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RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/17/2013 7:45:55 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

I suppose the intentions of Hate Crime laws be for the better good

Just like laws against murder be for the better good...clearly they have not stopped murder just makes people feel better.



quote:

Murder is an actual crime that is based on laws for a very long time.


Yup and those self same laws excluded certian murders from prosection, as has been pointed out repeatedly.

quote:

Hate crimes are not.


That would be unsubstantiated opinion. I am sure that any lawyer or judge will validate that hate crimes are in fact crimes.

quote:

Can you show what good they have done?

Since that is not a position I have taken I would suggest ,if your interest is genuine,that you ask google.


quote:

Do they deter crime?


Do the laws against murder stop murder?

quote:

What exactly is the criminal being punished for?


For exactly the same thing as all criminals are punished for "anti social behavior"

< Message edited by thompsonx -- 9/17/2013 7:47:07 AM >

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 141
RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/17/2013 8:05:33 AM   
lovmuffin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

FR
1) Hate crimes do not limit speech. If all you do is speak you will never ever be prosecuted under any hate crime statute in the US.
2) There are many other factors used to make punishment for a crime more severe, use of a firearm for instance, so it is perfectly reasonable to increase the penalty for targeting a person for violence because of their status.

So my question is, what is the big problem? Unless you're prone to doing violence against someone purely because of their status in some group, which certainly isn't Constitutionally protected, why even worry about this?



First off I'm going to take the use of a firearm in a crime more seriously than I am the motivation for it.

The second thing is, its no *big* problem enhancing penalties for hate crimes, specifically violent ones. Some of us law and order types don't like the fact that many violent crimes can be plea bargained down to misdemeanors, the revolving door justice system, judges who give a slap on the wrist when the defendant is deserving of a harsher sentence, early parole, and all the rest of it. If a bunch of guys who don't like gays get a tougher sentence because that's the reason they beat up a gay guy, I'm fine with that. The problem is, I want that same tough sentence for a bunch of guys who beat up some other guy for whatever reason.

Just to illustrate, gay guy get his ass beat down because he's gay, spends a month in the hospital, needs plastic surgery and all the rest of it. The bashers get 10 years mandatory sentence because of a hate crime component. Your younger brother gets his ass beat down because he looked at the bashers funny like they were being disrespected or some stupid ass shit, spends a month in the hospital, needs plastic surgery and all the rest of it. The bashers get a 10 year sentence with parole hearings beginning after 5 years. They're out in 6. Does that really sound fair to you ?

_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 142
RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/17/2013 8:33:41 AM   
lovmuffin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

If you're so worried about hate crimes there are a few rules of common sense you can follow. If you're black, stay out of redneck bars. If you're gay, don't out yourself in a redneck bar. If you're white, stay out of bars where only black people go. Lastly, if you're dressed up in drag, don't go prancing down the Main Street of some dusty cow town in West Texas without packin heat.


?????? Was this intended as sarcasm. If not....

I categorically reject this type of blame the victim thinking. Just plain wrong.

Blacks, gays, drag queens are each a minority group in North America. Does this mean they should never go out in public anywhere, anytime unless they happen to be surrounded by people who are similar? So you want to create towns and cities with exclusively black neighborhoods, gay neighborhoods, drag queen neighborhoods with giant fences around them, so people will feel safe amongst their "own kind" (!!???) wtf How backwards is this thinking? Isn't this the way things were - and are we not trying to move towards a more inclusive society?? Oh right, I forgot there is a component of society that actually liked things they way they were.

I've gone to black jazz and r&b clubs before. Nothing bad has ever happened to me. I've gone to school and lived in neighborhoods that are mostly white. Nothing bad has ever happened to me. I dress provocatively as a female when I choose to do so. Nothing bad has ever happened to me. Your notion that I should just stay out of any situation where I am a minority is just plain absurd (or very bad sarcasm - and I can't figure out which).

In addition, from a legal perspective, the taking of another human being's life is categorized differently based on circumstances and intent. This is the way the law works. Intentionally killing someone is not considered the same type of crime as causing someone's death as the result of a car accident or the same as killing someone in self defense. All killings are NOT considered the same with respects to the gravity of the crime, and the associated punishment. Do you really believe in a system of law that treats all actions that result in death as absolutely equal? And once we admit that there are differences - the nuances do, actually matter.




