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RE: Perceptions: What does behavior really indicate? - 7/1/2006 10:00:59 AM   
hizgeorgiapeach


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

Now, as to my question. For many submissives in the second group, those submissives in the first group are "dumb doormats" or "desperate". For many submissives in the first group, those in the second group are "sham submissives" or "closet manhaters"
How does anyone from either group know this for certain? Or are they just going by perception?

What do you think? When you meet a courteous submissive, do you automatically assume that here is a submissive who is a doormat? When you meet a submissive who appears to have little in the way of manners/respect, do you automatically assume that they aren't really submissive or are just playing at it?

CAVEAT: I am not stating that one group is better than the other...let's make that clear. I purposely hold off stating my own opinion on this at first so as to get discussion going about the questions asked.


As someone who would very Very loosely fit in that second "group" I would like to pose a few questions of my own.
 
Is the assumption here one that... if we don't grant you a title, special privilage, or BETTER than common courtesy - that we're somehow being rude, or that we're automatically unfriendly?  Why should it matter to me, honestly, that Jane Doe happens to bend the knee to Joe Blow?  Or that Joe Blow and Jane Doe, and perhaps even some others, therefore give good ole Joe the title of "dominant."  I'm not in a relationship with him.  Me walking up when I see them together at the local dungeon and smiling and saying "Hey Joe, Hey Jane, good to see the two of you!  Hope you enjoy playing tonight." ... is not rude, is not disrespectful, is not discourtious, and is not unfriendly.  Nor does it confer a completely unnecessary and unearned BETTER than normal behavior/level of courtesy.
 
For myself - courtesy and good manners have not a thing to do with respect, nor am I prone to considering someone a doormat for displaying good manners - male or female, dominant or submissive.  I just assume they were raised with manners.  When someone can't think for themselves and follows any order given regardless of whether it's going to be Harmful to them, when they lack discrimination on Who they will allow to give them orders, and when they allow themselves to be Abused without even considering a means of extracting themselves from it... THEN I consider them a doormat.
 
 
Nor do I simply jump to the conclusion that someone is "not a submissive" if they happen to be lacking in manners.  I simply assume that either (a) they're having a Really bad day, and have been pushed past the point of endurance or (b) they're simply someone that I don't want to associate with - in or out of scene, regardless of any other considerations.
 
I'm one who is rather quick to put people in their place, relative to me, when they start coming on all high and mighty "kiss my rump because I'm a dominant."  So What?  I don't know you.  I haven't agreed to submit to you.  I haven't offered you any authority over me.  I'm just as quick to put someone in their place relative to me when they act as though I should be Impressed because they happen to bend the knee and pretend towards some sort of perfect obedience without ever an off day or the thought crossing their mind (even secretly) that "hey, yer bein a jerk, master - to bad I can't TELL you that I think yer bein a jerk!"

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RE: Perceptions: What does behavior really indicate? - 7/1/2006 10:02:03 AM   
Bearlee


Posts: 2311
Joined: 10/25/2004
From: South Central CO
Status: offline 		I see you've read a bit about Geishas, and you are partly right…but times do change.  Geishas are not all Japanese…though I suppose purists would argue that.   But gee, thanks for your opinion.

Who suggested Geishas are prostitutes?  Or…are you suggesting submissives are prostitutes?  I wonder if you’re suggesting, as so many do, that submissives are expected to perform sexually?

I will stand by my example.  Geishas ARE “pleasing to men; … well educated, entertaining, bright and fiery; yet very, very submissive.   And polite.”  While perhaps they are not into BDSM or ‘the lifestyle’…I would say they ARE submissive; the bright, entertaining, interesting ‘have a brain’ kind. 

But you’re right…let’s not hijack this post, too.  Perhaps you should start a thread on ‘What is a Geisha’…so you can let us all know. 

