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MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/15/2013 2:59:33 PM   
Aylee


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Status: offline 		Interesting article. It appears that the Matthew Shepard story that we all knew and has been used as a rallying point is rather false.

I am not a supporter of hate crime legislation, but ultimately what do you think this revelation will do in regards to homosexual/bisexual/trans acceptance? Nothing? Harm it?

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/09/14/The-Matthew-Shepard-Story-is-a-Lie

quote:

“How do people sold on one version of history react to being told that the facts are slippery --- that thinking of Shepard’s murder as a hate crime does not mean it was a hate crime? And how does it color our understanding of such a crime if the perpetrator and victim not only knew each other but also had sex together, bought drugs from one another, and partied together?”




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RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/15/2013 3:13:15 PM   
jlf1961


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Status: offline 		If you have a problem with breitbart as a source, look here

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RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/15/2013 3:13:28 PM   
DomKen


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Status: offline 		I'll have to read the book but some of the things claimed in the lyingscum.com article I knew back when the murder happened. Shepard knew at least one of his murderers and that same guy was high on meth at the time of the murder.

If the motivation was not hatred of homosexuals the killers chose the rather stupid "gay panic" defense which strikes me as rather odd.

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RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/15/2013 3:17:15 PM   
Phydeaux


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Status: offline 		hate crime legislation is an abomination.

The jury has a hard enough time deciding a crime based on actions - and now they're supposed to ferret out 'thought crimes'.

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RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/15/2013 3:23:36 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

hate crime legislation is an abomination.

The jury has a hard enough time deciding a crime based on actions - and now they're supposed to ferret out 'thought crimes'.

I know of nowhere that a hate crime can be based solely on what the criminal thinks about someone. Hate crimes require some overt statement during the crime or evidence that the victim was targeted simply because of his status.

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RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/15/2013 3:53:45 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

hate crime legislation is an abomination.

The jury has a hard enough time deciding a crime based on actions - and now they're supposed to ferret out 'thought crimes'.

I know of nowhere that a hate crime can be based solely on what the criminal thinks about someone. Hate crimes require some overt statement during the crime or evidence that the victim was targeted simply because of his status.



Exactly Ken...... It is the same in the UK, whatever the colour, religion or sexuality of any of those involved.

How any civilised people can call hate crime laws an abomination, obviously havent been affected by them.

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RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/15/2013 4:05:59 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
How any civilised people can call hate crime laws an abomination, obviously havent been affected by them.

The people opposed to hate crime legislation are generally ones who want to continue spreading hate of one group or another. So calling those people civilized is a bit of a stretch.

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RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/15/2013 4:07:41 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

hate crime legislation is an abomination.


Only to those who long for the good ol days when one could shoot a black man in the back and be charged with "discharging a firearm with in the city limit"

quote:

The jury has a hard enough time deciding a crime based on actions - and now they're supposed to ferret out 'thought crimes'.

what the fuck is a "thought crime"?

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RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/15/2013 4:34:26 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

what the fuck is a "thought crime"?


There's also something in the US called the 'Sexual Left', according to Aylee's link. What's that? Do you need a hammer and sickle tattooed on your whanger to get involved? Why haven't we got a Sexual Left in the UK? I want one.

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RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/15/2013 5:23:41 PM   
lovmuffin


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Status: offline 		I don't have a problem with calling hate crimes hate crimes for the purpose of compiling statistics or for a prosecutor to show motive and such. But to legislate into effect enhanced penalties for these types of crimes is absurd. What's the difference if a white guy kills a black guy in the heat of the moment because he hates black guys or he kills a black guy for the $50 in his wallet ? Same thing with the idiot who shot that young black boy in Texas. If its proven that he did it, why would we want to make his punishment less severe if his motive was anything other than hate for blacks ? Hang the fucker by his ball regardless of his motive.

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RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/15/2013 6:01:36 PM   
fucktoyprincess


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Status: offline 		Well, the defendants did try to avail themselves of the "gay panic" defense because they thought they would get a lighter sentence - in other words their defense rested on a belief that judge/jurors/public opinion would be homophobic enough to respond to this tactic. So perhaps, in a weird way, it is still a homophobic incident. The defendants and their lawyers guessed incorrectly about the level of homophobia in the general public. It should not be a defense to such a brutal homicide to say "oh, I didn't want to be hit on by a gay guy" and assume that the public will feel like a vicious homicide is somehow justified. Shepard's homosexuality still seems to be a factor in how the whole trial played out - even if it was not the actual motivation for the murder. Because of the defense that the defendants and their lawyer chose to use, the overall trial ends up, still, being about how homosexuality is viewed by our society. I feel the overall incident still stands for the overarching concept of acceptability of homosexuality.

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RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/15/2013 6:07:28 PM   
vincentML


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Status: offline 		There seems to be nothing in the ABC News story that supports the notions that the victim and the killer had been lovers nor that the crime was anything more than felony murder committed during the course of a robbery in a meth rage. If those were the facts there is much to wonder about how the Shepard killing was blown up into a 'hate crime.' Not surprised. We saw a similar process evolve in the Zimmerman case. So, how much stock can we put in the assertions made by Jimenez in his book? More importantly, we ought to think skeptically the next time we are confronted with a media crusade. Well, everytime actually.