Yes, good grief yes, it was intended as sarcasm. You really couldn't tell for sure ? Did you not notice post #133 to Winterapple ? Maybe it was my fault for not using more smiley emoticons.

One thing in your response I will speak to though. Anyone with a brain bigger than the size of a pea realizes car accidents and self defense don't rise to the level of an intentional killing. I do however have a problem with some murders that don't rise to the level of first degree or a capital crime or whatever. If a hate crime component puts a murder up to that level, I'm all for it but things like murder while being mugged or robbed, killing a sex worker because she didn't give a good enough blow job and other types of murder should rise to that level too.


_____________________________

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Unknown

"Long hair, short hair—what's the difference once the head's blowed off." - Farmer Yassir

(in reply to fucktoyprincess)
Profile   Post #: 143
RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/17/2013 9:02:57 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

But you don't think it would be kewel if their being locked up would send a msg that beating up lesbians would not be tolerated?




quote:

No, I think it would be good if it sent the message that beating up ANYONE will not be tolerated but hate crimes don't do that. They send the message that it is worse.

We have laws that send the message that beating up anyone will not be tolerated. You seem to agree,that even though it has not stopped people from being beat, it is a good law.
Hate crime laws do not make the crime of beating someone worse it simply adds another crime to the charges. We have these special laws for cops too. Do you think those are wrong also?




If the law that you can't kill anyone doesn't work, what makes you thinking adding a few more years to the charge will make a difference? All that tells people is one crime is worse than the other and it's not. The mother who lost her son to a random hit is not going to feel less pain than the one who lost her son because he was gay and she is going to want the guy responsible to pay the same price for what he did.

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Profile   Post #: 144
RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/17/2013 9:04:10 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Isn't the term "smart racist" an oxymoron???I mean if one were truley smart how could they be a racist?duuuhhh.


quote:

There are some pretty intelligent people that have been raised wrong by their parents and have some pretty messed up views. Those include racists.


"Smart people" do not do irrational things, if they do, then they by definition are not "smart people".




I think you are confusing intelligence with ignorance.

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(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 145
RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/17/2013 9:25:02 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Isn't the term "smart racist" an oxymoron???I mean if one were truley smart how could they be a racist?duuuhhh.


quote:

There are some pretty intelligent people that have been raised wrong by their parents and have some pretty messed up views. Those include racists.


"Smart people" do not do irrational things, if they do, then they by definition are not "smart people".




I think you are confusing intelligence with ignorance.

I think you are mistaken.

(in reply to thishereboi)
Profile   Post #: 146
RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/17/2013 9:32:08 AM   
thompsonx


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We have laws that send the message that beating up anyone will not be tolerated. You seem to agree,that even though it has not stopped people from being beat, it is a good law.
Hate crime laws do not make the crime of beating someone worse it simply adds another crime to the charges. We have these special laws for cops too. Do you think those are wrong also?




quote:

If the law that you can't kill anyone doesn't work, what makes you thinking adding a few more years to the charge will make a difference?


Is it your position that since the law doesn't work it should be abolished?

quote:

All that tells people is one crime is worse than the other and it's not.


Actually it tells those who can read that two crimes are worse than one.
quote:

The mother who lost her son to a random hit is not going to feel less pain than the one who lost her son because he was gay



You seem to have a pretty firm grasp of the obvious here.
quote:


and she is going to want the guy responsible to pay the same price for what he did.


Wouldn't that require you to be a mind reader

< Message edited by thompsonx -- 9/17/2013 9:33:02 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 147
RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/17/2013 11:05:45 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

We have laws that send the message that beating up anyone will not be tolerated. You seem to agree,that even though it has not stopped people from being beat, it is a good law.
Hate crime laws do not make the crime of beating someone worse it simply adds another crime to the charges. We have these special laws for cops too. Do you think those are wrong also?




quote:

If the law that you can't kill anyone doesn't work, what makes you thinking adding a few more years to the charge will make a difference?


Is it your position that since the law doesn't work it should be abolished?


I thought that was pretty clear from my posts.
quote:

All that tells people is one crime is worse than the other and it's not.

Actually it tells those who can read that two crimes are worse than one.

No it's not, it's saying you will face a stiffer penalty if they prove the motive was hate.
quote:

The mother who lost her son to a random hit is not going to feel less pain than the one who lost her son because he was gay


You seem to have a pretty firm grasp of the obvious here.
quote:


and she is going to want the guy responsible to pay the same price for what he did.