(Dang…I have SUCH a hard time with people who speak in pronouncements…              …..just a little side info.)       Peace and Love


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RE: Perceptions: What does behavior really indicate? - 7/1/2006 10:05:28 AM   
Brosco


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Status: offline 		Courtesy goes both ways ...  as a Dom into Orgasm Control I never demand.. I respectfully request:  "Cum for me now please Linda" 

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RE: Perceptions: What does behavior really indicate? - 7/1/2006 10:20:13 AM   
Bearlee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brosco

Courtesy goes both ways ...  as a Dom into Orgasm Control I never demand.. I respectfully request:  "Cum for me now please Linda"   


Yummieeeee!  LOL   Now, while that was funny, Sir...I can't begin to tell you how lovely it is to be talked to in that manner.  Yes, I'd agree; courtesy DOES go both ways. 
 
When I Top...I include 'please' and 'thank you'.  Most of the Dom/mes I know, do as well.  Actually, only online have I seen those 'kiss my rump cuz I'm Dominant' kinda people.  It is silly to assume a Dominant can't also be polite and courteous.  Manners never gave way to strength.  It is my opinion that demanding something is generally 'over the top'...a simple request from my Dominant works just fine for me!

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RE: Perceptions: What does behavior really indicate? - 7/1/2006 10:25:13 AM   
onyurknees


Posts: 26
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Status: offline 		It seems odd to me that people should take courtesy and assume from that behaviour that they know a great deal about the person demonstrating it.
Courtesy is learned behaviour and one that has always been important in keeping society working more smoothly. Courtesy is something which I freely give people until I have ascertained that they merit my respect ... which is not so easily given.
When I see subs or dom/mes who are not courteous, I can only suspect one of two things. Either they have never been taught good manners (sadly we are not born with these) or that they were but choose not to display them which I suspect to mean that they don't particuarly respect an individual.
And when I see someone behaving in a courteous manner, I would never think of them as spineless or anything of the sort. For one thing, it can great strength of character to be courteous to people you neither like nor respect. If I see a sub being apparently discourteous to his or her dominant, I think that this is a dynamic which these people have both agreed to let happen, either because the dominant enjoys punishing her/his sub for it later or because they are less hung up on some of the protocols than others might be.

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RE: Perceptions: What does behavior really indicate? - 7/1/2006 10:26:03 AM   
darkinshadows


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Hi Bearlee
 
No, nobody said that geishas or submissives have anything to do purely with sex, thats what your reading into my words.  Your 'perception'... so we are still on target with the OP.  I was simply passing on a bit of history, which you may or may not want - maybe I, in some bizarre way, thought you may be graceful enough to share experiences (I thought that is what a forum and message board was for).  But in this case, I am wrong.
If you do not like my posts, feel free to ignore them.
 
I wasn't saying you were wrong, or anything other than a bit of geisha history.  Please don't take things so personally, its just a little conversation, nothing more... it really helps not to second guess people all the time and you don't have to get so personal - really.
 
Geishas are japanese.  That isn't a purest view, that is fact.  It's not up for discussion.  Just like the cornish are British, or that germany is part of europe.  I have been extremely fortunate to train a little under the watchful guidence of the most beautiful woman and even those who train to completion in the art of a geisha would never call themselves geishas, only profess the art.  They never were supposed to be pleasing to men, that isn't their history.  That men find them pleasing - doesn't change what they are.  Geishas are not submissive.  That is akin to saying that all barstaff are submissive because they are pleasing to their customers.  Or all artists are because what they do is pleasing.  Geishas serve.  There is a huge difference between serving and submission.  Geishas carry on tradition and art.  They are trained in flower arranging.  They play ancient instruments and speak long lost dialects.  Everything they do and perform is art.  'Perform' is the key word.
 
I think that if someone wants to start or more people request I start a thread on Geishas, they will let me know.  However I think that our discussion has been a good example of politeness and courtesy - respect and general behaviour - on how perceptions cloud reality and fact.
 
Peace and Rapture
 
*edit because my typing sucks this afternoon.


< Message edited by darkinshadows -- 7/1/2006 10:36:08 AM >

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RE: Perceptions: What does behavior really indicate? - 7/1/2006 10:46:02 AM   
Brosco


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Status: offline 		sheeeezzzz.....  an example of how to courtesly attack another!!!!!

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RE: Perceptions: What does behavior really indicate? - 7/1/2006 12:02:40 PM   
losttreasure


Posts: 875
Joined: 12/17/2005
Status: offline 		Addressing first, the original question...

