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RE: I like this Pope more and more - 9/20/2013 6:58:41 PM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

See the bait and switch? She's talking about the institution, your response acts like she's talking about the man. As such I repeat myself; she said THEIR not his, please don't strawman.

In fairness to Butch, the man and the institution tend to blur in the case of the pope.

Ubi Petrus, ibi ecclesia and all that.

I won't contest that it's possible to construct a figurative interpretation of her words which leads to the position that kdsub is claiming on her behalf. I'm contesting the validity of doing such a thing.

If he'd asked her something along the lines of "do you think this" or "do you mean this" that would be entirely reasonable. However, that's not what happened. Here it is again:

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess
Losing followers has a way of causing institutions to redefine their mission statement.

I think you are wrong here... This man is not changing his views just to stop declining membership.

There's a rather literal interpretation of these words which isn't particularly controversial i.e. that having seen the mess which came from electing Pope Sidious (head of the Inquisition) the Catholic Church decided to go in a different direction this time.

Instead fucktoy is informed that she's wrong based on a highly figurative interpretation which is easily argued against. I hope you'll agree with me that isn't a valid thing to do, keeping in mind how discussions will occur if the tactic is considered valid. That everyone would have a good deal of me informing them that you're wrong based on the dumbest possible interpretation of your words to look forward to.

(in reply to dcnovice)

Post #: 21

RE: I like this Pope more and more - 9/20/2013 7:17:48 PM

GotSteel

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Joined: 2/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Anyway he has no right to decide what fucktoyprincess was thinking or saying... That is for her to say.

Absolutely, and a request for clarification would have been great. In the absence of that there's something you are supposed to do. A really basic concept, we're talking philosophy 101 shit here.

The Principle of Charity

"In philosophy and rhetoric, the principle of charity requires interpreting a speaker's statements to be rational and, in the case of any argument, considering its best, strongest possible interpretation.[1] In its narrowest sense, the goal of this methodological principle is to avoid attributing irrationality, logical fallacies or falsehoods to the others' statements, when a coherent, rational interpretation of the statements is available."

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 22

RE: I like this Pope more and more - 9/20/2013 7:24:40 PM

dcnovice

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Joined: 8/2/2006
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Steel, have you considered the possibility that you may be overthinking this?

Here's how I read things:

(a) Ftp noted, accurately imho, that institutions often "rebrand" (to borrow a vogue word) when their numbers drop. (I'm not entirely sure that accords with Catholic history, but that's another story.) Given the context of the thread, it's far from unreasonable to think that she was pointing to the pope's interview as an example of that phenomenon. Otherwise, the comment's irrelevant, no?

(b) Butch disagreed, offering his view that Francis's words stemmed from deeply held beliefs rather than a p.r. effort. I honestly don't see how that's strawmanning.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to GotSteel)

Post #: 23

RE: I like this Pope more and more - 9/20/2013 8:05:09 PM

dcnovice

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Joined: 8/2/2006
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quote:

There's a rather literal interpretation of these words which isn't particularly controversial i.e. that having seen the mess which came from electing Pope Sidious (head of the Inquisition) the Catholic Church decided to go in a different direction this time.

That wasn't how I read it, to be honest, and your interpretation seems a bit of a stretch. Given that the thread's about Francis, why assume that ftp was talking about the cardinals instead?

It also imposes a very American mindset onto the cardinals. We forget that the curia thinks in centuries. This, after all, was the institution that watched half of Europe leave during the Reformation, then responded with the Council of Trent. So I'm not at all sure that they see Benedict's pontificate as a mess, nor am I convinced that they truly knew what they were getting in Francis. Indeed, my own reaction after frantic post-white-smoke reading was disappointment that the conclave had picked another conservative.

< Message edited by dcnovice -- 9/20/2013 8:07:46 PM >

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to GotSteel)

Post #: 24

RE: I like this Pope more and more - 9/20/2013 8:39:59 PM

GotSteel

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Joined: 2/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
Steel, have you considered the possibility that you may be overthinking this?

It's not just a possibility, I'm generally over thinking things. I've certainly contested the dumbest possible interpretation before on behalf of people who probably were thinking the dumbest thing we could think of. I do it because it's important to me that people understand how to have intellectually honest discussions. If we don't get that, discourse is doomed to be useless.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
Here's how I read things:

(a) Ftp noted, accurately imho, that institutions often "rebrand" (to borrow a vogue word) when their numbers drop. (I'm not entirely sure that accords with Catholic history, but that's another story.) Given the context of the thread, it's far from unreasonable to think that she was pointing to the pope's interview as an example of that phenomenon.

I'm just going to cut and paste here: "I won't contest that it's possible to construct a figurative interpretation of her words which leads to the position that kdsub is claiming on her behalf." Do you get that? I'm not claiming you can't get there. I am claiming it's not the only interpretation.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
Otherwise, the comment's irrelevant, no?