Wouldn't that require you to be a mind reader

No, it's as obvious as the comment you agreed with above. Sorry you missed that.


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Profile   Post #: 148
RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/17/2013 11:23:21 AM   
OrionTheWolf


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Sure they do. No matter who does a dumb thing, it is just a dumb thing to do. So smart people can do dumb things, they do it all the time. You want to retort my comment about "smart racist" but your latest attempt is to say that smart people do not do dumb things? Really is that your stance on this? Smart people are perfect and never do anything irrational? Really?

I am sure there have been some smart people that were able to assault or murder someone and get away with not being charged with a hate crime. I am sure there are some dumb people that let their mouths run and were charged with hate crimes, even though they do not hate that group they committed a crime against.

So again I ask how having hate crime legislation added to existing laws that punish for the actions done, is helpful?

If someone opposes hate crime legislation, how can you prove they want the days of shooting a black person and not being charged with murder, back? Is there some proof for that or just an asinine opinion? Do people just use these in debates because they cannot rational argue? Maybe it is because they do not have the capacity to understand and opposing view properly?

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Isn't the term "smart racist" an oxymoron???I mean if one were truley smart how could they be a racist?duuuhhh.


quote:

There are some pretty intelligent people that have been raised wrong by their parents and have some pretty messed up views. Those include racists.


"Smart people" do not do irrational things, if they do, then they by definition are not "smart people".




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RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/17/2013 11:29:03 AM   
OrionTheWolf


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No. Instead of more laws added to it then the justice system should make sure they are enforced. If some local government is not enforcing the laws of murder or assault because of discrimination, then the Justice Dept needs to investigate and take care of that local government so that the laws are being enforced equitably. Is that difficult to understand?

Let me try this way. If local government no do the right thing, then Feds make them do the right thing and put in jail. If they no do right thing already, more laws not make them do right thing. Is these simplified enough?

Now that does away with your "hate crimes laws are there because blacks were being shot and someone was not being charged with murder, but with improper discharge of a firearm."

Now lets see if there are anymore hysterical posts that can be shown to have no merit.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Is it your position that since the law doesn't work it should be abolished?




_____________________________

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RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/17/2013 11:32:24 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

It is already against the law to kill someone. If you get caught, you will go to jail. I would venture a guess that most people who kill don't believe they will get caught unless they are on a suicide run. So how will adding to the sentence change anything? Do you honestly think they are going to stop and think about the consequences before they take action? If that were true, there would be no crime.


Better to take some action to alleviate the problem, than none at all.

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Profile   Post #: 151
RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/17/2013 11:46:46 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

Until very recently an insult specifically was considered hate speech in British law and notions of what constitutes threatening or harassing speech is still vague.

You insulted my intelligence in your last reply... can I consider that harassing?




Care to back this up ?

I didnt insult your intelligence, I simply pointed out the flaws in your post.

(in reply to Marc2b)
Profile   Post #: 152
RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/17/2013 12:40:45 PM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

It is already against the law to kill someone. If you get caught, you will go to jail. I would venture a guess that most people who kill don't believe they will get caught unless they are on a suicide run. So how will adding to the sentence change anything? Do you honestly think they are going to stop and think about the consequences before they take action? If that were true, there would be no crime.


Better to take some action to alleviate the problem, than none at all.




Please tell me where I ever suggested that there should be no action taken.

Do you even read the posts you reply to?

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(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 153
RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/17/2013 12:41:52 PM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

Thats nonsense, at least under UK law. Hate speech laws are very specific.


So I can travel to the UK and proclaim that "Anglicans are fucktards!"?



Yes, indeed you can, an insult isnt hate speech. Just call me if you need extra help understanding the difference between the two.



Yea, that wasn't questioning his intelligence


_____________________________

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RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/17/2013 12:47:26 PM   
fucktoyprincess


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin
I do however have a problem with some murders that don't rise to the level of first degree or a capital crime or whatever. If a hate crime component puts a murder up to that level, I'm all for it but things like murder while being mugged or robbed, killing a sex worker because she didn't give a good enough blow job and other types of murder should rise to that level too.



Well the devil is in the details, of course. Let's take felony murder laws as an example (they will differ from state to state, but here, just to give you a flavor:

***

"Under the felony murder doctrine, anybody who causes a death while committing or attempting to commit a felony is guilty of murder. Whether or not they intended to cause the death is completely irrelevant. Note that when the police are in hot pursuit of the felon, even after the crime has been committed, the crime is deemed to be in progress, for the purposes of the felony murder doctrine. So, if somebody has just robbed a bank, and is running from the police, and then causes a fatal car accident, they are guilty of murder.

