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RE: US Navy Shootings. - 9/18/2013 12:08:44 AM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: stef


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

He had the shotgun in his car when he came through the gate. He shot the guard at the building checkpoint and took his weapons, the handgun and the rifle.

What rifle?

I think the confusion comes from the fact that Piers Morgan announced that the shooter used a ar-15 shotgun.
Of course, Morgan makes Kendom look like John Browning, but some on the left have to have that ar15 in the mix.

The initial police reports said a shotgun, a pistol and an AR-15 rifle were recovered.


Ken you do know that I was in no way insulting you don't you.
There is still no suck thing as a ar 15 shotgun.
D C cops, not a lot better than Morgan

I didn't think you were. I was clarifying that I got that info from sources that were not Piers Morgan and actually was many hours before his show which I did not watch.



Fair enough

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People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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RE: US Navy Shootings. - 9/18/2013 2:01:40 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Then where did he get the 2 handguns? Did the gun fairy appear and give them to him?

Military personnel are forbidden from carrying firearms on base absent “a credible and specific threat.” Authorization is limited to exceptions like guards at gates, etc. I've never heard anyone refer to them as "gun fairies" before, but I urge you to try it.

K.






< Message edited by Kirata -- 9/18/2013 2:07:49 AM >

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RE: US Navy Shootings. - 9/18/2013 2:11:32 AM   
popeye1250


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How far is the IRS from the Navy Yard?
This guy WAS crazy.

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RE: US Navy Shootings. - 9/18/2013 2:38:04 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Then where did he get the 2 handguns? Did the gun fairy appear and give them to him?

Military personnel are forbidden from carrying firearms on base absent “a credible and specific threat.” Authorization is limited to exceptions like guards at gates, etc. I've never heard anyone refer to them as "gun fairies" before, but I urge you to try it.

K.






So you admit it was not a gun free zone. Why not just admit your error without all the snark?

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Profile   Post #: 144
RE: US Navy Shootings. - 9/18/2013 2:38:10 AM   
Kirata


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~ FR ~

‘If We Had the Ammunition, We Could’ve Cleared that Building,’ Son at Navy Yard Told Dad

"My son was at Marine Barracks -- at the Navy Yard yesterday - and they had weapons with them, but they didn't have ammunition. And they said, 'We were trained, and if we had the ammunition, we could've cleared that building.' Only three people had been shot at that time, and they could've stopped the rest of it."

K.

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 145
RE: US Navy Shootings. - 9/18/2013 2:41:53 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

I suspect many of the victims didnt have a clue.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Hey brains, twas but you who suggested people didnt have a clue

Confusing, isn't it. Are you letting someone else use your account? Well anyway, now that you're back to they didn't have a clue, let's go with that before it changes again.

What I am suggesting (follow me closely here) is that when people hear gunshots and see others falling around them, they are unlikely to have much difficulty figuring out that they're being fired upon. I'm not sure why you dispute this, unless perhaps you wouldn't. But I hope that if such a thing ever happens to you, you'll remember this little exchange and hit on the notion.

K.



Sadly, I`m following your train of thought all too closely. The chances of ANYONE being inovolved in such an incident WITHIN the UK are slim to none.

One has to wonder why.


< Message edited by Politesub53 -- 9/18/2013 2:45:24 AM >

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 146
RE: US Navy Shootings. - 9/18/2013 2:44:17 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Military personnel are forbidden from carrying firearms on base absent “a credible and specific threat.” Authorization is limited to exceptions like guards at gates, etc. I've never heard anyone refer to them as "gun fairies" before, but I urge you to try it.

So you admit it was not a gun free zone. Why not just admit your error without all the snark?

Stop making shit up. The people who died were all unarmed as a matter of base policy, even if they were licensed to carry. According to Yahoo News, "the victims ranged in age from 46 to 73, and were either civilians or contractors." Except for on-duty authorized personnel, who like the police are authorized to carry in the line of duty even if called to a school, it was a gun-free zone.

