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Who gets to decide? - 10/8/2013 1:29:06 PM   
AdorkableAiley


Posts: 920
Joined: 9/12/2011
Status: offline 		First off, I'm bbbbbbbbaaaaaaaacccccccckkkkkkk

Okay in another thread the subject of labeling came up and I know this has been hashed out and re hashed out dozens of times here, but I’m bored and I’d like to see what people have to say about this now.

Sooooo…

The debate I was getting into on the other thread was this, who decides on someone’s label? The person or the community? Do other people tell you what you are or do you get to tell them?

See now I always thought the meanings of these labels were rather subjective and was not a one size fits all kind of box. I feel that a person should choose their own label, one that they feel comfortable wearing and that it isn’t up to anyone else to decide if they are weal or twue (though plenty of judgment goes on.)

What say you?

Ailey the inquisitive
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RE: Who gets to decide? - 10/8/2013 1:35:06 PM   
angelikaJ


Posts: 8641
Joined: 6/22/2007
Status: offline 		In my opinion, you are right: the person or the people within the context of their own relationship decides how they wish to self-identify.


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RE: Who gets to decide? - 10/8/2013 1:38:24 PM   
kalikshama


Posts: 14805
Joined: 8/8/2010
Status: offline 		ResidentSadist made some good posts about labels recently but I can't find them :(

One of them was a story about gazelles and lions.

ps - welcome back!

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RE: Who gets to decide? - 10/8/2013 1:42:40 PM   
AdorkableAiley


Posts: 920
Joined: 9/12/2011
Status: offline 		Thanks for the welcome back :) it's nice to be back.

I'd kind of like to hear the story about the gazelles and lions... Oh ResidentSadist... tell me a story!



Ailey

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RE: Who gets to decide? - 10/8/2013 2:04:34 PM   
lilcracker


Posts: 243
Joined: 4/14/2012
Status: offline 		The debate I was getting into on the other thread was this, who decides on someone’s label? The person or the community? For me, I decide, it would be probably pretty rare for the community to decide something for me...except here on collar me, I need to pick a label and I have to go with the options they have. Do other people tell you what you are or do you get to tell them? Other people can label me if they decide, I have been labeled a fake more than once but...pffffttt...and nope I don't tell anyone else what they are

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RE: Who gets to decide? - 10/8/2013 2:11:38 PM   
TigressLily


Posts: 436
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Here's one on The Difference Between a sub and a slave http://www.collarchat.com/m_4548494/tm.htm

Then there's TPE-M/s Relationships http://www.collarchat.com/m_4549640/tm.htm

Both of these are still active topics. ResidentSadist's post being referred to is more than likely contained in the former.

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RE: Who gets to decide? - 10/8/2013 2:14:11 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		Funny. I couldn't find that post from RS, either. I thought it was pretty good.

People get to define themselves the way that they want, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the community is going to agree with that definition. I think it's also going to depend on which "community" that people are talking about. I find more often that the supposed "online community" is more likely to agree with any self imposed label that a person gives themselves. The "I'm a brand new Master with no experience" is more likely to get a pass on certain message boards. The same person walking into a leather event with the same proclamation isn't going to have the same kind of agreement with that statement. I've seen similar reactions happen on the Gorean forum when a male posts that he is a brand new Master, but he's never read a book.

Even in the mix that is the real life BDSM community, somebody coming to their first event, declaring their brand new Master status, but has no experience doesn't really go over very well. They do get welcomed, but there is also some eye rolling and whispers of "oh, great, another one who thinks they know what they are doing because they read stuff on the internet."


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RE: Who gets to decide? - 10/8/2013 2:20:18 PM   
poise


Posts: 9509
Joined: 7/3/2010
Status: offline 		This may be the post by ResidentSadist being referred to.




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RE: Who gets to decide? - 10/8/2013 2:38:28 PM   
fucktoyprincess


Posts: 2337
Status: offline 		I think self-definition requires some knowledge, of both BDSM, and of oneself. So I think it is safe to say, as others have pointed out, that someone who is absolutely brand new to this world, completely lacking in experience, may not yet have sufficient information about either the lifestyle or themselves to "properly" categorize themselves. So I think people are free to "label" themselves however they want, but unless someone is actually quite experienced, I am ALWAYS going to take their self-labeling with a grain of salt. But I do feel that people who are genuinely involved in this world do eventually arrive at a "label" that captures their essence and allows them to give others, who are also genuinely involved in this world, a shorthand into who they are. I would also say that people are allowed to self-label, and to have that self-label evolve over time as they gain experience.

