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RE: Teaching Our Children - 9/18/2013 11:55:11 AM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

I smelled a hoax myself, but there's a .pdf of the book online at

http://www.conejo.k12.ca.us/Portals/49/Departments/Social%20Science/Palotay/Amsco.pdf

That wording of the 2nd Amendment is on p 134.



Your link is to the 2010 revision and the wording is on book P.102 and is exactly as K posted -

Second Amendment. The people have the right to keep and bear arms in a state militia


The wording on my link to that edition was the same as that.

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RE: Teaching Our Children - 9/18/2013 11:59:25 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge

So this is a government conspiracy of disinformation in order to dumb down our young people so they are subservient and ignorant of their rights? That is a bit of a reach.

Talk about a reach, you're just making shit up. I never even remotely suggested anything of the kind.

K.





< Message edited by Kirata -- 9/18/2013 12:01:51 PM >

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RE: Teaching Our Children - 9/18/2013 12:02:16 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Shouldn't a summary summarize the actual meaning?

Isn't this splitting hairs a little bit? If you hit the highlights of something and lose a bit of the original meaning, is that not what a summary is?
I am not certain what the problem that people are having with the understanding of a condensed version serving to bring to mind the very basic essence of something that a student should already know. For instance, ROY G. BIV is a condensing of the order of the colors in the rainbow. Now, if they only taught ROY G. BIV to children and left out the essential meaning of it, then I can see your point, but obviously they do not.


No. It isn't splitting hairs. And, as a bald guy, I'm offended the use of that phrase. Actually, I'm not. I'm completely kidding about that!

If it can't be condensed without changing the meaning, then it shouldn't be condensed. Seriously, Gauge. We're a talking about 27 words being condensed to 14, and inaccurately representing the meaning of the Amendment. To keep the accuracy intact, you could even drop that down to 10 words: "The people have the right to keep and bear arms." Fuckin' A! Would have saved them an extra line on the page, too!

No. It's not splitting hairs. It's supporting accuracy.


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RE: Teaching Our Children - 9/18/2013 12:03:58 PM   
Gauge


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

That's even more of a reach. You're just making shit up. I never even remotely suggested anything of the kind, and the book isn't published by the government anyway.

K.


I am not making shit up. I was offering an interpretation of your vague comment. There is no need for hostility, I am not arguing nor trying to make anyone look stupid. Perhaps an elaboration on your original statement would be useful so I can understand what point you are trying to make.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Given such a blatant misrepresentation of fact, the question is: Essential to what?

K.




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RE: Teaching Our Children - 9/18/2013 12:04:33 PM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		"The people have the right to keep and bear arms."


But that would be incorrectly distilled as well, it is not an unlimited right.(SCOTUS says so)

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RE: Teaching Our Children - 9/18/2013 12:14:41 PM   
Gauge


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

No. It isn't splitting hairs. And, as a bald guy, I'm offended the use of that phrase. Actually, I'm not. I'm completely kidding about that!

If it can't be condensed without changing the meaning, then it shouldn't be condensed. Seriously, Gauge. We're a talking about 27 words being condensed to 14, and inaccurately representing the meaning of the Amendment. To keep the accuracy intact, you could even drop that down to 10 words: "The people have the right to keep and bear arms." Fuckin' A! Would have saved them an extra line on the page, too!

No. It's not splitting hairs. It's supporting accuracy.



Bald Power my follically challenged Brother!

Anyway, please understand, I get exactly what your point is and yes, it does lose accuracy, but it does that in other areas of the book too. This is nothing short of the Cliff Notes.

How exactly would you put the Bill of Rights into a summary then? You are going to have to lose some accuracy because it is impossible to summarize otherwise.

I guess my lack of a problem with this is that this book never claims to be something that it is not. I would be right there with you if it was not a very obvious summary. I am not trying to be oppositional for the sake of anything but trying to understand why something like this is a problem.

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"For there is no folly of the beast of the earth which is not infinitely outdone by the madness of men." Herman Melville - Moby Dick

I'm wearing my chicken suit and humming La Marseillaise.

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RE: Teaching Our Children - 9/18/2013 12:15:49 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
"The people have the right to keep and bear arms."
But that would be incorrectly distilled as well, it is not an unlimited right.(SCOTUS says so)


Perfectly accurate? Nope. A lot more accurate than what was actually in the textbook? Yup. As a basic idea, the people do have the right to keep and bear arms. There are conditions. But, there are also conditions on all the Amendments, aren't there? The textbook links the right to the people being in a militia. That isn't even close to being right.

Maybe the textbook should have said something along the lines of "the people have the right to wear short sleeves." True enough, but still not an accurate interpretation of the Amendment.


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What I support:

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  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

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Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Teaching Our Children - 9/18/2013 12:18:50 PM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		Yeah, I am unsure which is more inaccurate. I know of a great deal of books with inaccuracies, washington chopping down a cherry tree, lincoln writing in coal on the back of a shovel, in the civil war to free the slaves, WMD, republicans and fiscal responsibility, ad nauseam.

I don't see it as much of a big deal, and see where others think it is bigger than the republican created massive deficit. I think it is smaller (by far) than the 42nd repeal of Obamacare, and it will mean as much 'change' for the teabaggers.



< Message edited by mnottertail -- 9/18/2013 12:21:36 PM >

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RE: Teaching Our Children - 9/18/2013 12:23:06 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
No. It isn't splitting hairs. And, as a bald guy, I'm offended the use of that phrase. Actually, I'm not. I'm completely kidding about that!
If it can't be condensed without changing the meaning, then it shouldn't be condensed. Seriously, Gauge. We're a talking about 27 words being condensed to 14, and inaccurately representing the meaning of the Amendment. To keep the accuracy intact, you could even drop that down to 10 words: "The people have the right to keep and bear arms." Fuckin' A! Would have saved them an extra line on the page, too!
No. It's not splitting hairs. It's supporting accuracy.