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 9/18/2013 2:53:54 AM >

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RE: US Navy Shootings. - 9/18/2013 2:47:17 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Heh. My thought exactly. Methinks Polite is a sucker for a uniform.

K.[/font][/size]


Nurse, Women Police Officer, Lady Teacher..... It all works.

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Profile   Post #: 148
RE: US Navy Shootings. - 9/18/2013 2:48:41 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

He did in petticoat pirates.
Allo my Darlings


Smiles.

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Profile   Post #: 149
RE: US Navy Shootings. - 9/18/2013 2:53:32 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


~ FR ~

‘If We Had the Ammunition, We Could’ve Cleared that Building,’ Son at Navy Yard Told Dad

"My son was at Marine Barracks -- at the Navy Yard yesterday - and they had weapons with them, but they didn't have ammunition. And they said, 'We were trained, and if we had the ammunition, we could've cleared that building.' Only three people had been shot at that time, and they could've stopped the rest of it."

K.


Marine Barracks Washington is at 8th and I not on the Navy Yard. You can tell by it being a separate base. It's about 6 blocks away from the building that was attacked and on the other side of I-695. If Marines still provide the gate guards at the Yard, they did when I was stationed in the area, they were armed but likely kept to their posts which is the right thing to do. He was engaged by base security relatively quickly after the shooting started probably a lot faster than a bunch of Marines at 8th and I could have gotten armed and gotten over to a building they were not familiar with.

You really should know better than to believe crazy ass stories in the far right press by now.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 150
RE: US Navy Shootings. - 9/18/2013 3:00:10 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Military personnel are forbidden from carrying firearms on base absent “a credible and specific threat.” Authorization is limited to exceptions like guards at gates, etc. I've never heard anyone refer to them as "gun fairies" before, but I urge you to try it.

So you admit it was not a gun free zone. Why not just admit your error without all the snark?

Stop making shit up. The people who died were all unarmed as a matter of base policy, even if they were licensed to carry. According to Yahoo News, "the victims ranged in age from 46 to 73, and were either civilians or contractors." Except for on-duty authorized personnel, who like the police are authorized to carry in the line of duty even if called to a school, it was a gun-free zone.

K.


So you still don't seem to understand. A gun free zone means no guns. There were people carrying guns, they were some of the people shot as the shooter took their weapons. This is a military base no one does much of anything unless authorized to do so. And I'm confident no one would authorize a bunch of office workers to routinely pack heat.

The people who should have had guns did and they responded to the attack and some of them got wounded or killed and you disgrace them by this bullshit.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 151
RE: US Navy Shootings. - 9/18/2013 3:03:11 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

...probably...

You really should know better than to believe crazy ass stories in the far right press by now.

The story reports what some of the Marines thought. I don't know if it's true, and neither do you. But anytime I have to choose between what someone on site or nearby thought, and what you claimed from your armchair a thousand miles away, let's just say that smart money doesn't buck a trend.

K.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 152
RE: US Navy Shootings. - 9/18/2013 3:09:12 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

A gun free zone means no guns. There were people carrying guns, they were some of the people shot as the shooter took their weapons...

According to Yahoo News (quoted previously) and NBC you're making shit up again.
    None of the fatalities is reported to be military personnel. The rest of the injured individuals suffered non-life threatening injuries and are expected to recover. ~NBC
According to CBS, all of the dead were office workers and none of the wounded were military personnel.
    In addition to those killed, at least three people - a police officer and two female civilians - were wounded. They were listed in stable condition and were expected to survive ~CBS
Unless all three sources are in error, no military personnel were either wounded or killed.

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 9/18/2013 3:28:07 AM >

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RE: US Navy Shootings. - 9/18/2013 3:33:29 AM   
tweakabelle


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**** WARNING: This is a blatant attempt to move the discussion onto more productive ground *****


Another mass slaying. Reactions of outrage quickly morph into pre-established positions on either side of the gun debate. No one has anything new to say, no one is prepared to move an inch and of course nothing gets done.

