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RE: Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend i... - 9/10/2013 6:41:57 PM   
kalikshama


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Status: offline 		A judge will decide whether to accept the plea bargain, in which Welden agreed to spend nearly 14 years behind bars on wire fraud and tampering charges in exchange for prosecutors' dropping a murder charge.

Welden's attorney, Todd Foster of Tampa, told The Times in a phone interview that the government would not have been able to prove a murder charge because “it was a fact that was not scientifically capable of being demonstrated” that the pill definitely caused the miscarriage.

Read more: http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-florida-abortion-20130910,0,1624718.story

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RE: Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend i... - 9/10/2013 6:53:46 PM   
metamorfosis


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Status: offline 		fetal homicide laws by state:

www.ncsl.org/issues-research/health/fetal-homicide-state-laws.aspx

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RE: Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend i... - 9/10/2013 6:56:57 PM   
naughtynick81


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quote:

The test showed she was six weeks pregnant. Despite her boyfriend's reluctance, Lee planned to have the baby.

Days later, Welden told Lee that her blood tests had shown that she had an infection and needed to take amoxicillin.

But instead of the antibiotic, Welden brought her Cytotec, a drug that causes contractions.

Welden told her to take three pills a day. She trusted him.

After she took only one pill, Lee was rushed to the hospital with abdominal pain and bleeding.

She lost the baby.


He's in the clear for that particular law.

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RE: Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend i... - 9/10/2013 6:57:49 PM   
LadyPact


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Status: offline 		Would such sympathy exist for a man who wanted the kid while the woman forced the abortion?

Sure. The very day that it's the man who can carry the fetus to term.


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RE: Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend i... - 9/10/2013 7:02:55 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

Would such sympathy exist for a man who wanted the kid while the woman forced the abortion?

If the woman lied and gave the man a drug that caused abdominal cramps and bleeding bad enough to require an ER visit, I would indeed sympathize.

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RE: Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend i... - 9/10/2013 7:10:39 PM   
getoutnow


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Status: offline 		The guy is pretty stupid. Really not the brightest bunch.

He had a window of opportunity to "get rid" of the baby. Doing it days later and presenting her with pills was the wrong way of doing it.

If he had used his brains and planned the whole thing, he may have gotten away with it and wouldn't have been in his current predicament.

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RE: Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend i... - 9/10/2013 7:11:39 PM   
metamorfosis


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr
In quite a few states, the statute isn't murder until the fetus surpasses the weeks set by law for on-demand abortion.


In the following states "fetal homicide" can occur from the moment of conception:
Alabama
Arizona
Idaho
Illinois
Kansas
Kentucky
Louisiana
Mississippi
Nevada
North Carolina
Oklahoma
Pennsylvania
South Carolina
Tennessee
Utah
West Virginia
Wisconsin

In these states fetal homicide can occur from quickening (15-16 weeks) on:
Arkansas
Georgia
Florida
Michigan
Washington

In most other states, fetal homicide can occur to any "unborn child" (without specifically stating the time from conception)

< Message edited by metamorfosis -- 9/10/2013 7:12:11 PM >

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RE: Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend i... - 9/10/2013 7:19:06 PM   
metamorfosis


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Would such sympathy exist for a man who wanted the kid while the woman forced the abortion?

Sure. The very day that it's the man who can carry the fetus to term.



If you're saying men deserve no sympathy for losing a pregnancy they wanted simply because they're not the ones carrying the child, then I'd say you're proving Nick's point.

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RE: Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend i... - 9/10/2013 7:34:52 PM   
naughtynick81


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Status: offline 		metamorfosis

I know, her post made me scratch my head.

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RE: Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend i... - 9/10/2013 7:40:18 PM   
metamorfosis


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Status: offline 		Why not add something of value to this thread, or else shut up?

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RE: Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend i... - 9/10/2013 7:42:32 PM   
wittynamehere


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Status: offline 		Women being tricked into NOT having a man's baby reminds me a little bit about men who were tricked INTO having a woman's baby, via pinprick in the condom. Certainly isn't the same thing, but there are similar elements between the two situations.

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RE: Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend i... - 9/10/2013 7:44:01 PM   
naughtynick81


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quote:

Why not add something of value to this thread, or else shut up?


Are my posts invisible?

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RE: Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend i... - 9/10/2013 7:44:14 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Oneechan
there's a clear logical failure here.
if the man is guilty of murder, then all abortion must be murder.
if abortion is not murder, then this man cannot be charged with murder. maybe harm to another person, misleading them into taking a drug, but not murder.
you can't just make murder ok because a certain person is doing it, and punish another for it.


You're dead right. There is a clear logical failure here. You wrote it.

A pregnant woman, regardless of how pregnant, is in charge of her own body. Since the fetus is growing inside her body, she has guardianship and authority over it. Now, until that fetus has personhood (at which point in time all rights afforded to a human are afforded to the fetus), the fate of that fetus is up to the woman. If the woman wants the fetus aborted, she is well within her right to have that done (so long as all laws are followed). If she wants to carry the fetus to term, she has that right, too. If someone, a man, a woman, her husband, her boyfriend, the baby-daddy, her lesbian or bisexual female partners, parents, etc., take that choice away from her without her consent, that would end up being murder. The mother, because of her choice to carry the baby to term, has, essentially, shared her human rights with it.

