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RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/16/2013 5:52:55 PM   
slavekate80


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Boi.... You are right, if you were a victim it probably wouldnt make much difference what the motive was. The point about hate crime laws though is this. Its to make it safe for anyone, whatever their race religion or sexuality, not to live in fear.

Look at it another way. Sadly it pertains to life in many towns and cities these days.

If you go out, you have a chance of being robbed.
If you are gay, you have the added chance of being beaten for that.
I strongly believe we should all stand up against hate crimes, from whatever direction they come. If that means making them illegal acts, so be it.




This makes some sense. But does adding extra hate-crime penalties on top of whatever other penalty the perp would get anyway upon conviction actually reduce those crimes? If it does, then special sentencing is likely merited. If it doesn't, then it's little more than revenge.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 101
RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/16/2013 5:59:22 PM   
lovmuffin


Posts: 3759
Joined: 9/28/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

I agree completely with that sentiment though I don't know how I baffled you. It's just that what has been stated here by you I think and others is for equally violent crimes, the ones with hate components should be penalized more severely. I'm not talking about crimes that include terror or inciting a riot and such. But I'm saying that if someone murders my sister to get her purse or someone else murders a black guy on a whim because he hates black guys, neither of them should ever be allowed in polite society ever again. To assign a lesser penalty to one or the other or to say one crime is worse than the other defies logic.




What baffles me is people refuse to see what goes on around them on a daily basis.



I guess I'm not sure what you're saying here. What is it going on around you on a daily basis ? Is it something particular to the UK ? Honest, I wouldn't refuse to see it if I only knew what I was looking for.


_____________________________

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Unknown

"Long hair, short hair—what's the difference once the head's blowed off." - Farmer Yassir

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 102
RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/16/2013 6:47:39 PM   
lovmuffin


Posts: 3759
Joined: 9/28/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

As a lesbian I would just like to say if I get beaten to death one night I am probably not going to care why they are doing it. I will just wish that hadn't. I also wouldn't like to think that their sentence will be dependent on the motive. Lock the fuckers up and don't let them hurt anyone else.

As you wish.

I'd prefer not to have the horror of my death compounded by the murder's striking fear into the hearts of countless other LGBT folk.



My other than straight white male persona happens to fall into one of the categories mentioned on this thread having the potential to be targeted for a hate crime. I pretty much see it just like boi does. Getting your ass beat for whatever reason sucks. I doubt if any particular law penalizing motives really has much effect deterring some ass from doing hateful shit to certain types of people. What we need to do is strike fear in the hearts of those who would perpetrate such crimes. If you find yourself being hunted down by a bunch of gay bashers, just shoot them.


If you're so worried about hate crimes there are a few rules of common sense you can follow. If you're black, stay out of redneck bars. If you're gay, don't out yourself in a redneck bar. If you're white, stay out of bars where only black people go. Lastly, if you're dressed up in drag, don't go prancing down the Main Street of some dusty cow town in West Texas without packin heat.

_____________________________

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Unknown

"Long hair, short hair—what's the difference once the head's blowed off." - Farmer Yassir

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 103
RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/16/2013 6:53:43 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
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quote:

If you're so worried about hate crimes there are a few rules of common sense you can follow. If you're black, stay out of redneck bars. If you're gay, don't out yourself in a redneck bar. If you're white, stay out of bars where only black people go. Lastly, if you're dressed up in drag, don't go prancing down the Main Street of some dusty cow town in West Texas without packin heat.

You forgot "If you're a woman, don't wear provocative clothing."

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to lovmuffin)
Profile   Post #: 104
RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/16/2013 7:09:46 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin
quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

To disabuse yourself of your stated ignorance perhaps you might puruse the case of tom metzger.

Maybe you could disabuse yourself of saying "disabuse" and explain where I went wrong with my logic.

Yeah really. I wouldn't even know how to "puruse" something.

K.

This is beneath you...But as I have said before when one runs out of the ability to cogently disagree with someone they invariably point out spelling errors. I intentionally put these spelling errors in so that morons without the ability to think have somehing to respond to.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 105
RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/16/2013 7:09:57 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
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quote:

just shoot them

quote:

packin heat

At last: a solution to all our social ills!

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to lovmuffin)
Profile   Post #: 106
RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/16/2013 7:15:15 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

Other than to show motive or compile statistics or studies who cares why someone does the crime. The penalty should be the same if you beat someone to death for hate or for the $50 in there wallet.

See what you've done ? I'm repeating myself


You are baffling me, and not in a good way. Hate is hate is hate, and needs to be stamped out.