People have even been charged with murder when their partners in crime were justifiably killed. So, if one of the robbers is shot by a security guard while robbing a bank, his accomplices are all guilty of his murder.

This rule dates back to English common law, and it has several justifications. First, and perhaps most importantly, it is meant to discourage people from committing felonies. If a criminal knows that he might be charged with murder if he accidentally causes a death during a robbery, he is going to think twice before robbing someone, or so the reasoning goes.

Some states have tried to mitigate the harsh effects that this rule has. For example, in California, felony murder can only serve as a gateway to a first-degree murder charge when the death results from a felony that is specifically listed in the murder statute. On the list are the crimes generally considered to be the most heinous, such as rape, armed robbery, and arson.

If a death occurs during the commission of any other felony, the defendant is, at most, guilty of second-degree murder, and only if the felony is considered to be inherently dangerous.


Article Source: http://EzineArticles.com/1580455"

***

In other words, all sorts of situations can give rise to the equivalent of a first degree murder charge depending on the circumstances. Again, the difference between a motor vehicle accident that is manslaughter and a motor vehicle accident that is first degree murder IS IN THE DETAILS. This is the point I was trying to make.

And given that this is the way that the law approaches killing and it's various legal definitions, there is a wide variation in how different types of killing are handled. Your simple approach of "other types of murder should rise to that level too" makes NO sense. "Murder" has a specific meaning under the law, and it depends on what state of the U.S. you are in. And not all killings are treated as "murder". And "murders" are generally subdivided into at least two categories in most states; in some states three.

You seem to be operating under the impression that there is only one definition. Adding the hate crimes nuance to killing is only ONE nuance within statutes that deal with killing - there are already NUMEROUS things that are considered, and YES THE OUTCOMES WILL DIFFER DEPENDING ON THE SPECIFIC FACTS AT HAND. Nothing is categorical the way you are suggesting.


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Profile   Post #: 155
RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/17/2013 1:21:48 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

Care to back this up ?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech_laws_in_the_United_Kingdom

Excerpt (emphasis mine):

Statutes

In England, Wales, and Scotland, the Public Order Act 1986 prohibits, by its Part 3, expressions of racial hatred, which is defined as hatred against a group of persons by reason of the group's colour, race, nationality (including citizenship) or ethnic or national origins. Section 18 of the Act says:

A person who uses threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or displays any written material which is threatening, abusive or insulting, is guilty of an offence if—

(a) he intends thereby to stir up racial hatred, or
(b) having regard to all the circumstances racial hatred is likely to be stirred up thereby.

Offences under Part 3 carry a maximum sentence of seven years imprisonment or a fine or both.[6]

The Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 inserted Section 4A into the Public Order Act 1986. That part prohibits anyone from causing alarm or distress. Section 4A states:

(1) A person is guilty of an offence if, with intent to cause a person harassment, alarm or distress, he—

(a) uses threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or disorderly behaviour, or
(b) displays any writing, sign or other visible representation which is threatening, abusive or insulting, thereby causing that or another person harassment, alarm or distress.

A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable on summary conviction to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months or to a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale or to both.[7]

The Racial and Religious Hatred Act 2006 amended the Public Order Act 1986 by adding Part 3A. That Part says, "A person who uses threatening words or behaviour, or displays any written material which is threatening, is guilty of an offence if he intends thereby to stir up religious hatred." The Part protects freedom of expression by stating in Section 29J:

Nothing in this Part shall be read or given effect in a way which prohibits or restricts discussion, criticism or expressions of antipathy, dislike, ridicule, insult or abuse of particular religions or the beliefs or practices of their adherents, or of any other belief system or the beliefs or practices of its adherents, or proselytising or urging adherents of a different religion or belief system to cease practising their religion or belief system.

The Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008 amended Part 3A of the Public Order Act 1986. The amended Part 3A adds, for England and Wales, the offence of inciting hatred on the ground of sexual orientation. All the offences in Part 3 attach to the following acts: the use of words or behaviour or display of written material, publishing or distributing written material, the public performance of a play, distributing, showing or playing a recording, broadcasting or including a programme in a programme service, and possession of inflammatory material. In the circumstances of hatred based on religious belief or on sexual orientation, the relevant act (namely, words, behaviour, written material, or recordings, or programme) must be threatening and not just abusive or insulting.[8]

The Football Offences Act 1991 (amended by the Football (Offences and Disorder) Act 1999) forbids indecent or racialist chanting at designated football matches.[9]

Reform Section 5 campaign

In 2012 a campaign was launched by The Christian Institute to remove the word "insulting" from section 5 of the Public Order Act. The campaign was backed by a number of high profile activists including comedian Rowan Atkinson and former shadow home secretary David Davis. On the 12th of December 2012 the House of Lords voted in favor of amending the Public Order Act to remove the word "insulting". In January 2013 the government announced that it would not appeal the Lords decision to the House of Commons, despite having previously opposed it.


quote:

I didnt insult your intelligence, I simply pointed out the flaws in your post.


Oh yes you most certainly did when you suggested that I need help in understanding the difference between an insult and hate speech. It made me feel harassed, alarmed and distressed.

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RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/17/2013 1:28:22 PM   
Kirata


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I am alarmed and distressed by this law.

K.

(in reply to Marc2b)
Profile   Post #: 157
RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/17/2013 2:01:29 PM   
lovmuffin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess


In other words, all sorts of situations can give rise to the equivalent of a first degree murder charge depending on the circumstances. Again, the difference between a motor vehicle accident that is manslaughter and a motor vehicle accident that is first degree murder IS IN THE DETAILS. This is the point I was trying to make.

And given that this is the way that the law approaches killing and it's various legal definitions, there is a wide variation in how different types of killing are handled. Your simple approach of "other types of murder should rise to that level too" makes NO sense. "Murder" has a specific meaning under the law, and it depends on what state of the U.S. you are in. And not all killings are treated as "murder". And "murders" are generally subdivided into at least two categories in most states; in some states three.

You seem to be operating under the impression that there is only one definition. Adding the hate crimes nuance to killing is only ONE nuance within statutes that deal with killing - there are already NUMEROUS things that are considered, and YES THE OUTCOMES WILL DIFFER DEPENDING ON THE SPECIFIC FACTS AT HAND. Nothing is categorical the way you are suggesting.



Yes, I get that different things factor into what might make the level of murder rise. Laws that differ from state to state, judges who differ from court to court and any number things can effect the charges and penalties on murder including plea bargains and early parole. There are just too many factors to cover them all specifically. I get it.

So let me illustrate once more why I have a problem with hate crime laws.

"gay guy get his ass beat down because he's gay, spends a month in the hospital, needs plastic surgery and all the rest of it. The bashers get 10 years mandatory sentence because of a hate crime component. Your straight younger brother (same age as the gay guy) gets his ass beat down because he looked at the bashers funny like they were being disrespected or some such stupid ass shit, spends a month in the hospital, needs plastic surgery and all the rest of it. The bashers get a 10 year sentence with parole hearings beginning after 5 years. They're out in 6. Does that really sound fair to you ?"

Sorry, I got lazy and did a copy and paste job from my previous post but its the point I'm trying to make.



_____________________________

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Unknown

"Long hair, short hair—what's the difference once the head's blowed off." - Farmer Yassir

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Profile   Post #: 158
RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/17/2013 2:15:01 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

"gay guy get his ass beat down because he's gay, spends a month in the hospital, needs plastic surgery and all the rest of it. The bashers get 10 years mandatory sentence because of a hate crime component. Your straight younger brother (same age as the gay guy) gets his ass beat down because he looked at the bashers funny like they were being disrespected or some such stupid ass shit, spends a month in the hospital, needs plastic surgery and all the rest of it. The bashers get a 10 year sentence with parole hearings beginning after 5 years. They're out in 6. Does that really sound fair to you ?"


Apple and orange compared, there, LM. One's a family member, the other is not. No jail sentence is ever long enough for those who've committed heinous crimes on a member of one's own family.

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(in reply to lovmuffin)
Profile   Post #: 159
RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/17/2013 2:58:27 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
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~FR~

My other issue is also with creating special classes of people that are protected more than others. I disagree with it on any scale, with the exceptions of minors as we are supposed to protect them more. If murder and assault laws were not being enforced, then the Justice Dept should come down hard (criminal charges and/or removal from office) on those that are supposed to apply the laws equitably, rather than create hate legislation.





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When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 160
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