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RE: Who gets to decide? - 10/10/2013 8:32:52 AM

DesFIP

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SerWhiteTiger

It's worth noting that if you're a slave, your Master decides your labels.

It's worth noting that if we did not agree what the labels were, he wouldn't be my master.

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RE: Who gets to decide? - 10/10/2013 8:47:58 AM

SailingBum

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I for one didn't know the OP had left... but no worries the cartoon character is back.

BadOne

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RE: Who gets to decide? - 10/10/2013 9:00:12 AM

AdorkableAiley

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SailingBum

I for one didn't know the OP had left... but no worries the cartoon character is back.

BadOne

I didn't leave I am here and still reading, I just didn't have anything to add.

Ailey

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RE: Who gets to decide? - 10/10/2013 11:20:47 AM

SailingBum

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AdorkableAiley

First off, I'm bbbbbbbbaaaaaaaacccccccckkkkkkk

This

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RE: Who gets to decide? - 10/10/2013 12:16:29 PM

Spiritedsub2

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quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

I think self-definition requires some knowledge, of both BDSM, and of oneself. So I think it is safe to say, as others have pointed out, that someone who is absolutely brand new to this world, completely lacking in experience, may not yet have sufficient information about either the lifestyle or themselves to "properly" categorize themselves. So I think people are free to "label" themselves however they want, but unless someone is actually quite experienced, I am ALWAYS going to take their self-labeling with a grain of salt. But I do feel that people who are genuinely involved in this world do eventually arrive at a "label" that captures their essence and allows them to give others, who are also genuinely involved in this world, a shorthand into who they are. I would also say that people are allowed to self-label, and to have that self-label evolve over time as they gain experience.

Do people mis-label themselves sometimes? Do people allow others to incorrectly influence their self-label (like a gazelle who believes they are a lion)? Probably. But I would think some discussion with people would bring out the nuance. In other words, one's self-label is only a starting point for discussion around who one really is. There is no way any "label" can describe any individual fully and completely - no label in BDSM is that encompassing, and at the end of the day they are just words. One has to get to know the human being behind the words. "Submissive" does NOT have one fixed meaning. My use of the label is only meant as a starting point. Obviously, it would be a mistake for anyone to think they knew everything about my BDSM experiences and interests from that one label.

I agree with this ^. I was brand new a year ago and didn't know anything about bdsm or D/s, and a man with experience told me I am submissive. Then 2 other men with experience told me I am submissive. Further down the road I will decide more of that for myself, but initially I needed the "label" from them. I take their opinions seriously because I respect them, but because I "meet" so many I don't respect, I often find myself doubting the original diagnosis

. Maybe that is part of the process.

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RE: Who gets to decide? - 10/10/2013 12:18:09 PM

AdorkableAiley

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SailingBum

quote:

ORIGINAL: AdorkableAiley

First off, I'm bbbbbbbbaaaaaaaacccccccckkkkkkk

This

Oh I went AWOL for a while. Every now and then I just disappear for a while without warning, it just happens.

Ailey the disappearing

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RE: Who gets to decide? - 10/10/2013 2:11:38 PM

SerWhiteTiger

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

quote:

ORIGINAL: SerWhiteTiger

It's worth noting that if you're a slave, your Master decides your labels.

It's worth noting that if we did not agree what the labels were, he wouldn't be my master.

Yes, but then he changes his mind and you're a snow bunny.

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RE: Who gets to decide? - 10/11/2013 6:50:59 AM

AdorkableAiley

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SerWhiteTiger

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

quote:

ORIGINAL: SerWhiteTiger

It's worth noting that if you're a slave, your Master decides your labels.

It's worth noting that if we did not agree what the labels were, he wouldn't be my master.

Yes, but then he changes his mind and you're a snow bunny.

I have changed my own label several times, it really depends on who I am with and what they bring out in me. I was a slave at one point because the Master I was with brought out that level of submission in me. It has not happened since. I don't really have a label right now, but I wouldn't be cool with someone else trying to tell me what I am. I feel that has to be up to me to fit myself into a box if I should so choose.