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

What do you think? When you meet a courteous submissive, do you automatically assume that here is a submissive who is a doormat? When you meet a submissive who appears to have little in the way of manners/respect, do you automatically assume that they aren't really submissive or are just playing at it?


No.  When faced with someone who behaves courteously... irrespective of their position, status, or other identifying traits... I recognize that person as having an interest in how he or she is regarded and responded to, for whatever reason. 

Generally speaking, people displaying rudeness do not care about the opinions of others witnessing their behavior, or, are ignorant with regard to how they are being perceived.

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

...When I was getting started, there seemed to be much more evidence of courteous attitudes towards others...


It's possible that this is true.  After all, courtesy is nothing more than polite behavior... polite behavior being defined as being mindful of, conforming to, or marked by good manners.  And manners, in the end, are just social deportment; the socially correct way of acting... in other words, the prevailing customs, social conduct, and norms of a specific society, period, or group.  *shrugs*  Like it or not, times change.

But I suspect it is more a matter of perception.

quote:

ORIGINAL: CrappyDom

What I find most interesting is those whining about a loss of respect and courtesy are in general those who least deserve it. 



I'm not sure that there are those who either deserve more or less courtesy than others.  I view courtesy as being more for the benefit of the person displaying it, though that's not saying the recipient cannot be equally appreciative depending upon the motivation. 

However respect is another issue entirely.  Respect is the state of being regarded with honor or esteem... and yes, I've noticed that those who typically beat their chest demanding it (or complain about the lack thereof), are least worthy.

But I don't believe that was the point of CreativeDominant's post.

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RE: Perceptions: What does behavior really indicate? - 7/1/2006 12:22:02 PM   
CreativeDominant


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hizgeorgiapeach

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

Now, as to my question. For many submissives in the second group, those submissives in the first group are "dumb doormats" or "desperate". For many submissives in the first group, those in the second group are "sham submissives" or "closet manhaters"
How does anyone from either group know this for certain? Or are they just going by perception?

What do you think? When you meet a courteous submissive, do you automatically assume that here is a submissive who is a doormat? When you meet a submissive who appears to have little in the way of manners/respect, do you automatically assume that they aren't really submissive or are just playing at it?

CAVEAT: I am not stating that one group is better than the other...let's make that clear. I purposely hold off stating my own opinion on this at first so as to get discussion going about the questions asked.


As someone who would very Very loosely fit in that second "group" I would like to pose a few questions of my own.
 
Is the assumption here one that... if we don't grant you a title, special privilage, or BETTER than common courtesy - that we're somehow being rude, or that we're automatically unfriendly?  Why should it matter to me, honestly, that Jane Doe happens to bend the knee to Joe Blow?  Or that Joe Blow and Jane Doe, and perhaps even some others, therefore give good ole Joe the title of "dominant."  I'm not in a relationship with him.  Me walking up when I see them together at the local dungeon and smiling and saying "Hey Joe, Hey Jane, good to see the two of you!  Hope you enjoy playing tonight." ... is not rude, is not disrespectful, is not discourtious, and is not unfriendly.  Nor does it confer a completely unnecessary and unearned BETTER than normal behavior/level of courtesy.
 
For myself - courtesy and good manners have not a thing to do with respect, nor am I prone to considering someone a doormat for displaying good manners - male or female, dominant or submissive.  I just assume they were raised with manners.  When someone can't think for themselves and follows any order given regardless of whether it's going to be Harmful to them, when they lack discrimination on Who they will allow to give them orders, and when they allow themselves to be Abused without even considering a means of extracting themselves from it... THEN I consider them a doormat.
 
 
Nor do I simply jump to the conclusion that someone is "not a submissive" if they happen to be lacking in manners.  I simply assume that either (a) they're having a Really bad day, and have been pushed past the point of endurance or (b) they're simply someone that I don't want to associate with - in or out of scene, regardless of any other considerations.
 
