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RE: Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend i... - 9/11/2013 1:27:25 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Do we need more proof of the inherently repugnant and stupid nature of the "men's rights movement"?

I wasn't aware that tricking women into abortions was a platform of the men's rights movement. Can you direct me to your source?

http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4543074

I'm not familiar with the so-called "men's rights movement," and it isn't mentioned in either the OP or the linked story. So while I certainly do see "proof" of something here, it isn't about the "men's rights movement".

K.

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RE: Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend i... - 9/11/2013 1:38:01 AM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: naughtynick81
DesideriScuri
Just because the fetus is in her body, it doesn't cancel out the fact that she is ending the life of another being. Murder is murder. No matter if she does it or he does it, it is still ending the life of another being which results to the same outcome, murder or whatever you want to call it.


Not until that fetus reaches personhood and is afforded all the rights afforded to humans. That's the key part there. The reason some Republicans try to pass personhood bills making personhood start at conception is because once that fetus gains personhood, ending it's life is murder. That is an extremely important legal matter.




you are undermining your own case here desi, if you are claiming its NOT A PERSON, then NO MURDER BY ANYONE can be possible

see thats the DOUBLE STANDARD he is talking about, when its a WOMAN its NOT a person, when its a MAN well suddenly it IS A PERSON who as been MURDERED
ya can't have it BOTH WAYS!

you just MADE HIS POINT

Of course there is a double standard here. Succinctly put, the precise double standard is:

Women get pregnant, Men don't

When men begin to get pregnant they will enjoy all the pleasures and pains of pregnancy, and all the rights and responsibilities that derive from that fact of life.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 9/11/2013 1:51:01 AM >

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RE: Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend i... - 9/11/2013 1:53:25 AM   
naughtynick81


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Status: offline 		What tweakabelle keeps ignoring that regardless which gender kills the fetus, the outcome is the exact same, which is a human is being killed. The outcome has no difference.

So why only define it as "murder" simply because the separate being is not in a womb inside the man?

Murder is murder...if you want to call it that. If you're a woman and holding the being in your womb, it's still the exact same standard as it is if a man chooses to end the being's life in the said womb.


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RE: Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend i... - 9/11/2013 2:06:33 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		The same reason suicide is not called murder
He assaulted another person.not himself.
He caused her to spontaneously abort, causing her physical and mental harm, as well as the fetus.


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RE: Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend i... - 9/11/2013 2:24:38 AM   
naughtynick81


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quote:

The same reason suicide is not called murder


Suicide compared to the parents ending the fetus life at their will, not the fetus, are on totally different levels, miles away from each other.

quote:

He assaulted another person.not himself.


quote:

He caused her to spontaneously abort, causing her physical and mental harm, as well as the fetus


Yep, he certainly did, no disagreement there. So he should get punished for what he did to that woman. If you want to punish him ALSO for what he did to the fetus, it will be that time for you to drop all your "freedom of abortion" opinions when it's women wanting to kill the fetus.

quote:

as well as the fetus


Hehe, but would you have such compassion when the woman is doing the abortion?







< Message edited by naughtynick81 -- 9/11/2013 2:26:15 AM >

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RE: Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend i... - 9/11/2013 2:36:55 AM   
metamorfosis


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
The same reason suicide is not called murder
He assaulted another person.not himself.
He caused her to spontaneously abort, causing her physical and mental harm, as well as the fetus.


Well, actually...

www.medicaldaily.com/bei-bei-shuai-freed-murder-charges-dropped-against-indiana-woman-who-ate-rat-poison-while-pregnant

< Message edited by metamorfosis -- 9/11/2013 2:38:21 AM >

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RE: Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend i... - 9/11/2013 2:40:43 AM   
naughtynick81


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quote:

Indianapolis woman who tried to to take her own life by eating rat poisoning near the end of her pregnancy


See what part I made bold? Remember the laws? Now in the circumstance that is presented in the OP, it's just a tiny over 6 weeks in pregnancy when it all went down.

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RE: Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend i... - 9/11/2013 2:46:05 AM   
Lucylastic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: naughtynick81

quote:

The same reason suicide is not called murder


Suicide compared to the parents ending the fetus life at their will, not the fetus, are on totally different levels, miles away from each other.

quote:

He assaulted another person.not himself.


quote:

He caused her to spontaneously abort, causing her physical and mental harm, as well as the fetus


Yep, he certainly did, no disagreement there. So he should get punished for what he did to that woman. If you want to punish him ALSO for what he did to the fetus, it will be that time for you to drop all your "freedom of abortion" opinions when it's women wanting to kill the fetus.

quote:

as well as the fetus


Hehe, but would you have such compassion when the woman is doing the abortion?










please point out where I stated he should be punished for murder of the fetus????again with the straw men, bullshit, no where did I state as such.

Until viability the fetus is part of the mother, not the father. It is not an individual, it is part of her body

He took away her choice, her body not his, a separate living breathing individual, he took away her power over her own body, he caused the woman harm, because he didnt want it.
She had no choice, she suffered physically and mentally.
When you get pregnant and can know what its like to agonize over bringing a life into the world or not, you can second guess me about what compassion I can and cannot feeel.

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RE: Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend i... - 9/11/2013 2:49:27 AM   
Lucylastic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: metamorfosis

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
The same reason suicide is not called murder
He assaulted another person.not himself.
He caused her to spontaneously abort, causing her physical and mental harm, as well as the fetus.