Bald Power my follically challenged Brother!
Anyway, please understand, I get exactly what your point is and yes, it does lose accuracy, but it does that in other areas of the book too. This is nothing short of the Cliff Notes.
How exactly would you put the Bill of Rights into a summary then? You are going to have to lose some accuracy because it is impossible to summarize otherwise.
I guess my lack of a problem with this is that this book never claims to be something that it is not. I would be right there with you if it was not a very obvious summary. I am not trying to be oppositional for the sake of anything but trying to understand why something like this is a problem.


Summary
    quote:

    adj.
      1. Presenting the substance in a condensed form; concise: a summary review.
      2. Performed speedily and without ceremony: summary justice; a summary rejection.

    n. pl. sum·ma·ries
      A presentation of the substance of a body of material in a condensed form or by reducing it to its main points; an abstract.


The substance of an Amendment isn't really just the words used, but the meaning.

    2nd Amendment. Citizens have the right to own firearms.


Done.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

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Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Teaching Our Children - 9/18/2013 12:45:58 PM   
Gauge


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

Summary
    quote:

    adj.
      1. Presenting the substance in a condensed form; concise: a summary review.
      2. Performed speedily and without ceremony: summary justice; a summary rejection.

    n. pl. sum·ma·ries
      A presentation of the substance of a body of material in a condensed form or by reducing it to its main points; an abstract.


The substance of an Amendment isn't really just the words used, but the meaning.

    2nd Amendment. Citizens have the right to own firearms.


Done.


OK, I see now what you are getting at. Thank you for the clarification. What you are upset about is the statement in the summary that makes it appear that there is only one condition where it is OK to bear arms rather than state that we have the right to bear arms with no conditions?

If this is the case then I see your point.

While poorly summarized, and if you read some other sections of the book this is not exclusive to this one example alone, the book is still just reference and not teaching material. I just can't get up in arms (pun definitely intended) over something that is not presenting itself as anything other than a guide.


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RE: Teaching Our Children - 9/19/2013 4:52:05 AM   
VideoAdminChi


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A number of posts have been removed. Please do not make other posters the topic.

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RE: Teaching Our Children - 9/19/2013 7:26:33 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge

Perhaps an elaboration on your original statement would be useful so I can understand what point you are trying to make.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Given such a blatant misrepresentation of fact, the question is: Essential to what?


Alright, building on what DS already pointed out, both of the authors are professionals holding doctorates. John J. Newman is an Adjunct Assistant Professor of History Education at Illinois University. John M. Schmalbach teaches Advanced Placement U.S. History at Abraham Lincoln High School in Philadelphia. They present their credentials for writing the text in its opening pages. Accordingly, both of them know or certainly should know a thing or two about U.S. History. Except that either they don't, or else they considered conveying certain facts to be less "essential" than injecting into students minds their preferred interpretation of them.

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 9/19/2013 7:31:21 AM >

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RE: Teaching Our Children - 9/19/2013 7:31:47 AM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
But either they don't, or else they considered that conveying certain facts was less "essential" than injecting into students minds their preferred interpretation of them.


Or they were just slapdash in writing the book. I've seen worse-written garbage in high school textbooks here.

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RE: Teaching Our Children - 9/19/2013 7:38:32 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Or they were just slapdash in writing the book. I've seen worse-written garbage in high school textbooks here.

Well it does seem slapdash enough. But their "summary" of the Second Amendment is on a par with listing Trayvon Washington as our first President.

K.

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RE: Teaching Our Children - 9/19/2013 7:44:25 AM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		Or chopping cherry trees, or Lincolns civil war was about freeing the slaves, or Smoot-Hawley started or deepened the depreession, or any number of mis-statements in our histories promulgated thru schoolbooks.

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 9/19/2013 7:45:19 AM >

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RE: Teaching Our Children - 9/19/2013 8:34:15 AM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

"The people have the right to keep and bear arms."


But that would be incorrectly distilled as well, it is not an unlimited right.(SCOTUS says so)

Then saying that the 1st protects freedom of speech is misleading since you can't yell fire in a crowded theater.

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RE: Teaching Our Children - 9/19/2013 8:36:19 AM   
DaddySatyr


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

"The people have the right to keep and bear arms."

But that would be incorrectly distilled as well, it is not an unlimited right.(SCOTUS says so)



Then saying that the 1st protects freedom of speech is misleading since you can't yell fire in a crowded theater.



Well played, sir!

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RE: Teaching Our Children - 9/19/2013 8:54:42 AM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

"The people have the right to keep and bear arms."


But that would be incorrectly distilled as well, it is not an unlimited right.(SCOTUS says so)

Then saying that the 1st protects freedom of speech is misleading since you can't yell fire in a crowded theater.


Correct.

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RE: Teaching Our Children - 9/19/2013 1:17:14 PM   
RottenJohnny


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge
No one has ever heard of Cliff Notes? Those books condense literature into its most basic essence. In the process they leave out gigantic parts of the book which in turn leaves out some of the overall meaning and point of the book. Cliff Notes never represents itself to be the book, it only serves as a guide. If you want to know what the book actually says, you have to go and read the book.

And if the Bill of Rights was just a piece of literature I might agree with you, but it isn't.

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RE: Teaching Our Children - 9/19/2013 1:27:21 PM   
mnottertail


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EE-HA!!!!

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