No. To rephrase an alternate interpretation yet again. The change in spokesperson from literally a Nazi to bigot-lite could be considered an example of the rebranding phenomenon.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
(b) Butch disagreed, offering his view that Francis's words stemmed from deeply held beliefs rather than a p.r. effort. I honestly don't see how that's strawmanning.

His choice to interpret "institutions" as Francis and "their" to mean one guy as in the royal their or something...

(in reply to dcnovice)

Post #: 25

RE: I like this Pope more and more - 9/20/2013 8:42:15 PM

GotSteel

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..

< Message edited by GotSteel -- 9/20/2013 8:43:10 PM >

(in reply to GotSteel)

Post #: 26

RE: I like this Pope more and more - 9/20/2013 8:43:35 PM

dcnovice

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I don't think we're gonna see eye to eye on this one.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to GotSteel)

Post #: 27

RE: I like this Pope more and more - 9/21/2013 3:55:16 AM

leonine

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From: [email protected]
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A commentator in the Guardian noted that he wouldn't like to be this guy's life insurer. The record shows that liberal reforming Popes have the life expectancy of a cheap filament lightbulb, and no autopsy when they die.

_____________________________

Leo9

Gonna pack in my hand, pick up on a piece of land and build myself a cabin in the woods.
It's there I'm gonna stay, until there comes a day when this old world starts a-changing for the good.
- James Taylor

(in reply to dcnovice)

Post #: 28

RE: I like this Pope more and more - 9/21/2013 8:07:15 AM

fucktoyprincess

Posts: 2337
Status: offline

Again I would redirect everyone to what Pope Francis actually said (as opposed to the media reports of what he said).

Pope Francis clearly states, "the teaching of the church, for that matter, is clear and I am a son of the church, but it is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time....we need to find a new balance otherwise even the moral edifice of the church is likely to fall like a house of cards."

Again, I stand by my original post with the one caveat below.

My use of the word "followers". I do not mean by this the "membership" of the church which would include anyone and everyone who self-identifies as Catholic (and also children who are born into Catholic families). By followers I mean those who actively participate. And specifically, the active participation of those who have money is absolutely declining. The church cannot sustain itself without active participants who are willing to reach deeply into their pockets to help support the church hierarchy. No one is more aware of this than Pope Francis. If you lose appeal to well educated, affluent Catholics, the church will absolutely face a decline. While "membership" rates may be increasing in many countries and sub-populations - these are not the countries or sub-polulations that have historically borne the brunt of supporting the economic needs of the church. Looking over a longer time frame into the future, it seems clear to me that the church hierarchy is absolutely concerned about the economic well-being of the church, without which the church cannot realistically sustain itself in all its present glory. Obviously the Vatican gouges tourists to see its vast art collection. But I think the church cannot operate on those funds alone.

For those of you who feel "followers" is not the right word, then substitute "active participants".

As for the right wing feeling nervous about the Pope's comments - the Pope's handlers have dealt with that too:

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57603897/pope-francis-denounces-abortion-after-decrying-churchs-focus-on-rules/

I guess the real issue is whether the church will, in fact, be able to stop talking about abortion, birth control, and gay marriage.

_____________________________

~ ftp

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 29

RE: I like this Pope more and more - 9/21/2013 8:26:44 AM

dcnovice

Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline

quote:

A commentator in the Guardian noted that he wouldn't like to be this guy's life insurer. The record shows that liberal reforming Popes have the life expectancy of a cheap filament lightbulb, and no autopsy when they die.

Do you have a link, by chance, or remember the guy's name? I went to the Guardian site but couldn't find this, and I'd really like to read it.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to leonine)

Post #: 30

RE: I like this Pope more and more - 9/21/2013 8:30:47 AM

dcnovice

Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline

quote:

Again I would redirect everyone to what Pope Francis actually said (as opposed to the media reports of what he said).

This, I agree, is a very important distinction.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to fucktoyprincess)

Post #: 31

RE: I like this Pope more and more - 9/21/2013 10:57:33 AM

crazyml

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Joined: 7/3/2007
Status: offline

I was raised a catholic and am now an atheist, but this guy still rocks.

I predict a stroke or heart attack within 12 months.

_____________________________

Remember.... There's always somewhere on the planet where it's jackass o'clock.

(in reply to kalikshama)

Post #: 32

RE: I like this Pope more and more - 9/21/2013 4:13:58 PM

GotSteel

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Joined: 2/19/2008
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I think that bigot-lite (now with less obvious judgement) is still a huge step forward from actually a Nazi.

(in reply to fucktoyprincess)

Post #: 33

RE: I like this Pope more and more - 9/21/2013 4:57:53 PM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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FR
My point of view is that even if the Catholic leadership spends less time and money on abortion, gay rights and contraception that is still an improvement.

(in reply to GotSteel)

Post #: 34

RE: I like this Pope more and more - 9/21/2013 5:05:33 PM

dcnovice

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Joined: 8/2/2006
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FR

To me, the most startling part of the interview was the pope's comments on the need for the church's teachings to evolve.

