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RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 10/10/2013 11:53:10 AM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

And Florida had a 33% drop in crime when they instituted concealed carry.



And is that number holding today, and is Fla less percapita violence than England?

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(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 381
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 10/10/2013 12:19:12 PM   
Nosathro


Posts: 3319
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From: Orange County, California
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

And Florida had a 33% drop in crime when they instituted concealed carry.


Not completely true. The Florida "Shall Issue" came into law around 1987. On the whole crime had dropped however in specific violent crimes it is now going up. For example the lowest number of murders was 856 in 1999, since then the number of murders have claimed only going down in 2005, 2010 and 2011, 2012 the number was 1,009. Forcible Sex Offenses was also declining and got to it's lowest in 2011 with 9,880 in 2012 it also went up to 10,145. My source for this is the Florida Statistical Analysis Center.



http://www.fdle.state.fl.us/content/fsac/menu/crime-trends/violent-crime.aspx

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 382
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 10/10/2013 12:24:38 PM   
Kirata


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Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Comparing your rights to ours is ludicrous.

http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/united-kingdom

It's almost fair to say you don't have any.

No it isnt, it is all about choice. I thought you were bright enough to get this, obviously not.

Your link doesnt seem to work.

You often seem to think the other guy is stupid when you're wrong about something. Take the link, for example.

Then go try to get a carry license. See how much choice you've got.

K.



(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 383
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 10/10/2013 12:27:36 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Yeah, their blurb is wrong, if you go to the text of the law:

(1) A person commits an offence if, without the authority of the Defence Council or the Scottish Ministers (by virtue of provision made under section 63 of the Scotland Act 1998), he has in his possession, or purchases or acquires, or manufactures, sells or transfers —

So, one can get the authority to have and hold.

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Profile   Post #: 384
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 10/10/2013 12:40:17 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

And Florida had a 33% drop in crime when they instituted concealed carry.

Not completely true. The Florida "Shall Issue" came into law around 1987. On the whole crime had dropped however in specific violent crimes it is now going up. For example the lowest number of murders was 856 in 1999, since then the number of murders have claimed only going down in 2005, 2010 and 2011, 2012 the number was 1,009.

The data only go back to 1992, but they show that between 1992 and 2012 the murder rate dropped 40%.

K.

(in reply to Nosathro)
Profile   Post #: 385
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 10/10/2013 12:42:26 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Yeah, it seems to be working quite well. You're still pushing to change the subject. So I guess it's fair to say you're willing to admit that with the UK's gun laws it's almost like not having any gun rights at all.


You're still pushing to keep the subject in those comfy narrow confines, I see. So I guess it's fair to say that the right to walk around without concern that you might face a gun isn't really a right that you value at all?

quote:

So turning to the right not to get shot, I have a question. I understand that guns are a factor in the risk of getting shot, but is that all you care about? I ask because I'm curious how you feel about people having a right not to be assaulted, robbed, and raped. You don't mention those, but you claim it's the the "gun freaks" who are ignoring such things. It seems to me that you are the one doing that. Because a gun is a very effective factor to have on your side when it comes to not being assaulted, robbed, or raped.

Would you be happy if the homicide rate went down but assaults, robberies, and rapes went up? There would be fewer dead, but more risk of assault, robbery and rape, and more victims whose quality of life has been shattered by crime. You make it sound like a simple seesaw relation that an idiot should be able to see. When the number of guns goes down, safety goes up and happiness abounds.


I didn't claim that gun-freaks are ignoring things like assault, robbery or rape, of course, that's clear from your own citation from my post, so the rest of your argument is against a straw man, K. As always, that straw man is a simpleton, natch.

There's no simple relationship between the number of guns and the numbers or (or severity) of assaults, robberies and rapes. If there were, then there should be huge numbers of assaults, rapes and robberies in the UK but far fewer (per capita, of course) in the USA. In order to bounce back the simplistic question: why isn't the USA so much more peaceful and law-abiding than it is? Why is it that so many countries have both strict gun control and (often much) lower rates of assault, robbery and rape?

Somewhat away from this: I'm beginning to wonder if there's something at the bottom of this control/non-control debate to do with what I think is an individual versus a social view. That is: those who argue for strict gun control and have it in their own country do so from a social basis. They ask, 'What's best for society as a whole?' But when I read the views of gun-supporters in the USA, their arguments seem much more to be about 'What if I were faced by X or Y sort of aggressor, with X or Y level of power to harm me?'. Well, a thought I shall chew on, anyway.


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Profile   Post #: 386
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 10/10/2013 1:20:07 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Somewhat away from this: I'm beginning to wonder if there's something at the bottom of this control/non-control debate to do with what I think is an individual versus a social view. That is: those who argue for strict gun control and have it in their own country do so from a social basis. They ask, 'What's best for society as a whole?' But when I read the views of gun-supporters in the USA, their arguments seem much more to be about 'What if I were faced by X or Y sort of aggressor, with X or Y level of power to harm me?'. Well, a thought I shall chew on, anyway.