I agree completely with that sentiment though I don't know how I baffled you. It's just that what has been stated here by you I think and others is for equally violent crimes, the ones with hate components should be penalized more severely. I'm not talking about crimes that include terror or inciting a riot and such. But I'm saying that if someone murders my sister to get her purse or someone else murders a black guy on a whim because he hates black guys, neither of them should ever be allowed in polite society ever again. To assign a lesser penalty to one or the other or to say one crime is worse than the other defies logic.


Yet you specifically exempted terror and riot Why? Is it because terror is what we are actually talking about here. Two crimes not one. One the crime of murder and two the crime of terror against a whole group. Suppose someone started shooting white people who looked like you and left notes saying that all white people who look like you are going to keep on being shot. Is that not a crime?

(in reply to lovmuffin)
Profile   Post #: 107
RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/16/2013 7:16:34 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

But I'm saying that if someone murders my sister to get her purse or someone else murders a black guy on a whim becomes he hates black guys, neither of them should ever be allowed in polite society ever again. To assign a lesser penalty to one or the other or to say one crime is worse than the other defies logic.



Obviously, to some people, there are people that are more deserving of life than others.

If someone kills a black person or a lesbian or an illegal immigrant, that's a travesty but, if someone kills an old white guy, it should be frowned upon.

That sounds like the argument for affirmative action, actually.

Actually that sounds like someone with the reasoning ability of a stone.

(in reply to DaddySatyr)
Profile   Post #: 108
RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/16/2013 7:17:52 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin
quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

To disabuse yourself of your stated ignorance perhaps you might puruse the case of tom metzger.

Maybe you could disabuse yourself of saying "disabuse" and explain where I went wrong with my logic.

Yeah really. I wouldn't even know how to "puruse" something.

K.


It's easy. Just grab a big ole magnifying glass, put on you Sherlock hat and take off fast. At that point you're in puruse. LMAO


I have said before when one runs out of the ability to cogently disagree with someone they invariably point out spelling errors. I intentionally put these spelling errors in so that morons without the ability to think have somehing to respond to.

(in reply to lovmuffin)
Profile   Post #: 109
RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/16/2013 7:26:03 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Shows your fucking ignorance in your post.


Only to those who long for the good ol days when one could shoot a black man in the back and be charged with "discharging a firearm with in the city limit"





quote:

You do not know me, my bi-racial son, where I was raised, who raised me or anything else. Comments like below could very well be a form of dumbassery.

Who you claim to be and what you claim your son to be is hardly relevant.
The only thing I see as "dumbassery" is the personal attack in this post.

The attack was on the comments, not on you. I don't know you, I only know your posts and the ignorance of some of those comments.

quote:

If you are ignorant of someone, try not making foolish comments about them.


I post in response to what is posted.

quote:



Then you use telepathy to determine other peoples intent and motive? You plainly state what you are sure they are. If you don't have telepathy then the post is just so much dumbassery.

I have claimed no powers of telepathy


quote:

So is it a hate crime if I punch someone in the mouth when they say something retarded, and then actually call them a retard when I do it?

No! that would be a childish display of ones inability to communicate effectively. Putting ones hands on another is prima facia evidence that the attacker is not smart enough to talk to the attacked.
If the attacked were armed the attacker would be one dead punk ass motherfucker.
If you cannot disagree without being disagreeable perhaps the block function would be useful.


quote:

So it wouldn't matter what they said, just that they did the action? That is what I am reading above.

That is not what I posted so your assessment of my post is less than accurate.

quote:

Then we agree that it is the action that is the issue and not what they say or think.


If that is the point you would like to argue then perhaps you should create a thread about that. That is not what this thread is about. For you to conflate the two is disingenuous.

quote:

Don't need to use the block feature when you give a good example of what I have been saying. I appreciate the support. :)


Telling everyone how big your penis is convinces no one but the speaker.

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 110
RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/16/2013 7:33:27 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi




Translation: You disagree with me so you must be a racist.


Isn't that one getting a bit old yet


If you think so then perhaps you should quit using that tired useless bit of shit.

(in reply to thishereboi)
Profile   Post #: 111
RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/16/2013 7:36:54 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi


quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

The problem is, DCN, my sense is that it's very, very difficult to convey what it feels like to have those feelings that members already-vulnerable groups get when one of their number has some hate-crime perpetrated on them.

Too true.

It hasn't escaped my notice that most of the posts in this thread appear to come from straight white men.


As a lesbian I would just like to say if I get beaten to death one night I am probably not going to care why they are doing it. I will just wish that hadn't. I also wouldn't like to think that their sentence will be dependent on the motive. Lock the fuckers up and don't let them hurt anyone else.

But you don't think it would be kewel if their being locked up would send a msg that beating up lesbians would not be tolerated?