The pope comments: “St. Vincent of Lerins makes a comparison between the biological development of man and the transmission from one era to another of the deposit of faith, which grows and is strengthened with time. Here, human self-understanding changes with time and so also human consciousness deepens. Let us think of when slavery was accepted or the death penalty was allowed without any problem. So we grow in the understanding of the truth. Exegetes and theologians help the church to mature in her own judgment. Even the other sciences and their development help the church in its growth in understanding. There are ecclesiastical rules and precepts that were once effective, but now they have lost value or meaning. The view of the church’s teaching as a monolith to defend without nuance or different understandings is wrong.

ETA: This has been my perspective for ages, but I never expected a pope to share it!

< Message edited by dcnovice -- 9/21/2013 5:08:55 PM >

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 35

RE: I like this Pope more and more - 9/21/2013 6:26:11 PM

Kirata

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From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

I think that bigot-lite (now with less obvious judgement) is still a huge step forward from actually a Nazi.

Given that a bigot is someone who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion, I'd have to say that this Pope seems considerably less possessed of bigotry than a post calling him one.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 9/21/2013 6:27:21 PM >

(in reply to GotSteel)

Post #: 36

RE: I like this Pope more and more - 9/22/2013 5:24:50 AM

tweakabelle

Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline

There is another aspect to be considered when we weigh up the Pope's words.

The Catholic Church isn't the only Christian institution divided between a 'liberal' richer Western congregation declining in numbers and political influence and more conservative, poorer membership in the developing countries, ie. those places where the churches are experiencing growth in numbers and influence. .The Anglican Church is on the verge of a world wide split along these lines.

The fault lines are issues such as homosexuality and female priests, with African congregations in particular strongly opposed to any relaxation of the traditional hard line on sexual matters.

The Pope's words can also be seen as an attempt to put these issues on the back burner in the hope of avoiding further damaging divisions. If this perspective has merit, one would have to have increased respect for the new Pope's political skills.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 9/22/2013 5:26:16 AM >

_____________________________

(in reply to dcnovice)

Post #: 37

RE: I like this Pope more and more - 9/22/2013 5:55:21 PM

FatDomDaddy

Posts: 3183
Joined: 1/31/2004
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FR...

A good priest should lean left.

(in reply to tweakabelle)

Post #: 38

RE: I like this Pope more and more - 9/22/2013 6:21:22 PM

Phydeaux

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Joined: 1/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

Again I would redirect everyone to what Pope Francis actually said (as opposed to the media reports of what he said).

Pope Francis clearly states, "the teaching of the church, for that matter, is clear and I am a son of the church, but it is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time....we need to find a new balance otherwise even the moral edifice of the church is likely to fall like a house of cards."

Again, I stand by my original post with the one caveat below.

My use of the word "followers". I do not mean by this the "membership" of the church which would include anyone and everyone who self-identifies as Catholic (and also children who are born into Catholic families). By followers I mean those who actively participate. And specifically, the active participation of those who have money is absolutely declining. The church cannot sustain itself without active participants who are willing to reach deeply into their pockets to help support the church hierarchy. No one is more aware of this than Pope Francis. If you lose appeal to well educated, affluent Catholics, the church will absolutely face a decline. While "membership" rates may be increasing in many countries and sub-populations - these are not the countries or sub-polulations that have historically borne the brunt of supporting the economic needs of the church. Looking over a longer time frame into the future, it seems clear to me that the church hierarchy is absolutely concerned about the economic well-being of the church, without which the church cannot realistically sustain itself in all its present glory. Obviously the Vatican gouges tourists to see its vast art collection. But I think the church cannot operate on those funds alone.

For those of you who feel "followers" is not the right word, then substitute "active participants".

As for the right wing feeling nervous about the Pope's comments - the Pope's handlers have dealt with that too:

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57603897/pope-francis-denounces-abortion-after-decrying-churchs-focus-on-rules/

I guess the real issue is whether the church will, in fact, be able to stop talking about abortion, birth control, and gay marriage.

Again, and where do you have any statistics supporting that point of view. Yes, the take is down in the us where the population is rightly pissed about the handling of sex abuse.

It is burgeoning in Africa, and doing pretty well in asia as well.

(in reply to fucktoyprincess)

Post #: 39

RE: I like this Pope more and more - 9/22/2013 9:45:59 PM

sloguy02246

Posts: 534
Joined: 11/5/2011
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"Yes, the take is down in the us where the population is rightly pissed about the handling of sex abuse."

Agreed.
After all the Pope has said so far, I am still waiting for him to tell us how he intends to deal with the pedophiles in his employ.
Telling everyone else what the correct choices in their lives should be concerning birth control, abortion, and gay marriage means nothing as long as the bigger sin of abuse continues to be committed against children by priests.

(in reply to Phydeaux)

Post #: 40

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