Do people mis-label themselves sometimes? Do people allow others to incorrectly influence their self-label (like a gazelle who believes they are a lion)? Probably. But I would think some discussion with people would bring out the nuance. In other words, one's self-label is only a starting point for discussion around who one really is. There is no way any "label" can describe any individual fully and completely - no label in BDSM is that encompassing, and at the end of the day they are just words. One has to get to know the human being behind the words. "Submissive" does NOT have one fixed meaning. My use of the label is only meant as a starting point. Obviously, it would be a mistake for anyone to think they knew everything about my BDSM experiences and interests from that one label.

Then there is the self-labeled "Dominant Man" who knows nothing of BDSM, has no interest in BDSM and is simply trolling for sex. Obviously this is not a self-label that anyone in the community can treat with any respect. Thankfully, those types are generally readily distinguishable from the genuine neophytes....

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RE: Who gets to decide? - 10/8/2013 2:56:10 PM   
kalikshama


Posts: 14805
Joined: 8/8/2010
Status: offline 		Thanks poise! That was one of them. Here's the others, thanks to TigressLily:

http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4554660

Labels do matter, otherwise we cannot communicate with each other. You picked a gender label for yourself when you joined CollarMe and you can see where honesty about your gender is important to those with gender preferences. So it is the same with D-types that have submissive or slave preferences for their relationship style. The one thing that is generally agreed upon is that submission and slavehood are not connected or comparable. They are different. One does not lead to another, neither of them is on the path to the other. Nor are they measurable against each other in that one is more or less than the other.

http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4554967

Sometimes things are exclusive. Either labels matter or they don't. And I call bullshit on you for sitting on the fence and agreeing with both sides. That's a crock. If we don't define, discuss or argue about a label's meaning, it has no definition and it isn't really a label is it? If I pick up a can of tomato soup and there is chicken soup inside, what was the point of having a label? So pick a side if your really you do agree that labels matter, how can you not agree that their definitions don't matter? I spoke on this topic before:

-=Letter=-

Dear anti-label coalition:

The recurrent sub/slave definition requests from newcomers always seem to rally your anti-label coalition and you say there are no real definitions instead of helping define the language and terms we do use in our lifestyle. Shame on you.

You preach that we should all meet with open hearts and open minds and not label ourselves at all. You are hypocrites because you gender label yourself as male, female or transsexual as well as listing your sexual relationship preferences as gay, straight or otherwise in order communicate who you are. Why should we stop there . . . because you do? Why not use the commonly accepted roles and definitions created by the needs of BDSM community to define ourselves like sub/slave/bottom/switch/Master/Dom/Top. I can’t believe you spread misinformation to newcomers about the lack meanings or definitions for common BDSM terms in relationship roles. Shame on you.

I know why you label your sexual preferences, because it is dangerous not to. I learned that lesson well in my youth because I grew up in the gay/pansexual community. Shemales (drag queens) were called women and lived life in that role. More than one fem fatale found herself beaten or worse because she (he) didn’t label herself properly to their prospective new lover or client. When the nut sack was discovered, they were beaten and some were even killed.

These poor young new shemales weren’t warned. They were insulated from the straight world and had their heads fluffed with things like “labels don’t matter” or they got role reinforcement like “you’re a real woman” like in my gazelle parable (see below). On behalf of all my young shemale friends that suffered and all the BDSM newcomers here on collarme that ask for definitions and will suffer at the hands of your lies and misinformation, I say you are dangerous! Shame on you.

My attitude that you are dangerous in your deceptions about labels being meaningless applies even though a slave or submissive may not end up dead from mislabeling or a lack of, they will suffer even though others in our broad pansexual kink family have found incorrect information fatal. Labels and definitions for our roles are good, use them well and let them define your base not confine your reach. Shame on those that claim they have no meaning or don’t apply!

Sincerely,
Kalon Eric

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RE: Who gets to decide? - 10/8/2013 3:14:11 PM   
kiwisub12


Posts: 4742
Joined: 1/11/2006
Status: offline 		I decide my own label. And hopefully my label is the ying to the yang that I am seeking - because if it isn't then my search may take a very long time to come to fruition.

I can call myself anything I want, but if there is no basis in reality, then no-one else is going to take my labeling at face value. If I call myself a gay male, and I don't have a penis, then i'm not doing myself any good. If I call myself a slave and baulk at orders, then I would have a hard time to make the case that i'm a slave. Or at least, a good slave.

If I call myself a masochist and I love a good flogging then I've shown that my label is on target. Because in the end. a label is a way of describing myself to someone else. If it isn't accurate, then it isn't doing its job.