Ailey

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RE: Who gets to decide? - 10/11/2013 7:25:30 AM

Rochsub2009

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quote:

I have changed my own label several times, it really depends on who I am with and what they bring out in me. I was a slave at one point because the Master I was with brought out that level of submission in me.

This is how it is for me as well. I self- define as "a sub with slave-like tendencies when in the right relationship".

I seldom label myself a "slave". Yet, one of my former Dommes always referred to me as her "24/7 slave". She said that I gave her a greater level of submission and obedience than she had ever gotten from a man before. But IMO, what she was actually responding to was the fact that I am a "service sub". So I would obey her commands to do things that had no sexual component. For example, I mowed her lawn, cleaned her house, raked her leaves, shoveled her snow, etc. That was a new experience for her. All of her previous subs had been bedroom-only. Frankly, I would have described them as "sexual bottoms", rather than subs. But she was the Domme, and she referred to them as her "part-time slaves", while I was her "24/7 slave".

Obviously, I wasn't going to argue with her about her terminology. Moreover, I saw no value in correcting her. As long as she was happy with my service, the words that she used to describe it were immaterial to me. But I know that there are some who believe I shoud have corrected her (even though that would have made me insubordinate in the eyes of some Doms/Dommes.

< Message edited by Rochsub2009 -- 10/11/2013 7:27:44 AM >

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RE: Who gets to decide? - 10/11/2013 10:29:19 AM

orgasmdenial12

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
Except that it isn't quite correct.

While a number of BDSM folks rail about how they "did just fine on their own," it's not really the case. It was the leather community that opened certain doors that the BDSM community benefited from. Whether that be fighting to open clubs, starting cons for educational opportunities, and even often leather folks who have started groups that have welcomed all kinky folks. MAsT most certainly has leather roots and wouldn't exist if it hadn't been started by leathermen.

Most people want to ignore it, but the leather community has contributed a lot to the BDSM community.

quote:

ORIGINAL: frazzle

That might work in the USA, but it doesn't in the UK.

Oh and BDSM has been here just as long.

Exactly. I'm sure the leather scene is all fine and good, but it doesn't define my sadomasochism - it doesn't even really exist in the UK, so I don't feel any need to let its labels or protocols define me. As frazzle said, we've had BDSM here for a long time - longer, in fact, than the US. Corporal punishment has long been known as 'the English vice'. I'm sure the leather community is a force for good BUT the thought that it can lay claim to being the one and only 'old school' or 'true way' is laughable. Go tell Masoch that leather is the one true way, I think he got there considerably earlier in the definition stakes (and his thing was more for fur).

As regards the OP's question - we get to define our own labels, and we get to deal with any confusion caused by mislabelling ourselves, and over time this teaches us to use a reasonable level of compromise between self and social definition. Ultimately, we can cry all we want about other people getting it 'wrong' - they're still going to pick their own labels no matter what we say, so self-labelling is the only realistic approach. Anything else is doomed to failure.

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RE: Who gets to decide? - 10/11/2013 12:25:06 PM

SailingBum

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quote:

ORIGINAL: orgasmdenial12

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
Except that it isn't quite correct.

While a number of BDSM folks rail about how they "did just fine on their own," it's not really the case. It was the leather community that opened certain doors that the BDSM community benefited from. Whether that be fighting to open clubs, starting cons for educational opportunities, and even often leather folks who have started groups that have welcomed all kinky folks. MAsT most certainly has leather roots and wouldn't exist if it hadn't been started by leathermen.

Most people want to ignore it, but the leather community has contributed a lot to the BDSM community.

quote:

ORIGINAL: frazzle

That might work in the USA, but it doesn't in the UK.

Oh and BDSM has been here just as long.

Exactly. I'm sure the leather scene is all fine and good, but it doesn't define my sadomasochism - it doesn't even really exist in the UK, so I don't feel any need to let its labels or protocols define me. As frazzle said, we've had BDSM here for a long time - longer, in fact, than the US. Corporal punishment has long been known as 'the English vice'. I'm sure the leather community is a force for good BUT the thought that it can lay claim to being the one and only 'old school' or 'true way' is laughable. Go tell Masoch that leather is the one true way, I think he got there considerably earlier in the definition stakes (and his thing was more for fur).