I'm one who is rather quick to put people in their place, relative to me, when they start coming on all high and mighty "kiss my rump because I'm a dominant."  So What?  I don't know you.  I haven't agreed to submit to you.  I haven't offered you any authority over me.  I'm just as quick to put someone in their place relative to me when they act as though I should be Impressed because they happen to bend the knee and pretend towards some sort of perfect obedience without ever an off day or the thought crossing their mind (even secretly) that "hey, yer bein a jerk, master - to bad I can't TELL you that I think yer bein a jerk!"

Since I am the original poster, I'll answer your questions from the perspective of my OP.  As for anyone else's answers to your questions, I'll leave that up to them.

No, there are no assumptions being made that not giving someone a title or special privilege or BETTER than common courtesy is rude.  Failure to grant common courtesy ONLY to anyone...whether they be a store clerk or a friend or a teacher or a parent or a dominant or another submissive...is what is considered, in this instance, to be rude.  Courtesy is not by my definition but the definition to be found in any dictionary.  In your first example of walking up to someone and greeting them in a pleasant manner, courtesy is shown.

As for courtesy equating to respect, I never mentioned that anywhere in my post.  My post was whether or not someone else's behavior indicated, for each person reading the question, what type of person... in this specific case only, submissive...that person was and whether or not that is true or just our perception.  This is what you touched on in your 3rd and 4th paragraphs.

Thanks for your additional thoughts.

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RE: Perceptions: What does behavior really indicate? - 7/1/2006 12:25:02 PM   
CreativeDominant


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quote:

ORIGINAL: losttreasure

quote:

ORIGINAL: CrappyDom

What I find most interesting is those whining about a loss of respect and courtesy are in general those who least deserve it. 



I'm not sure that there are those who either deserve more or less courtesy than others.  I view courtesy as being more for the benefit of the person displaying it, though that's not saying the recipient cannot be equally appreciative depending upon the motivation. 

However respect is another issue entirely.  Respect is the state of being regarded with honor or esteem... and yes, I've noticed that those who typically beat their chest demanding it (or complain about the lack thereof), are least worthy.

But I don't believe that was the point of CreativeDominant's post.

Thanks, losttreasure.

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RE: Perceptions: What does behavior really indicate? - 7/1/2006 12:40:51 PM   
losttreasure


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

Thanks, losttreasure.


You are quite welcome. 

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RE: Perceptions: What does behavior really indicate? - 7/1/2006 12:41:28 PM   
darkinshadows


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The perception is the personalisation of what is said, done or written.
That has nothing to do with the actual event.
One can perceive anything, anyhow, in anyway by imprinting their response onto what is done.
So if someone behaves in a manner that is not within the acceptable parameters of another - then they take that person and place them within their own neat little box.
 
If your perceived as 'rude' then you must be a brat.
If you say 'Sir' all the time, to all Males in BDSM, then you must be a doormat.
If you are an online dominant or submissive, then your not 'real'.
(These are examples - not ideas I personally adhere to - geesh for disclaimers)
 
Its easy to say there are two types of submissives, or that all dominants are this way inclined, or all switches are confused or most geishas must be submissive.  It takes patience and time and a hell of alot of difficult days to see that nothing can be boxed.
 
Each perception is unique.  And not always right.  But thats where communication and acceptance is much more important IMO on a face to face basis.  Understanding and knowledge are excellent tools people have at their disposel, but they are pointless and useless when infected by personal perception - yet enhanced with communication and acceptance.
 
Peace and Rapture


< Message edited by darkinshadows -- 7/1/2006 12:43:58 PM >

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RE: Perceptions: What does behavior really indicate? - 7/1/2006 12:55:25 PM   
Brosco


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quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

The perception is the personalisation of what is said, done or written.
That has nothing to do with the actual event.
One can perceive anything, anyhow, in anyway by imprinting their response onto what is done.
So if someone behaves in a manner that is not within the acceptable parameters of another - then they take that person and place them within their own neat little box.
 
If your perceived as 'rude' then you must be a brat.
If you say 'Sir' all the time, to all Males in BDSM, then you must be a doormat.
If you are an online dominant or submissive, then your not 'real'.
(These are examples - not ideas I personally adhere to - geesh for disclaimers)
 
Its easy to say there are two types of submissives, or that all dominants are this way inclined, or all switches are confused or most geishas must be submissive.  It takes patience and time and a hell of alot of difficult days to see that nothing can be boxed.
 