Well, actually...

www.medicaldaily.com/bei-bei-shuai-freed-murder-charges-dropped-against-indiana-woman-who-ate-rat-poison-while-pregnant

one case, yep.... how many cases of suicide have you heard called self murder in the court, and wasnt she the one that tried to kill herself past the age of viability?ah yes
here it is right in your link

From the beginning, I have been convinced that this case was not a criminal case. It should never have been filed," Linda Pence, her attorney, told the Indianapolis Star.

Shuai, who was charged with knowingly killing a viable fetus in March 2011 and released from prison on bond in May 2012, attempted to take her own life in the 33rd week of her pregnancy after her boyfriend left her, according to a police statement.

And charges were dropped,

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RE: Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend i... - 9/11/2013 2:51:32 AM   
metamorfosis


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quote:

ORIGINAL: naughtynick81

quote:

Indianapolis woman who tried to to take her own life by eating rat poisoning near the end of her pregnancy


See what part I made bold? Remember the laws? Now in the circumstance that is presented in the OP, it's just a tiny over 6 weeks in pregnancy when it all went down.


I agree the law is unfair. But why do you assume it affects men more than women? The law could just as easily be used to charge a woman (not the pregnant one) who caused the death of a fetus.

Incidentally, this "men's not having a say in an abortion" problem was already mentioned on the thread about "men's issues". While that thread consisted merely of making a list, Tazzy intends to have a follow up discussion soon. You should consider participating.


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RE: Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend i... - 9/11/2013 2:54:09 AM   
metamorfosis


Posts: 1132
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic


quote:

ORIGINAL: metamorfosis

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
The same reason suicide is not called murder
He assaulted another person.not himself.
He caused her to spontaneously abort, causing her physical and mental harm, as well as the fetus.


Well, actually...

www.medicaldaily.com/bei-bei-shuai-freed-murder-charges-dropped-against-indiana-woman-who-ate-rat-poison-while-pregnant

one case, yep.... how many cases of suicide have you heard called self murder in the court, and wasnt she the one that tried to kill herself past the age of viability?ah yes
here it is right in your link

From the beginning, I have been convinced that this case was not a criminal case. It should never have been filed," Linda Pence, her attorney, told the Indianapolis Star.

Shuai, who was charged with knowingly killing a viable fetus in March 2011 and released from prison on bond in May 2012, attempted to take her own life in the 33rd week of her pregnancy after her boyfriend left her, according to a police statement.

And charges were dropped,


I never claimed she should, or should not have been charged with murder. I simply stated that she was.

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RE: Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend i... - 9/11/2013 2:57:27 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		I think you misread me, the only questions I asked were about the number of "self murder" charges, and if she was the lady who tried to kill herself,


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RE: Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend i... - 9/11/2013 3:17:35 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Oneechan

there's a clear logical failure here.

if the man is guilty of murder, then all abortion must be murder.

if abortion is not murder, then this man cannot be charged with murder. maybe harm to another person, misleading them into taking a drug, but not murder.

you can't just make murder ok because a certain person is doing it, and punish another for it.


I disagree. Murder is the unlawful killing. Abortion is legal.

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RE: Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend i... - 9/11/2013 3:22:03 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: naughtynick81

Should abortion be a crime? If you answer "no", that means you are flip flopping if you think this guy should be charged solely on the grounds of forcing an abortion.

This guy shouldn't be charged for forcing an abortion, he should only get a felony assault charge for drugging her.


Highlighted words say it all.

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend i... - 9/11/2013 3:24:18 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: naughtynick81

BitYakin

Unfortunately, many people prefer to skirt around this point and waffle on about the other circumstances in this scenario.




No, unfortunately you want to make this an issue over a man forcing a woman to have an abortion. The same charges can be filed againsta woman who forces another woman to have an abortion. Its not JUST a men's issue.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/05/22/two-virginia-women-charged-over-homespun-herbal-abortion/

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 9/11/2013 3:25:52 AM >

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to naughtynick81)
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RE: Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend i... - 9/11/2013 3:24:24 AM   
naughtynick81


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quote:

Highlighted words say it all.


Yep, I am guessing the same applies to a woman forcing an abortion on the fetus. No murder charge should apply, unless you want female favouring double standards.

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RE: Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend i... - 9/11/2013 3:26:29 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Read above dear nikki... and why didnt you chime in on the men's issue thread?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend i... - 9/11/2013 3:31:27 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		Maybe its because 99% of those issues given cannot be relegated to blaming just uz wimminz

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RE: Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend i... - 9/11/2013 3:56:43 AM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

I think you misread me, the only questions I asked were about the number of "self murder" charges, and if she was the lady who tried to kill herself,



I am not sure that they really bother with self murder charges anymore. I think they just stick you in a nuthouse for a while.

I think that there are things that mother's can do and end up being charged with. I thought that drugs was one of them, but Tazzy would know more than I on that.



Suicide was against the law. Johnny had wondered why. It meant that if you missed, or the gas ran out, or the rope broke, you could get locked up in prison to show you that life was really very jolly and thoroughly worth living. (Terry Pratchett)

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RE: Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend i... - 9/11/2013 4:24:51 AM   
tazzygirl


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Status: offline 		That was started, SC was one of the states that began charging women with child abuse and murder for taking drugs while pregnant and not admitting it - dont see how that changes things but for brevity we wont go into that. These were overturned due to self incrimination laws, if I remember the cases correctly.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 80
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