As regards the OP's question - we get to define our own labels, and we get to deal with any confusion caused by mislabelling ourselves, and over time this teaches us to use a reasonable level of compromise between self and social definition. Ultimately, we can cry all we want about other people getting it 'wrong' - they're still going to pick their own labels no matter what we say, so self-labelling is the only realistic approach. Anything else is doomed to failure.

I really don't know what LP is referring to. Way back in the day when I was hitting the BDSM clubs here in Metro D <we had 2 popular ones that I knew of>. No one even heard of the "leather community" So as far as leather folks "opening doors" That was just not the case in my tri state area MI,OH, IL. They may have been around but they <the leathers> sure were not "active players" in our BDSM scene.

Even today around here the leather community is not a factor in the BDSM equation.

BadOne

< Message edited by SailingBum -- 10/11/2013 12:39:21 PM >

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RE: Who gets to decide? - 10/11/2013 2:49:01 PM

sunshinemiss

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Sunny
Quote of the Day
goes to
stef
for

The question that matters is;
whose opinions matter to you?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_4561798/tm.htm

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RE: Who gets to decide? - 10/11/2013 3:29:35 PM

sunshinemiss

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In the Quaker community, there is a strong belief in pacifism. Followers - including children who are taught in Quaker schools are taught about peace and encouraged to seek it in themselves and in the world. It is a noble and good pursuit. It is an important lesson taught by the likes of Gandhi and Martin Luther King, Tolstoy, and recently brought to the fore by Malala Yousafzi (not Quakers). Teaching people the Quaker belief means finding the deepest good in people. It means loving the essence of the person beneath the fears and jealousies, anger and revenge that often pile on top of that deepest part of the person. It means believing, as Anne Franke wrote, "in spite of everything, I still believe that people are really good at heart.” Love can destroy in a single swipe what hatred has spent years to build.

Does this mean that Quakers are foolish enough to not teach their children and their newcomers about hatred and racism / sexism / ableism / homophobia / anti-Semitism? No. it means teaching them to look for and appeal to the deepest, most loving part in people. Yes, people are good in their very essence. Little babies are born perfect. Love is what we are made for.

Many Quakers will stand up for this belief. And many, many of them will also remind the newcomers and the children that just because *we* believe it, doesn't mean the rest of the world believes it or follows it. And so the question of "belief" becomes the question of "action". What ways can we DO love and belief in other people? Non-violent, political activism is a strong part of the Quaker tradition. And so, to fight the hatred and racism / sexism / ableism / homophobia / anti-Semitism, many Quakers will become politically active at the local level and more. It is a way to make manifest the belief that is held dear to a Quaker's heart.

So, a legion of good people believe in non-violence and work at making the world a better place. But this does not stop individuals from also teaching people HOW to fight if that is the choice they make. This does not stop them from reminding people that ugliness and hatred and rage and fear are powerful motivators and can destroy in a single swipe what love has built over many years.

In the end, the label itself is not important. Reality is. What others choose to call themselves is their choice. It is just a word. But when the word can be attached to action, when a concept can have real-life, physical consequences - even dangerous consequences - is it not our duty to educate and support those who can not or do not see the other side of the same coin? You want to call yourself a 'slave', there are consequences for that. Others will think A, B, and C about that. Be prepared to handle the fallout. You want to call yourself a 'slut', there are certain things others will think about you, and their thoughts will lead their behavior toward you. Be prepared to handle that. You want to label yourself 'master', others will have certain expectations and place them upon you. Be prepared to handle that.

Yes, you can call yourself anything you want. You know more about you than I do. But I will have my own responses to that based on who I am, my expectations, and my experiences. And so will everyone else. Be prepared for that.

best,
sunshine

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RE: Who gets to decide? - 10/11/2013 5:50:44 PM

MalcolmNathaniel

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Sunshine that was a very round-about way of getting at your point. That's not necessarily a bad thing, just noticeable.

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RE: Who gets to decide? - 10/11/2013 5:55:03 PM

Villain4Damsel

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I think labels and identities are self determined. Titles are frequently given with in a community, but also with-in families and tribes.

