused over a lifetime and is broken inside doesnt have it. I havent met too many people that are like that... I have never met a sub like that personally. I have never read a sub that is broken on this board... not completely.. I am saying that appearances are deceiving, and I do not see how that post made a couple of weeks ago belongs here.

Peace Bearlee... and I am not feeling flamed by this, just perplexed

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Bearlee)
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RE: Perceptions: What does behavior really indicate? - 7/1/2006 9:17:55 AM   
Bearlee


Posts: 2311
Joined: 10/25/2004
From: South Central CO
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Caretakr

Definition of a doormat-one who will do what the disissive party lacks the strength to accomplish.     



LOL   I love it! 

(in reply to Caretakr)
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