Getting lost in the debate is the possibly the most fundamental question of all: Why do these nuts reach for a gun and slaughter innocent people so regularly? These slayings are occurring with such regularity that one wonders whether the individual motive/triggers matter that much. An alien observer could be forgiven for concluding these massacres are routine or even systematic

While there are occasional reports of such massacres occurring outside the US, in the main they appear to be a US phenomenon. Why is it that they keep occurring in the US? The availability of guns answers this question in part, but it doesn’t explain the propensity to use them so regularly for such evil purposes. Guns enjoy a centrality in US culture, in the national psyche that is unparalleled elsewhere.

Guns and violence occupy an ambivalent position at the centre of US culture and history. Guns were integral to the foundation of the State, to the conquest of the West, to the great victories of WWI and II. They were also integral to the notoriety of figures such as BIlly the Kid or Al Capone - thugs or folk heroes depending on your point of view. Gun rights were enshrined in the Constitution, the basis of all law, yet some Americans seem to trust guns more than law enforcement to protect their rights and property. Guns evoke a range of reactions ranging from fascination and adulation to fear and loathing, they are seen as both a problem and a solution. In many ways and on many levels, US attitudes to guns resemble a cultural fetish.

Does American culture’s fetish for guns propel the nuts who destroy so many lives so wantonly? If so what can be done about it?

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 9/18/2013 3:48:37 AM >


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RE: US Navy Shootings. - 9/18/2013 3:43:15 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Does American culture’s fetish for guns propel the nuts who destroy so many lives so wantonly?

The common elements in these mass shootings, one or more of which seems to be present in almost every case, are gun-free zones, anti-depressants, and prior evidence of instability or violence that was ignored. With an extimated 80+ million gun owners in America, if access to firearms was a sufficient explanation most of them would be dead by now.

As for guns and violence more generally, you can't speak of America's "fetish for guns" in such a monolithic way. It has been observed more than once that there are two very different "gun cultures" (for want of a better expression) in America . There is the traditional American culture of legitimate and legal owners using guns for self-defense, sport, hunting, and recreation, and then there is a dysfunctional underclass culture of guns and violence which, despite representing only a small fraction of the population, accounts for half our entire national homicide rate.

Lumping the two together, with a garnish of perjoratives, elevates bias above reality.

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 9/18/2013 3:59:05 AM >

(in reply to tweakabelle)
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RE: US Navy Shootings. - 9/18/2013 3:53:45 AM   
tweakabelle


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Another element was the perpetrators wanted to achieve something

What is it that they want to achieve? Why is butchering a whole load of strangers seen as contributing to this end?

Whatever it is that they wish to achieve, it seems that it is worthwhile enough to them that they will probably forfeit their lives for it. If it was merely notoriety, well there are easier and less destructive ways of achieving that for their allotted 15 minutes.

Why do they use guns rather than say a bomb, which is a far more effective way of killing people en masse, a method that offers potential evasion from capture too?

Why do they use a culturally approved method - guns - rather than a culturally disapproved method like suicide bombing?

ETA I'm not sure I know the answers to these questions, or if they are the correct questions to be asking, but continually re-hashing the same barren ground as these gun related threads seem to, seems pointless to me

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 9/18/2013 3:58:48 AM >


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RE: US Navy Shootings. - 9/18/2013 4:14:29 AM   
Lucylastic


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The FBI's definition of mass murder is the slaying of four or more people. There have been at least 17 such tragedies already this year where the victims were gunned down, but shootings related to drug or gang violence often get less attention than those perpetrated by a crazed gunman.

HuffPost combed through a variety of news sources, including Reddit's community-generated database of mass shootings, and came up with this graphic, which may be incomplete. Killing sprees that occurred in more than one location were counted, but mass shootings that unfolded over more than one day, such as the string of homicides committed by ex-cop Christopher Dorner in Los Angeles, were not.