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RE: Who gets to decide? - 10/11/2013 9:04:53 PM

SerWhiteTiger

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AdorkableAiley

quote:

ORIGINAL: SerWhiteTiger

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

quote:

ORIGINAL: SerWhiteTiger

It's worth noting that if you're a slave, your Master decides your labels.

It's worth noting that if we did not agree what the labels were, he wouldn't be my master.

Yes, but then he changes his mind and you're a snow bunny.

I have changed my own label several times, it really depends on who I am with and what they bring out in me. I was a slave at one point because the Master I was with brought out that level of submission in me. It has not happened since. I don't really have a label right now, but I wouldn't be cool with someone else trying to tell me what I am. I feel that has to be up to me to fit myself into a box if I should so choose.

Ailey

And you shouldn't be cool with it. But if you're a slave, and your Master says to...

This is the difficulty I have with the casual way some people use the word "slave" on this forum and this whole idea that people can choose their label. My slave chose me for her Master because she knows I would never do something like that to her, but in choosing to be my slave, she has given me that power all the same. To me, that's what being a slave is. That why it's called being a slave rather than a servant. I have the power to give her whatever label I feel like, and she will accept it. And if I went too far and crossed over the line, it wouldn't simply be a matter of her then choosing to disobey or to not be my slave anymore. It would break her. That, to me, is what a Master/slave relationship is. She has given me absolute power to do absolutely anything I want to her because she trusts me enough to know that I never actually would do anything to break her or that I can at least pick up the pieces and put her back together.

Slave, to me, is just as black and white a label as being gay. The problem is that people tell themselves that people aren't "really" slaves and that it's just role-playing, so they think it's okay to appropriate the term for their own usage.

< Message edited by SerWhiteTiger -- 10/11/2013 9:06:42 PM >

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RE: Who gets to decide? - 10/11/2013 9:14:03 PM

SerWhiteTiger

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As an example, a while back, I gave my slave a slave name. She did not like the name I had given her and let me know, which is good, because I do want the best information I can have from her when it comes to making decisions, but I decided to go with it anyway, and she obeyed. Because she is my slave, and that's what a slave is. Over time, however, it became clear that as much as she wanted to please her Master, the name just didn't resonate with her, and since I am a good and loving Master, I decided to choose a new slave name for her that she could more easily embrace.

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RE: Who gets to decide? - 10/11/2013 9:56:51 PM

sunshinemiss

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MalcolmNathaniel

Sunshine that was a very round-about way of getting at your point. That's not necessarily a bad thing, just noticeable.

I am writing a lot of academic papers these days and was also thinking about how my spirituality is in opposition in some ways to my life beliefs. I am fascinated by the ability of people to hold two opposite views...

and you know, I'm an attention whore. ;)

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RE: Who gets to decide? - 10/11/2013 10:24:09 PM

Toysinbabeland

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You can label a can of peas anything you want to, but when you open that can of peas it's still going to be a can of peas.
It may not know what it is, or it may.
In the end it's still a can of peas.

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RE: Who gets to decide? - 10/12/2013 1:51:36 AM

LadyPact

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SailingBum
I really don't know what LP is referring to. Way back in the day when I was hitting the BDSM clubs here in Metro D <we had 2 popular ones that I knew of>. No one even heard of the "leather community" So as far as leather folks "opening doors" That was just not the case in my tri state area MI,OH, IL. They may have been around but they <the leathers> sure were not "active players" in our BDSM scene.

Even today around here the leather community is not a factor in the BDSM equation.

BadOne

Touche, (Chicago) celebrated it's 34'th year at it's last anniversary. Home to the Mr Chicago Leather contest, it details it's history on the home page.

The R&R Saloon (Detroit) has been in operation since 1977 and lists twenty-five associates in leather. The R&R proudly names itself as the home of the Mr Michigan Leather contest.

The International Mr Leather contest is held in Chicago.

The Leather Archives and Museum (Chicago) has over forty years of memorabilia from documentation from the leather community.

Michigan, Ohio, and Illinois (respective regions) all sent representatives to the International Master/slave contest in the past year.

"The Leatherman's Handbook" was first published in 1972.

Two long term members of this board got their start in the leather community in Michigan over thirty years ago.

I'd say those kind of things factor into the equation.

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