Each perception is unique.  And not always right.  But thats where communication and acceptance is much more important IMO on a face to face basis.  Understanding and knowledge are excellent tools people have at their disposel, but they are pointless and useless when infected by personal perception - yet enhanced with communication and acceptance.
 
Peace and Rapture




uuummmmmm   ****scratching my head *****   and your point was????????

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RE: Perceptions: What does behavior really indicate? - 7/1/2006 1:12:12 PM   
darkinshadows


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For you?
It is whatever you perceive it to be.
 
Peace and Rapture


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RE: Perceptions: What does behavior really indicate? - 7/1/2006 1:23:31 PM   
Brosco


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quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

For you?
It is whatever you perceive it to be.
 
Peace and Rapture



I wish to thank you for making a totally incomprehensible post even more so....   I guess that qualifies tho..  what does the behaviour of another menn?

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RE: Perceptions: What does behavior really indicate? - 7/1/2006 1:57:31 PM   
Bearlee


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From: South Central CO
Status: offline 		 
Uhhhhhhh… it was in response to your comment:

quote:

  …And they [Geishas] are and never were prostitutes or expected to perform sex of any kind(contrary to what books and films may represent).

 
 …which didn’t seem to fit anywhere that I ASKED:
 
quote:

  Who suggested Geishas are prostitutes?  Or…are you suggesting submissives are prostitutes?  I wonder if you’re suggesting, as so many do, that submissives are expected to perform sexually?

 
It was a question, honey...  I read nothing into your words.  How you discuss a topic and try to prove a point is most...unique.  Circular logic not withstanding... "Geishas are Japanese like the Cornish are British and Germany is part of Europe"?  *shakes head*

And, since we are on the topic, if anybody can label themselves submissive…why can’t they also label themselves Geisha?  You said yourself they are merely trained women (or men, if the story has it right).  There is quite a bit written regarding Caucasians who consider themselves Geisha…and are considered Geisha by other Geishas.  If they have gone through the training; why not?  Certainly it would not be up to you or me to determine if they are 'true' Geishas.
 
You said “They never were supposed to be pleasing to men, that isn't their history.” Surely you jest? 
 
Yup, I think you hit the nail on the head with “perceptions cloud reality and fact” …I think you believe your perceptions are fact; unfortunately they are merely opinions.  Perhaps it would help to look up the word 'submissive'.
 
And so we end up right back at courtesy.  It seems a shame that one cannot read a post without insinuating disagreement by another is ‘personalization’.  I was NOT second guessing you…I asked you several questions regarding what it was you were trying to say.

*edited because I still cannot spell!"

< Message edited by Bearlee -- 7/1/2006 2:01:47 PM >

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RE: Perceptions: What does behavior really indicate? - 7/1/2006 2:50:23 PM   
darkinshadows


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I just fitted it in.  It wasn't in response to anything - just a common myth that does exist which I mentioned.
 
What I offer you on a geisha, isn't perception, it is written, documented fact.  If you wish to spend some time studying japanese history, google is your friend and there are many books to recommend that will aid your journey.  There is alot of myth that surrounds geisha with media and sensationalism of film and unresearched stories.  You do not wish to accept the historical writings and prefere to just follow your own thought.  I offered you a glance at seeing the myth and understanding a little japanese culture and history.  I am sure there maybe people who are not japanese who would love to call themself a geisha.  But it would be wrong - because unlike the word 'submissive'  - the word geisha is not a label.  It is a name.  It is a birthright and if one has any acceptance for any ethnic traditions and history, its just a no discussion issue.  Theres no circular logic - it just is.
 
If you cannot and will not accept any of this information from me, then please by all means, study and discover from other sources.  Any house will be happy to assist your interest.
 
A geisha is not a maiko, neither are they a geiko.  These are specific titles.  Originally and traditionally, geishas were male.  They are entertainers, and their purpose was to pass down traditional stories, play traditonal japanese instruments, be voiced in ancient languages and voice trained.  They are trained in the art of plants and flower sculpture.  The word geisha translated means 'person of the arts'.  In japanese culture, the arts are held in high regard.   There position was and is not one of pleasure and submission, but in their art and the service they do to pass down japanese tradition.  They entertained the different casts within the community.
 