Well duh. Are you just figuring out that we have different cultures? Surely that's been said before. Surely it's been obvious? Individual rights, our rights as persons, are at the center of both our culture and our Constitution. But we don't see it as a self-centered "I" as you portray it, we see it as what if any of us as individuals were faced by an aggressor.

Absent mental defect or criminal cause, who has the right to deny to a person the means to defend himself? And by what right? The vote of three wolves and a sheep on what's for lunch? I don't think so. Our rights are not so easily rendered subject to the tyranny of a majority, or a fashion of the age. And we do not intend them ever to become so.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 10/10/2013 1:29:52 PM >

(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 387
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 10/10/2013 1:36:11 PM   
Nosathro


Posts: 3319
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

And Florida had a 33% drop in crime when they instituted concealed carry.

Not completely true. The Florida "Shall Issue" came into law around 1987. On the whole crime had dropped however in specific violent crimes it is now going up. For example the lowest number of murders was 856 in 1999, since then the number of murders have claimed only going down in 2005, 2010 and 2011, 2012 the number was 1,009.

The data only go back to 1992, but they show that between 1992 and 2012 the murder rate dropped 40%.

K.


The data is more recent then 1987. As I stated overall crime is down but not in specific crimes as I stated. In looking at the chart starting in 1992 the number of murders was 1191, it did drop to 856 in 1999, it went up 1129 in 2000, then it dropped again to 985 in 2011, now it is up to 1009 in 2012. Hardly what you would call a steady decline, if the carrying a conceal weapon was the single cause. It will be interesting to see what 2013 is like. It is also interesting to note that the number of murders by guns went up as well, 2011 691 murders by guns, 2012 721 murders by guns. Also Florida crime rate is higher than the national average. Two more things the number of murders in Florida in 1987 was 1371 now with the number of murders in 2012 being 1009, that is an overall drop of 4.9%. The overall number of murders between 1992 and 2012, in ten years a drop of about 2.16%.

< Message edited by Nosathro -- 10/10/2013 1:56:20 PM >

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 388
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 10/10/2013 1:40:33 PM   
Nosathro


Posts: 3319
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Somewhat away from this: I'm beginning to wonder if there's something at the bottom of this control/non-control debate to do with what I think is an individual versus a social view. That is: those who argue for strict gun control and have it in their own country do so from a social basis. They ask, 'What's best for society as a whole?' But when I read the views of gun-supporters in the USA, their arguments seem much more to be about 'What if I were faced by X or Y sort of aggressor, with X or Y level of power to harm me?'. Well, a thought I shall chew on, anyway.

Well duh. Are you just figuring out that we have different cultures? Surely that's been said before. Surely it's been obvious? Individual rights, our rights as persons, are at the center of both our culture and our Constitution. But we don't see it as a self-centered "I" as you portray it, we see it as what if any of us as individuals were faced by an aggressor.

Absent mental defect or criminal cause, who has the right to deny to a person the means to defend himself? And by what right? The vote of three wolves and a sheep on what's for lunch? I don't think so. Our rights are not so easily rendered subject to the tyranny of a majority, or a fashion of the age. And we do not intend them ever to become so.

K.


Yes we are a different culture, one of the most violent in the world. I did not know animals could vote. In a democracy the majority does rule.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 389
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 10/10/2013 1:55:21 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

The data only go back to 1992...

The data is more recent then 1987...

Congratulations.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

As I stated overall crime is down but not in specific crimes as I stated. In looking at the chart starting in 1992 the number of murders was 1191, it did drop to 856 in 1999, it went up 1129 in 2000, then it dropped again to 985 in 2011, now it is up to 1009 in 2012.

As I stated, the data show that the murder rate dropped 40% between 1992 and 2012.

K.

(in reply to Nosathro)
Profile   Post #: 390
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 10/10/2013 2:05:06 PM   
Nosathro


Posts: 3319
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

The data only go back to 1992...

The data is more recent then 1987...

Congratulations.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

As I stated overall crime is down but not in specific crimes as I stated. In looking at the chart starting in 1992 the number of murders was 1191, it did drop to 856 in 1999, it went up 1129 in 2000, then it dropped again to 985 in 2011, now it is up to 1009 in 2012.

As I stated, the data show that the murder rate dropped 40% between 1992 and 2012.

K.



Nope overall drop was 2.16% and the number of murders is going up. FYI as I stated the number of murders in Florida in 1987 1371, the following year after the gun law came into effect, the number of murders 1416, the decline, lower then 1371 did not happen until 1991 when the number of murders was 1248.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 391
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 10/10/2013 2:38:18 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

As I stated, the data show that the murder rate dropped 40% between 1992 and 2012.

Nope overall drop was 2.16% and the number of murders is going up.


Do you know what the word "rate" means?

K.

