Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? (Full Version)

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SerWhiteTiger -> Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? (10/2/2013 11:11:18 PM)

To be a Master, one must be in control of oneself. If one is in control of oneself, one should be able to submit to another if one wishes. If one cannot submit to another, how can one ever be a Master? It seems to me that perhaps one must submit at some point on the journey to being a Master.

But I do not think I can. Domly Doms consider that a badge of honor. Is it actually a flaw?



LadyPact -> RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? (10/3/2013 12:46:01 AM)

I don't mean you any offense, but I've heard this and other versions of the 'you must submit first' lines for a good few years. I don't buy it any more now than I did in My first year as a Domme and I don't think that's going to change any time soon.

The other side of this debate is, to be a Master, must I not have integrity in being true to Myself? To say I must submit first implies that I would have to live a lie. Where is the mastery in that? All that would serve to do is show that I have some acting ability. I could pretend to be somebody that I'm not. Great. That proves that I can fool people into thinking that I'm somebody else.

I have this running gag going about how someday I'm going to write a comedy book. I intend to title it "A Thousand Reasons Why I'm Not Submissive." I happen to thinks it's funny but there's a lot of truth in it.



SerWhiteTiger -> RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? (10/3/2013 12:56:02 AM)

But that's exactly my point. I believe that I can only fake submission, which means that if try to serve as a submissive, I'm living a lie. But if I can't make myself submit, then I am not truly dominant over myself.



SerWhiteTiger -> RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? (10/3/2013 12:57:46 AM)

Or maybe the fact that I actually understand this despite not having done it is somehow enough in its own weird way?



LadyPact -> RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? (10/3/2013 1:11:14 AM)

I think we might be misunderstanding each other.

I don't think it's a matter of can you? How about the angle of do you really want to?

I happen to be a zero on the Kinsey scale. Could I "make" Myself live as a lesbian? Sure. I could go through all of those motions. It wouldn't change the fact that I'm a straight chick. I'd learn a lot from the LGBT community, but I wouldn't especially be fulfilled. I would always have a part of Me that knew I wasn't being My most authentic self. That alone would make Me unhappy.





SerWhiteTiger -> RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? (10/3/2013 1:19:08 AM)

I want to learn everything I can about how my submissives and slaves feel in order to be the best Master I can be for them. So, yes, I do want to, but at the same time, I also don't. I like using the Kinsey scale for d/s as well, and I'm definitely at the Dom extreme of 7. But maybe only a 6 can be a Master?



LadyPact -> RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? (10/3/2013 1:38:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SerWhiteTiger
I want to learn everything I can about how my submissives and slaves feel in order to be the best Master I can be for them. So, yes, I do want to, but at the same time, I also don't.

It's a noble aspiration. It's just not one that I believe in.

I'm sure you know the old adage about having a toy tried out on you so that you will know what it "feels" like to the receiver. You can feel a certain sensation, but it's not really what they feel. What I feel when I get struck with the whip isn't going to process the same way as the whip feels to the masochist and I'm not going to feel the same kind of servitude who takes the lash out of a sincere desire to please. I'm not saying it's a pointless exercise, but it's not going to be entirely accurate.

I think, if your heart is in it, you could explore some great things. We might be different because I know it's just not in Me. If you do choose to try submission, I'd be very interested in hearing your perspective.

quote:

I like using the Kinsey scale for d/s as well, and I'm definitely at the Dom extreme of 7. But maybe only a 6 can be a Master?

Sorry, I don't believe in that either, any more than I believe in the concept of 110%.




lilcracker -> RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? (10/3/2013 2:20:06 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SerWhiteTiger

To be a Master, one must be in control of oneself. If one is in control of oneself, one should be able to submit to another if one wishes. If one cannot submit to another, how can one ever be a Master? It seems to me that perhaps one must submit at some point on the journey to being a Master.

But I do not think I can. Domly Doms consider that a badge of honor. Is it actually a flaw?

I think everyone no matter what side of the kneel must submit or be in control in some capacity.



immoral -> RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? (10/3/2013 2:57:25 AM)

we have this old fashioned thing called communication in O/our dynamic.
Master asks me how I feel.....then He knows...shrugs....simple but it works.[:D]



kiwisub12 -> RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? (10/3/2013 4:19:35 AM)

I think the argument of saying that you have to experience something to be able to appreciate it or understand it is like saying that you have to receive anal to be able to do it. It doesn't make sense. If my surgeon hasn't ever had surgery, does that mean that him having surgery makes him a better surgeon? I don't think so.

And the two dominants/tops I have known intimately have never had any desire to submit. So , for them, bottoming wouldn't give them any insights at all. In fact, if you think about it, bottoming when not wanting to is a violation of their integrity as a person. I wouldn't even call it submitting, because they aren't. Its more bottoming since it isn't who they are, its more of acting a scene. Role playing if you will = and while its fun, there isn't a learning situation there.



Greta75 -> RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? (10/3/2013 4:28:07 AM)

I definitely don't need a master who has experienced being a sub.



ChatteParfaitt -> RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? (10/3/2013 4:51:13 AM)

Way back in the day, before the internet made what we do mainstream, experiencing the submissive side was considered an important step to becoming a master. To the point that those who called themselves master and hadn't experienced being sub were considered posers.

I'm thinking this was a leather thing, but I'm not sure on that as my intro occurred not through the leather culture but through the gay culture in NO (French Quarter). Back in the early seventies the FQ had a major gay, orgy and S&M scene going, and it's a small enough place it was all the same scene.