It is up to the woman carrying the fetus.


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RE: Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend i... - 9/10/2013 7:47:39 PM   
naughtynick81


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Status: offline 		DesideriScuri

Just because the fetus is in her body, it doesn't cancel out the fact that she is ending the life of another being. Murder is murder. No matter if she does it or he does it, it is still ending the life of another being which results to the same outcome, murder or whatever you want to call it.




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RE: Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend i... - 9/10/2013 7:48:37 PM   
DaddySatyr


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From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
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quote:

ORIGINAL: metamorfosis

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr
In quite a few states, the statute isn't murder until the fetus surpasses the weeks set by law for on-demand abortion.


In the following states "fetal homicide" can occur from the moment of conception:
Alabama
Arizona
Idaho
Illinois
Kansas
Kentucky
Louisiana
Mississippi
Nevada
North Carolina
Oklahoma
Pennsylvania
South Carolina
Tennessee
Utah
West Virginia
Wisconsin

In these states fetal homicide can occur from quickening (15-16 weeks) on:
Arkansas
Georgia
Florida
Michigan
Washington

In most other states, fetal homicide can occur to any "unborn child" (without specifically stating the time from conception)


And according to your own link, 12 states and DC have no law. Does 12 states not qualify as "quite a few"? I mean, "a few" is three. So, I think 12 qualifies as "quite a few". In fact; it's four "fews". In fact; it's more than a few "fews".

< Message edited by DaddySatyr -- 9/10/2013 7:55:27 PM >

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RE: Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend i... - 9/10/2013 7:53:57 PM   
LadyPact


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quote:

ORIGINAL: metamorfosis
Sure. The very day that it's the man who can carry the fetus to term.



If you're saying men deserve no sympathy for losing a pregnancy they wanted simply because they're not the ones carrying the child, then I'd say you're proving Nick's point.

I would disagree. There is no infringement to the male's body. Therefore, they can not be constituted as the same.

In order to induce an abortion in this manner, a chemical poison had to be introduced. To date, no male who has wanted a fetus to come to term has had such a physical disturbance introduced to his person. No substance reagent to cause a physical response.

The loss of a fetus to a male exists on the mental and emotional realm. Nothing forced into his physical body against his will. The closest equivalent would be an agent introduced by an outside party that would leave him temporarily sterile.



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RE: Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend i... - 9/10/2013 7:56:53 PM   
metamorfosis


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr
And according to your own link, 12 states and DC have no law. Does 12 states not qualify as "quite a few"? I mean, "a few" is three. So, I think 12 qualifies as "quite a few". In fact, it's four "fews".


No, 12 (out of 50) is not "quite a few", but even if it were, that would only mean there were "quite a few" states that have no law regarding fetal homicide. Your claim was that quite a few states don't regard it as fetal homicide until the fetus surpasses the weeks set by law for on-demand abortion. I could find no state at all for which that was true.

< Message edited by metamorfosis -- 9/10/2013 7:59:12 PM >

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RE: Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend i... - 9/10/2013 7:57:25 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: naughtynick81
DesideriScuri
Just because the fetus is in her body, it doesn't cancel out the fact that she is ending the life of another being. Murder is murder. No matter if she does it or he does it, it is still ending the life of another being which results to the same outcome, murder or whatever you want to call it.


Not until that fetus reaches personhood and is afforded all the rights afforded to humans. That's the key part there. The reason some Republicans try to pass personhood bills making personhood start at conception is because once that fetus gains personhood, ending it's life is murder. That is an extremely important legal matter.




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What I support:

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RE: Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend i... - 9/10/2013 7:57:35 PM   
naughtynick81


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Status: offline 		LP, did you even read the article? If so, you would probably have a clear understanding of what this is actually about in regards of the sympathy double standard.

That said, are you saying men don't feel any emotion, any loss, if a fetus exist from his offspring and it gets taken away over his will? Men just apparently laugh it off, shrug it off?

Get real, lady!


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RE: Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend i... - 9/10/2013 8:13:47 PM   
DomKen


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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: naughtynick81

Domken

Firstly, pointing out anything I say is not an example of that opinion being a platform of the men's rights movement. That said, I don't even consider myself to be an MRA.

Secondly, what part of this don't you understand? Could I have said this more clearly?


quote:

I don't agree with this guy's actions, it’s a pretty sleazy thing to do


Try reading all of what I wrote.
quote:

FR
Do we need more proof of the inherently repugnant and stupid nature of the "men's rights movement"? Tricking a person into taking a drug, which could have had any number of effects, is one of the most despicable acts one person can do to another and is never justifiable or defendable and is not at all comparable to living with the consequences of consensual sex.

You did try and equate a man drugging someone without their knowledge to a man having to live up to his responsibilities for having unprotected consensual sex. You were clearly wrong and no amount of trying to walk that back will change your initial vile statement.

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