(in reply to thishereboi)
Profile   Post #: 112
RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/16/2013 8:20:54 PM   
lovmuffin


Posts: 3759
Joined: 9/28/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

If you're so worried about hate crimes there are a few rules of common sense you can follow. If you're black, stay out of redneck bars. If you're gay, don't out yourself in a redneck bar. If you're white, stay out of bars where only black people go. Lastly, if you're dressed up in drag, don't go prancing down the Main Street of some dusty cow town in West Texas without packin heat.

You forgot "If you're a woman, don't wear provocative clothing."


Good point. Maybe we should enhance the penalties for rapists who rape because of their victims provocative clothes. Women wearing low cut tops would feel much safer.

_____________________________

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Unknown

"Long hair, short hair—what's the difference once the head's blowed off." - Farmer Yassir

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 113
RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/16/2013 8:25:59 PM   
lovmuffin


Posts: 3759
Joined: 9/28/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

just shoot them

quote:

packin heat

At last: a solution to all our social ills!


Certainly not all social ills but definitely one solution that might keep your ass from getting beat.

_____________________________

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Unknown

"Long hair, short hair—what's the difference once the head's blowed off." - Farmer Yassir

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 114
RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/16/2013 8:32:53 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		You really must learn to use the quote boxes if you want your posts understood when you quote so much from before. If nothing else cut and paste out what you want to reply to and put the other persons words in a different color. It at least can be followed then.

What I always come away from this topic is "If someone were a smart racist, or had a bias against someone and wanted to murder them, just make sure to keep your mouth shut and don't have any proof that links you to the hate crime."

So how many crimes were hate crimes that were never convicted, and how many were not hate crimes that were just murders? Dead is dead and whatever witch hunt makes society feel better, it is still a witch hunt followed by a drum trial. I suppose the intentions of Hate Crime laws be for the better good just makes people feel better. Hate crime legislation, just like anti-racist legislation just makes the scumbags hide it better. Only better education and eliminating ignorance will actual do anything.

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 115
RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/16/2013 8:38:42 PM   
lovmuffin


Posts: 3759
Joined: 9/28/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin
quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

To disabuse yourself of your stated ignorance perhaps you might puruse the case of tom metzger.

Maybe you could disabuse yourself of saying "disabuse" and explain where I went wrong with my logic.

Yeah really. I wouldn't even know how to "puruse" something.

K.


It's easy. Just grab a big ole magnifying glass, put on you Sherlock hat and take off fast. At that point you're in puruse. LMAO


I have said before when one runs out of the ability to cogently disagree with someone they invariably point out spelling errors. I intentionally put these spelling errors in so that morons without the ability to think have somehing to respond to.


Sure you do dear, doesn't everyone do that ?

_____________________________

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Unknown

"Long hair, short hair—what's the difference once the head's blowed off." - Farmer Yassir

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 116
RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/16/2013 9:03:14 PM   
Winterapple


Posts: 1343
Joined: 8/19/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin


quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

As a lesbian I would just like to say if I get beaten to death one night I am probably not going to care why they are doing it. I will just wish that hadn't. I also wouldn't like to think that their sentence will be dependent on the motive. Lock the fuckers up and don't let them hurt anyone else.

As you wish.

I'd prefer not to have the horror of my death compounded by the murder's striking fear into the hearts of countless other LGBT folk.



My other than straight white male persona happens to fall into one of the categories mentioned on this thread having the potential to be targeted for a hate crime. I pretty much see it just like boi does. Getting your ass beat for whatever reason sucks. I doubt if any particular law penalizing motives really has much effect deterring some ass from doing hateful shit to certain types of people. What we need to do is strike fear in the hearts of those who would perpetrate such crimes. If you find yourself being hunted down by a bunch of gay bashers, just shoot them.


If you're so worried about hate crimes there are a few rules of common sense you can follow. If you're black, stay out of redneck bars. If you're gay, don't out yourself in a redneck bar. If you're white, stay out of bars where only black people go. Lastly, if you're dressed up in drag, don't go prancing down the Main Street of some dusty cow town in West Texas without packin heat.


I believe the two cretins that murdered James Byrd took
him from his business place not a redneck bar.
They purposefully searched out a black man to murder.
It wasn't a robbery. It was a racially motivated murder.
James Byrd was killed because he was black.

My uncle who is gay was brutally beaten by some
gay bashing thugs. He was hospitalized because of
his injuries.

I'm really to astonished at what you've written in this
post to say anything other than are you fucking serious?


_____________________________

A thousand dreams within me softly burn.
Rimbaud




(in reply to lovmuffin)
Profile   Post #: 117
RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/16/2013 9:10:07 PM   
njlauren


Posts: 1577
Joined: 10/1/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

You really must learn to use the quote boxes if you want your posts understood when you quote so much from before. If nothing else cut and paste out what you want to reply to and put the other persons words in a different color. It at least can be followed then.

What I always come away from this topic is "If someone were a smart racist, or had a bias against someone and wanted to murder them, just make sure to keep your mouth shut and don't have any proof that links you to the hate crime."