Again I apologise to the OP for digressing again.  Bearlee, if you want to continue to discuss this, just contact me off forum and I will be happy to talk, but I really don't wish to disrespect the OP further than I have by continuing to hijack his thread.
 
Peace and Rapture


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RE: Perceptions: What does behavior really indicate? - 7/1/2006 4:03:32 PM   
crouchingtigress


Posts: 4387
Joined: 3/19/2006
From: Maui
Status: offline 		ditto

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant
What do you think? When you meet a courteous submissive, do you automatically assume that here is a submissive who is a doormat? When you meet a submissive who appears to have little in the way of manners/respect, do you automatically assume that they aren't really submissive or are just playing at it?



A courteous submissive is a pleasure to be around, and I don't find good manners indicative of spinelessness.
 
A submissive lacking in manners may still be submissive, but they're also likely a pain in the fundament.
 
 


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RE: Perceptions: What does behavior really indicate? - 7/1/2006 4:45:36 PM   
Bearlee


Posts: 2311
Joined: 10/25/2004
From: South Central CO
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quote:

ORIGINAL: losttreasure

...When faced with someone who behaves courteously... irrespective of their position, status, or other identifying traits... I recognize that person as having an interest in how he or she is regarded and responded to, for whatever reason. 

Yes, I would, too.  And, I don't see this as weakness; I see it as civility.  In fact, I would say it is often the stronger one who displays such traits.

quote:

...Generally speaking, people displaying rudeness do not care about the opinions of others witnessing their behavior, or, are ignorant with regard to how they are being perceived.

Yes, I agree with you here, too.  When I see someone displaying such behavior, I assume they are not well educated.  I would say that usually when someone behaves without manners, they are like an untrained pup and just don't know better.  (dear reader, please do not confuse education with intelligence).  I often find this in the very young or the very ignored.

quote:

… courtesy is nothing more than polite behavior... polite behavior being defined as being mindful of, conforming to, or marked by good manners.  And manners, in the end, are just social deportment; the socially correct way of acting... in other words, the prevailing customs, social conduct, and norms of a specific society, period, or group.  *shrugs*    Like it or not, times change. 

Yes, times do change and there will always be rebels, huh?  And yet I think that those who find social deportment and the customs, conduct and norms of society not worth bowing to a bit boorish actually ...and like people who don't bathe...they can kinda stink.
 
I rather like polite people.  IMNSHO, I believe people can disagree and still be polite and courteous.  I enjoy people who begin thoughts in a debate with...'I view', 'I believe', 'I understand'...  Those who instead make pronouncements and declarations...well, let's just say I find them difficult.

quote:

  …  I view courtesy as being more for the benefit of the person displaying it, though that's not saying the recipient cannot be equally appreciative depending upon the motivation. 

hmmmmmm… an interesting observation.  I likes it!  Thank you, losttreasure...
 
edited to tighten up the post and to round up a stray 'J'   *shakes head*
 
 



< Message edited by Bearlee -- 7/1/2006 4:54:46 PM >

(in reply to losttreasure)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Perceptions: What does behavior really indicate? - 7/1/2006 5:12:57 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		~ fast reply ~

Just some observations:

CrappyDom - You grew your hair out, I see :)

Darkinshadows - I find it admirable that you remain courteous to those who are discourteous.  You are an example to follow.

Re: Geishas - Geishas do not necessarily choose their lot.  It is chosen for them.

Re: the OP - It is one thing to respect somebody (or not), but another to behave respectfully toward others, whether respected or not.  I was taught the latter, and try (although sometimes unsuccessfully) to always be as such.  I do not necessarily differentiate Dominant, submissive, "vanilla," etc.  People are people.  When someone behaves rudely, I categorize it as such, and consider that when dealing with that person in the future.  I may continue to be respectful to that person, but that my respect for them becomes limited, if not non-existant. 

(in reply to Bearlee)
Profile   Post #: 60
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