This is just one small and somewhat arbitrary measure of gun violence, but it shows that mass shootings have become too common for each to be treated as a national event. Guns have killed about 24,580 Americans since Newtown, according to Slate's estimate based on data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

Mass Shootings Since Newtown

Sept. 16, 2013 - Washington, D.C. - 13 dead (including gunman)

Defense contract employee and former Navy reservist Aaron Alexis, 34, allegedly opened fire shortly after 8 a.m. inside building 197 in the Washington Navy Yard, killing 12 people and wounding more than a dozen others. Alexis was slain in a gun battle with police.
Sept. 11, 2013 - Crab Orchard, Tenn. - 4 dead

Jacob Allen Bennett, 26, was arrested in the shooting deaths of a woman and three teenagers. Their bodies were found in a car about 50 miles west of Knoxville, Tenn.
August 14, 2013 - Oklahoma City, Okla. - 4 dead

Daniel Livingston Green, 40, was arrested on four counts of first-degree murder, after his mother, sister and her two children were discovered fatally shot inside their home.
August 11, 2013 - Omaha, Neb. - 4 dead

Nikko Jenkins, 26, was arrested for allegedly shooting four people in the head. Police say three of the four victims had no connection to Jenkins.

2013 Mass Shootings
1 of 17

AP


Next
Aug. 7, 2013 - Dallas - 4 dead

Erbie Lee Bowser, 44, a former teacher and Dallas Mavericks hip-hop dancer, was charged with two counts of capital murder after police said he attacked the homes of his estranged wife and his girlfriend, killing both women and two of their children. Four additional people were wounded in the attacks.
July 26, 2013 - Hialeah, Fla. - 7 dead (including gunman)

Police say Pedro Vargas, 42, went on a shooting spree in his South Florida apartment complex, killing the building's two managers, a family of three, and a man returning from his son's boxing practice. Before the attack, Vargas called the police asking the dispatcher to run the license plate of a vehicle parked outside the building, after reporting he had been followed and threatened by people doing witchcraft.
Vargas was killed by a SWAT team after an eight-hour stand-off with police, during which he took two people hostage. The hostages were rescued when the SWAT team stormed the apartment.
July 26, 2013 - Clarksburg, W. Va. - 4 dead

Sidney Muller, 27, was arrested on four counts of first-degree murder for allegedly killing two individuals after a drug deal gone wrong. Muller allegedly then turned his weapon on two passersby, a father and his son who were delivering the local newspaper, killing them.
June 7, 2013 - Santa Monica, Calif. - 5 dead (including gunman)

Police say John Zawahri, 23, armed with a homemade assault rifle and high-capacity magazines, killed his brother and father at their home and then headed to Santa Monica College, where he carjacked a woman, ordering her to drive him around while he fired at other people. The woman escaped unharmed but two other people were gunned down.
Zawahri was confronted by police outside the school's library. They traded fire and police officers ultimately shot him dead.
May 11, 2013 - Waynesville, Ind. - 4 dead

Four bodies were discovered in a home after a vicious killing that authorities said was a drug-related crime. One victim's son returned home to find the bodies and reported them to 911. Police say Samuel Sallee, 55, is the prime suspect in the case.
May 10, 2013 - Fernley, Nev. - 5 dead

Jeremiah Bean, 25, was arrested days after allegedly killing an elderly couple in their home, then a newspaper delivery man and another couple nearby. Police say the first attack went undetected, giving Bean the opportunity to commit the three others. He was arraigned on 19 counts, including first-degree murder, arson and burglary.
April 24, 2013 - Manchester, Ill. - 5 dead

Rick Odell Smith, 43, allegedly stormed a home, killing five members of the same family. Smith had been in a dispute with at least one of the victims, potentially over the custody of a child, police said. The five victims included a grandmother, her granddaughter, the granddaughter's boyfriend and their two children.
April 21, 2013 - Federal Way, Wash. - 4 dead (including gunman)

A domestic-violence homicide claimed three additional lives before the gunman was killed by responding officers. Police say Dennis Clark III, 27, shot and killed his girlfriend in their shared apartment before killing two witnesses in the building's parking lot and a third victim in another apartment.
April 18, 2013 - Akron, Ohio - 4 dead