So how many crimes were hate crimes that were never convicted, and how many were not hate crimes that were just murders? Dead is dead and whatever witch hunt makes society feel better, it is still a witch hunt followed by a drum trial. I suppose the intentions of Hate Crime laws be for the better good just makes people feel better. Hate crime legislation, just like anti-racist legislation just makes the scumbags hide it better. Only better education and eliminating ignorance will actual do anything.


While there is truth to what you are saying, it also makes it a lot harder for people to go out and commit such crimes of hate. Down in boll weevil land, before federal civil rights legislation was passed that allowed federal prosecution of klansman and such, they knew they could terrorize and kill blacks or civil rights protesters and not face prosecution because the good ole boys in law enforcement would never charge them,by having federal law involved federal law enforcement could step in. With hate crimes laws on a state of federal level, they can make sure law enforcement can't shrug off crimes againt unpopular people, as often happens with crimes against gays, judges will routinely knock down sentences against those who committed acts of violence against LGBT people, arguing gay panic defenses and the like, or basically implying it was the victims fault, it happens a lot. Hate crimes has fixed penalties that take that kind of discretion away from judges and juries, you can't give a misdemeanor slap on the wrist to someone if hate crimes laws are invoked.

One of the reasons for hate crimes laws is symbolic, which is why some are opposed to them, it is to set a line in the sand and say that there are things as a society we won't stand for. Some opponents oppose hate crime laws that cover gays because they claim it is the government "supporting sin', it is the same reason they fight against laws protecting lGBT people from job discrimination, discrimination in housing, and so forth, because that 'endorses sin'....some are opposed, saying that crime is crime, and they genuinely believe that, and while I disagree, they aren't necessarily homophobic or racist , either......to be truthful, I wish we didn't need them, but I have seen what the law often does with people who are different, and it is something most people on this board probably haven't faced. It is very easy as a white male or even a white woman to assume the law is fair and so forth, because they haven't run into this, it is something I never understood growing up, until I went on my (aborted) journey and saw it through different eyes.

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 118
RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/16/2013 9:13:07 PM   
njlauren


Posts: 1577
Joined: 10/1/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Winterapple


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin


quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

As a lesbian I would just like to say if I get beaten to death one night I am probably not going to care why they are doing it. I will just wish that hadn't. I also wouldn't like to think that their sentence will be dependent on the motive. Lock the fuckers up and don't let them hurt anyone else.

As you wish.

I'd prefer not to have the horror of my death compounded by the murder's striking fear into the hearts of countless other LGBT folk.



My other than straight white male persona happens to fall into one of the categories mentioned on this thread having the potential to be targeted for a hate crime. I pretty much see it just like boi does. Getting your ass beat for whatever reason sucks. I doubt if any particular law penalizing motives really has much effect deterring some ass from doing hateful shit to certain types of people. What we need to do is strike fear in the hearts of those who would perpetrate such crimes. If you find yourself being hunted down by a bunch of gay bashers, just shoot them.


If you're so worried about hate crimes there are a few rules of common sense you can follow. If you're black, stay out of redneck bars. If you're gay, don't out yourself in a redneck bar. If you're white, stay out of bars where only black people go. Lastly, if you're dressed up in drag, don't go prancing down the Main Street of some dusty cow town in West Texas without packin heat.


I believe the two cretins that murdered James Byrd took
him from his business place not a redneck bar.
They purposefully searched out a black man to murder.
It wasn't a robbery. It was a racially motivated murder.
James Byrd was killed because he was black.

My uncle who is gay was brutally beaten by some
gay bashing thugs. He was hospitalized because of
his injuries.

I'm really to astonished at what you've written in this
post to say anything other than are you fucking serious?


Thank you, winterapple, you hit a home run, the idea that somehow the victim is to blame is idiotic. It is like the douchebag people in Steubenville, Ohio who defended the mutants who molested that girl, blaming her for being drunk or in the wrong place. As far as packing heat, the problem with that is if you are a trans person in redneck texas and you blow away some good ole boys getting ready to beat you up or rape you, who do you think will get arrested? Think Buford T Butt Fuck is going to see it as justified if a 'faggot' kills some good ole boys?

(in reply to Winterapple)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/16/2013 10:02:21 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		FR
1) Hate crimes do not limit speech. If all you do is speak you will never ever be prosecuted under any hate crime statute in the US.
2) There are many other factors used to make punishment for a crime more severe, use of a firearm for instance, so it is perfectly reasonable to increase the penalty for targeting a person for violence because of their status.

So my question is, what is the big problem? Unless you're prone to doing violence against someone purely because of their status in some group, which certainly isn't Constitutionally protected, why even worry about this?

(in reply to njlauren)
Profile   Post #: 120
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