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RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/15/2013 6:28:44 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

Well, the defendants did try to avail themselves of the "gay panic" defense because they thought they would get a lighter sentence - in other words their defense rested on a belief that judge/jurors/public opinion would be homophobic enough to respond to this tactic. So perhaps, in a weird way, it is still a homophobic incident. The defendants and their lawyers guessed incorrectly about the level of homophobia in the general public. It should not be a defense to such a brutal homicide to say "oh, I didn't want to be hit on by a gay guy" and assume that the public will feel like a vicious homicide is somehow justified. Shepard's homosexuality still seems to be a factor in how the whole trial played out - even if it was not the actual motivation for the murder. Because of the defense that the defendants and their lawyer chose to use, the overall trial ends up, still, being about how homosexuality is viewed by our society. I feel the overall incident still stands for the overarching concept of acceptability of homosexuality.


Very good point, FTP. Something that could provoke debate.

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RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/15/2013 7:12:58 PM   
slavekate80


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Status: offline 		There's plenty of precedent in American law, and I imagine many other places, for the motive of a crime to matter when it comes to what the person is charged with. In the case of murder, motive and whether or not there was planning ahead of time are the usual determinating factors in whether the crime was first-degree murder, second-degree murder, or voluntary manslaughter. There's some variance by jurisdiction, but that's the general situation.

I'm not sure why a crime based on bias only counts if it's against one of a few specific groups, though. Attacking someone because you hate his/her career doesn't seem fundamentally different from an attack because you hate his/her religion, but the first case wouldn't typically be classified as a hate crime.

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RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/15/2013 7:28:36 PM   
kalikshama


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quote:

If you have a problem with breitbart as a source, look here


Thanks Jeff. I noticed the ABC story is almost 9 years older than the Breibart one. I also found noteworthy:

ABC: New Details Emerge in Matthew Shepard Murder

... Displaying a strong aversion to homosexual sex was a tactic McKinney tried at his trial. His lawyers developed a so-called "gay panic defense," claiming homosexual abuse McKinney suffered as a child caused him to overreact to a sexual advance by Shepard and triggered the violent attack.

Hoping a Wyoming jury would be sympathetic to gay panic did not pay off. McKinney was found guilty and wound up with two life sentences, assuring he'll spend the rest of his life in prison, the same sentence received by his accomplice Russell Henderson.

Breibart: No H8? -- Bombshell Book: Matthew Shepard Tortured, Murdered by Gay Lover

...Thanks to a new book by an award winning gay journalist we now know that much of this narrative turns out to be false, little more than gay hagiography.

...The agenda of the sexual left lives on lies. As we all know now, the back-story that brought us Roe v. Wade was a lie. And here we find the Matthew Shepard story was also a lie.

< Message edited by kalikshama -- 9/15/2013 7:30:14 PM >

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RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/15/2013 8:06:40 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

The agenda of the sexual left lives on lies. As we all know now, the back-story that brought us Roe v. Wade was a lie. And here we find the Matthew Shepard story was also a lie.

That sentence caught my eye too. The Breitbart piece pulses with antigay hatred.

I don't know enough to comment on the book. My quick reading about it, though, raises one question: If the crux of the work is that the killers lied about their "gay panic," why are we now taking them as trustworthy sources?

< Message edited by dcnovice -- 9/15/2013 8:23:52 PM >

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RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/15/2013 8:24:28 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

I don't have a problem with calling hate crimes hate crimes for the purpose of compiling statistics or for a prosecutor to show motive and such. But to legislate into effect enhanced penalties for these types of crimes is absurd. What's the difference if a white guy kills a black guy in the heat of the moment because he hates black guys or he kills a black guy for the $50 in his wallet ? Same thing with the idiot who shot that young black boy in Texas. If its proven that he did it, why would we want to make his punishment less severe if his motive was anything other than hate for blacks ? Hang the fucker by his ball regardless of his motive.

What about the numerous gay bashings over the last decades. Should those bigots get a normal sentence for felony assault and battery for hunting down and attacking gay men? Or might it be wise to enhance their sentence to show society will not tolerate such hate crimes?

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RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/15/2013 8:31:16 PM   
popeye1250


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Status: offline 		Matthew Sheppard,....movie star?

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RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/15/2013 8:34:12 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

How any civilised people can call hate crime laws an abomination, obviously havent been affected by them.




It's a free speech thing. Based on our prior conversations on the subject, Polite, I don't see any point trying to elaborate. People treasure it, or they don't.

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RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/15/2013 8:42:57 PM   
lovmuffin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

I don't have a problem with calling hate crimes hate crimes for the purpose of compiling statistics or for a prosecutor to show motive and such. But to legislate into effect enhanced penalties for these types of crimes is absurd. What's the difference if a white guy kills a black guy in the heat of the moment because he hates black guys or he kills a black guy for the $50 in his wallet ? Same thing with the idiot who shot that young black boy in Texas. If its proven that he did it, why would we want to make his punishment less severe if his motive was anything other than hate for blacks ? Hang the fucker by his ball regardless of his motive.

What about the numerous gay bashings over the last decades. Should those bigots get a normal sentence for felony assault and battery for hunting down and attacking gay men? Or might it be wise to enhance their sentence to show society will not tolerate such hate crimes?


Society shouldn't tolerate any of it. Especially if someone, whoever for whatever reason is hunted down and attacked, beaten or killed. Why is it so much worse one way or the other if a guy hunts down and beats up your straight brother or the guy hunts down and beats up your gay brother ?

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