Derrick Brantley and Deshanon Haywood, both 21, were each charged for the murder of four adults, two men and two women, who had been found shot in the head in a townhouse basement. Police say two guns were used.
March 13, 2013 - Herkimer County, N.Y. - 4 dead

In a shooting rampage that spanned two upstate New York villages, Kurt Meyers, 64, allegedly took the lives of four people. Police say Meyers first opened fire in a barber shop in Mohawk, killing two customers, one a retired corrections officer. The gunman then fled to an auto care business in neighboring Herkimer and fatally shot an employee and a customer who was a 23-year veteran of the state Department of Corrections. According to authorities, the gunman had no money, no job and was maxed out on his credit cards.
Jan. 19, 2013 - Albuquerque, N.M. - 5 dead

Nehemiah Griego, 15, is accused of killing both his parents and three younger siblings. According to police documents, Griego shot his mother while she slept, then killed his brother and sisters after they woke up. Griego told authorities he ambushed his father, who was returning home from work, with a semi-automatic rifle that his parents owned. All victims appeared to have gunshot wounds to the head. New Mexico authorities also report that the teen had planned to go to Walmart and randomly shoot people.
Jan. 7, 2013 - Tulsa, Okla. - 4 dead

Brothers Cedric Poore, 39, and James Poore, 32, are accused of killing four women, two of whom were twins. The victims, found in an apartment, were all mothers, and a 3-year-old boy was also found unharmed.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/17/mass-shootings-2013_n_3941889.html


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Profile   Post #: 157
RE: US Navy Shootings. - 9/18/2013 4:16:10 AM   
tweakabelle


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From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata



quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Does American culture’s fetish for guns propel the nuts who destroy so many lives so wantonly?

.

As for guns and violence more generally, you can't speak of America's "fetish for guns" in such a monolithic way.


That's a fair enough comment. I tried to mention some of contradictions in my first post when I highlighted the "ambivalence" towards guns in the US.

quote:

It has been observed more than once that there are two very different "gun cultures" (for want of a better expression) in America . There is the traditional American culture of legitimate and legal owners using guns for self-defense, sport, hunting, and recreation, and then there is a dysfunctional underclass culture of guns and violence which, despite representing only a small fraction of the population, accounts for half our entire national homicide rate.




Most of those who carry out these mass slayings seem to come from the first group - they are generally law abiding, not involved in gangs or organised crime, substance addicted or any of the other common indicators that suggest "dysfunctional underclass".

One might also note that if this underclass is responsible for half of all homicides, then the 'law abiding' group is responsible for the other half.

Would you agree that Americans, more than other people, tend to see security of self and property as a personal responsibility as opposed to an area that the State should provide, consistent with their views on personal responsibility and a minimalist State generally

Please note I am not trying to make adversarial points here, (rightly or wrongly) I am trying to shift the discussion towards more productive ground.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 9/18/2013 4:17:19 AM >


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RE: US Navy Shootings. - 9/18/2013 4:31:44 AM   
Kirata


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Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

prior evidence of instability or violence that was ignored

In addition to the reports of Alexis' prior arrests for discharing a firearm recklessly, now we have this:
    Six weeks before going on a killing spree at the Washington Navy Yard, Aaron Alexis told Rhode Island police that he was being followed by individuals who were using a "microwave machine" to send vibrations into his body that kept him from falling asleep... Alexis refused to tell cops what the voices were saying to him “through the walls, floor and ceiling...” The police response? He was advised to, “stay away from the individuals that are following him.” ~Source
People with a history of recklessly discharging firearms and/or clear derangement should not pass a background check.

K.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 159
RE: US Navy Shootings. - 9/18/2013 4:37:32 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

One might also note that if this underclass is responsible for half of all homicides, then the 'law abiding' group is responsible for the other half.

Granted. But one might also note that the "other half" comprises about 95% of the population, so it's not even remotely a case of each being equally violent and a cause for concern.

K.

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 160
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