So my exposure was primarily to those I would consider kinksters as opposed to leather people. But there were leather people on the fringes and they held the holy grail as far as S&M went. At that time it was a super secretive lifestyle, and since I was one of the kinksters, I wasn't a part of their culture.

I thought they were far too formal to be of interest to me.

So perhaps someone else can chime on if this was a leather thing.

In any case, I think serving as a submissive is an important step for anyone wishing to be a master or mistress. To me those titles imply a level of competence far beyond the average dominant.

The rationale was not that a dominant should learn to enjoy being a sub, but that he/she should have enough humility and desire to learn that they would be willing to subject themselves to another's dominance.

There used to be someone who posted here, I think her nick was Cala, who had an old style 'house' that incorporated this type of training for those wishing to be a master/mistress. She hasn't posted here in a few years, and that was the last I've heard of this type of training requirement. But my understanding is that it did used to be very common.




JeffBC -> RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? (10/3/2013 5:02:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SerWhiteTiger
But I do not think I can. Domly Doms consider that a badge of honor. Is it actually a flaw?

*chuckles* Some days I despair of ever knowing what the words "dominance" and "submission" mean in the BDSM context. I can't really address your larger question. I can speak to this part though...

I want to learn everything I can about how my submissives and slaves feel in order to be the best Master I can be for them.

You cannot learn about someone else by pretending to be them. Either you can empathize with them or you cannot. This can only be done on an individual basis. For instance, I can empathize with OsideGirl, whom I've never met, readily. Carol, who I've been married to for a while now remains, at best, a muddy and flawed view.



SweetAnise -> RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? (10/3/2013 5:23:08 AM)

To the OP, I find nothing wrong that a dominant wants to understand submission by submitting to another. I wish more did. There are far to many dominants who have no idea what being a dominant is and you can find their bread crumb trail by looking at all the damaged submissives they leave behind ( not saying subs don't have their own issues). Anyway, does it make you well-rounded? Multidimensional? Yes and maybe. But I do believe it is something for every person to decide for themselves. I say do it. I know I did it and it really helped me understand the submissive a whole lot better.



leonine -> RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? (10/3/2013 5:26:03 AM)

It's easy for me to agree, because I'm a natural switch, though with a heavy bias to Dom. However, even so, I learnt a lot from the few times I've subbed. I don't think I would have anywhere near as good an idea where my subs' heads are if I'd never been there myself.

But for those who say that, since they don't have a submissive bone in their body, it would be a meaningless charade: do you think subs never have to push themselves into it out of loyalty to their Owner? I learnt as much from the scenes that didn't work, when I was just gritting my teeth and bearing it to please my partner, as from the ones where I was swept away with the joy of surrender.

But I can understand Greta's response. When I owned a slave I quickly learnt never to mention my switching experiences. The idea of her Master submitting to anyone made her feel the ground was shaking under her feet.



kalikshama -> RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? (10/3/2013 5:37:02 AM)

quote:

It seems to me that perhaps one must submit at some point on the journey to being a Master.

But I do not think I can.


Don't you have a boss at work you submit to?

I've known plenty of Doms who were self-employed...but they are still answerable to their customers.



KnightofMists -> RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? (10/3/2013 5:38:07 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SerWhiteTiger

To be a Master, one must be in control of oneself. If one is in control of oneself, one should be able to submit to another if one wishes. If one cannot submit to another, how can one ever be a Master? It seems to me that perhaps one must submit at some point on the journey to being a Master.

But I do not think I can. Domly Doms consider that a badge of honor. Is it actually a flaw?


Well..... Believe what you want... I am not a Master of my three girls because of how others think it should work. I am Master my three girls because I walk my path that they wish to walk with me on.



JeffBC -> RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? (10/3/2013 5:45:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
I am not a Master of my three girls because of how others think it should work. I am Master my three girls because I walk my path that they wish to walk with me on.

Yeah, but what would YOU know about the topic? *grin*

More seriously, nominated for Sunny Quote of the Day.



MissImmortalPain -> RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? (10/3/2013 5:54:04 AM)

I may only end up echoing what Jeff just said but as someone that started out on the sub side I have to agree that the action will not give you insight as to what a sub really feels. When I subbed and from time to time now if I switch the only thing I feel like is that I am acting. More role play than D/s. Playing out the pain or saying all the right things does not mean that they are actually submitting. I can very sweetly say the word daddy, cry on que, and even kneel (which is not easy for an amputee) but it does not mean I feel what a sub feels when they give into their dominant. And every one of either side should know what I mean by that. Dominants have seen ""the look. Subs have felt their bodies and minds drop, float, let go, whatever you want to call it. To say nothing of the fact that very few would ask a sub to go dominant someone to prove that they know what it means to really submit.
The way I see it is there are some who are meant to kneel and some who are meant to stand. And though there are some that can do both it is rare that they really understand how either feels.



sunshinemiss -> RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? (10/3/2013 6:11:05 AM)

You know... I am often in charge. In my job I certainly am. I dominate the room. That's my role. But do I *feel* what a leader feels? No. I don't enjoy being in charge. I prefer it to chaos though. I don't want to be in charge, but in the absence of a leader, I will be. I don't slip into a leadership roll because my personality demands it but because the situation does. i prefer following a competent leader. if there isn't one, I will be it. I think there is an art to leading, and I don't have it. I have the *SKILL* to be able to do - a bunch of tools at my disposal. But is it natural for me? No.

I think the OP's question is relatively similar - mirror image, but similar.

best,
sunshine



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