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RE: Who gets to decide? - 10/8/2013 3:25:11 PM   
kiwisub12


Posts: 4742
Joined: 1/11/2006
Status: offline 		double post, sorry.


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RE: Who gets to decide? - 10/8/2013 3:43:26 PM   
CynthiaWVirginia


Posts: 1915
Joined: 2/28/2010
From: West Virginia, USA
Status: offline 		Welcome back.

Well, I see it this way. I'm not leather. I'm not Gorean. These other groups I don't belong to...their standards are really not my concern.

Another story to go along with the lions and gazelles...

Two cavemen worlds apart invents the wheel. Eventually each society evolves and goes out into space...(or on the internet)...and finally meet. One leather caveman says, "We invented the wheel first. You have to learn our secret knock code and earn our decoder ring if you're going to use the wheel in any way, shape or form, okay? Your wheel sizes are not labeled correctly, here, use our standard tape measure because you're doing it all wrong."

Former cave dude from the non-aligned world says, "No thanks. We've invented the wheel just fine without your help. If your size and shape labels work for you, that's great. We prefer how WE handle our own wheels...and btw, our planetary system spins around just fine too, so...thanks for your offer to fix us but we're doing fine on our own."

One last two cents.
There have been many nations and cultures that had their own idea of how to treat their servants and how to own slaves. One might see another's slaves as...servants instead of slaves. (In some areas, slaves could not own property while in others they could, etc.) I like hearing from folks from different consensual slave cultures, online and in person, and about the differences as well as what we have in common.

Also, I like labels, but their definitions sometimes have to be interpreted by which planet they're from.

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RE: Who gets to decide? - 10/8/2013 3:54:43 PM   
stef


Posts: 10215
Joined: 1/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AdorkableAiley

The debate I was getting into on the other thread was this, who decides on someone’s label?

I do. So do you. So does everyone else.

The question that matters is; whose opinions matter to you?

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RE: Who gets to decide? - 10/8/2013 4:03:46 PM   
AdorkableAiley


Posts: 920
Joined: 9/12/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: stef

quote:

ORIGINAL: AdorkableAiley

The debate I was getting into on the other thread was this, who decides on someone’s label?

I do. So do you. So does everyone else.

The question that matters is; whose opinions matter to you?


Good point!


Ailey

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RE: Who gets to decide? - 10/8/2013 5:19:43 PM   
frazzle


Posts: 1212
Joined: 6/20/2009
Status: offline 		I'm in the, who cares what other people think camp. My relationships are mine. what others think about them. or label them as , is irrelevant.

Ok I don't do the public, munches type stuff. But even if I did, I use my own judgement not others.

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RE: Who gets to decide? - 10/8/2013 5:23:37 PM   
Kana


Posts: 6676
Joined: 10/24/2006
Status: offline 		I let her make the labels.She calls me Master and when the time was right, she asked to be my slave.
But really,I could give a damn about labels (Except things like Mine,Owned,Property), I care only about dynamic

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RE: Who gets to decide? - 10/8/2013 5:29:33 PM   
frazzle


Posts: 1212
Joined: 6/20/2009
Status: offline 		Your relationship is yours. what other people think doesn't matter.

Hell I read your posts and cringe at best, scream at worst. but it suits both of you. Would I recommend it. Hell no.lol

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RE: Who gets to decide? - 10/8/2013 5:50:45 PM   
fucktoyprincess


Posts: 2337
Status: offline 		Thanks for posting ResidentSadist's posts on labels. I do have to agree that labels matter initially as we try to find others who might be a match. I am at a loss for how I would meet people on a site like this without any labels at all.

Even when I've been in public situations, while there are certain things that are obvious about me when one meets me live, even then, how would someone necessarily know about my fetish interests unless I identified them? And for me, some of these interests are best defined with so-called "labels".

I also understand why labels as much less important within the context of an existing relationship. In other words, for me, personally, the labels matter much more for the search. Once those labels have allowed me to identify someone to have a relationship with, obviously that is different territory, and I'm not sure the labels matter as much. That seems pretty obvious.

But I am curious as to how people find kindred and complementary mates without any labels at all......how does that work exactly??

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RE: Who gets to decide? - 10/8/2013 5:52:24 PM   
Kana


Posts: 6676
Joined: 10/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: frazzle

Your relationship is yours. what other people think doesn't matter.

Hell I read your posts and cringe at best, scream at worst. but it suits both of you. Would I recommend it. Hell no.lol

But why? I'm such a kind sweet considerate man

_____________________________

"One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die. "
HST

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