(in reply to Nosathro)
Profile   Post #: 392
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 10/10/2013 2:45:10 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:


Somewhat away from this: I'm beginning to wonder if there's something at the bottom of this control/non-control debate to do with what I think is an individual versus a social view. That is: those who argue for strict gun control and have it in their own country do so from a social basis. They ask, 'What's best for society as a whole?' But when I read the views of gun-supporters in the USA, their arguments seem much more to be about 'What if I were faced by X or Y sort of aggressor, with X or Y level of power to harm me?'. Well, a thought I shall chew on, anyway.


quote:

Well duh. Are you just figuring out that we have different cultures? Surely that's been said before. Surely it's been obvious? Individual rights, our rights as persons, are at the center of both our culture and our Constitution. But we don't see it as a self-centered "I" as you portray it, we see it as what if any of us as individuals were faced by an aggressor.


Jesus, K, I really wish that defensiveness followed by sarcasm wasn't such a knee-jerk response from you. When I say 'I' I do mean 'I' - as though I, Peon, were a US citizen. It's generally taken as more polite than talking of 'you'. Yes, of course, I meant 'individuals faced by an aggressor'. Of course most people are self-centred to some degree and socially-centred to another degree. But how these tendencies are reflected in our respective countries and the way certain issues are treated - that's what I'm getting at.

quote:


Absent mental defect or criminal cause, who has the right to deny to a person the means to defend himself? And by what right? The vote of three wolves and a sheep on what's for lunch? I don't think so. Our rights are not so easily rendered subject to the tyranny of a majority, or a fashion of the age. And we do not intend them ever to become so.


I live in a country in which millions of young men were slaughtered in WW1, while the rest came home having learned to shoot and to kill. At the same time, they came home to a bitterly impoverished country. News of the Russian Revolution had reached most ears at a time when people had good cause - perhaps the best cause ever, in British history - to feel exploited, even to the point of death. Yet they still gave up their arms with little resistance after the 1920 Firearms Act here. Certainly there was fear of unrest amongst the elites and this was no doubt a factor behind that Act. Yet people had just had too much firearm-related ugliness, in too condensed a dose. Guns and what they do are just fucking ugly things, K. We have little or no desire to go down that road again.



< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 10/10/2013 2:46:53 PM >

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(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 393
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 10/10/2013 2:50:23 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:


'What if I were faced by X or Y sort of aggressor, with X or Y level of power to harm me?'. Well, a thought I shall chew on, anyway.


Jesus, K, I really wish that defensiveness followed by sarcasm wasn't such a knee-jerk response from you. When I say 'I' I do mean 'I' - as though I, Peon, were a US citizen. It's generally taken as more polite than talking of 'you'. Yes, of course, I meant 'individuals faced by an aggressor'.

Look to yourself then. You bolded the first "I" in that quote, and conspicuously not the one after that.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 10/10/2013 3:03:04 PM >

(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 394
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 10/10/2013 2:53:08 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline 		Well, you got me there, K. Another moral victory to you.

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Profile   Post #: 395
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 10/10/2013 2:55:51 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Well, you got me there, K. Another moral victory to you.

Ohferchrissake.

K.

(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 396
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 10/10/2013 2:59:02 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Ohferchrissake.



Stop being common. I hate it when Americans speak in nasty slang.

"conspiculously"??? Are you drunk? It's nearly 11 pm here. I have a right to be sozzled. You're five hours earlier - you do not!

ETA: You and your ETAs, chuckle, chortle.

< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 10/10/2013 3:05:37 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 397
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 10/10/2013 3:05:18 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

"conspiculously"??? Are you drunk? It's nearly 11 pm here. I have a right to be sozzled. You're five hours earlier - you do not!

Ouch, thanks. Got to it before the edit clock ran out! I owe you one. What do you drink?

p.s., Just to add to your pain (we're friends after all) I'm retired. I can be sozzled any damn time I please. And there's a screened swimming pool right outside the door. Take that, you Limey.

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 10/10/2013 3:07:53 PM >

(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 398
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 10/10/2013 3:07:48 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline 		Whisky. I've just finished a bottle of wine, but I could *really* do with a bottle of Scotch right now. Arguments with female friends. Argumentative female friends should be shot. *Oops*.

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(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 399
RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to ... - 10/10/2013 3:12:42 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Whisky. I've just finished a bottle of wine, but I could *really* do with a bottle of Scotch right now. Arguments with female friends. Argumentative female friends should be shot. *Oops*.

Well I can do you some Scotch. Have a favorite? But I'm going to insist that you try a sip of Gentleman Jack Tennessee Sour Mash (they can't call it Bourbon because Kentucky would declare war). I don't know how you feel about ice, but I consider it blasphemy and refuse to serve it. I can be cajoled into pouring over iced rocks, but only against my better judgment.

K.



< Message edited by Kirata -- 10/10/2013 3:28:22 PM >

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