quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: deathtothepixies

where are memories stored if not in the brain?

I don't even have a theory, let alone an answer. But when people report an out of body experience characterized by lucid consciousness, and can recount verifiable observations of events occurring during the period when they were in a state of induced cardiac arrest -- when even the most basic brain stem reflexes are unresponsive and there is no evidence of any brain activity sufficient to support conscious awareness or memory -- the question arises of how they could remember those experiences if memories were (only) stored in the brain.

K.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

All that aside, it is probable that ethical constraints will make it impossible to the gather evidence likely to be acceptable. And even if by some chance the the requisite biological and physical evidence becomes available, there’s no reason to suppose that it would lead to a complete understanding. For example we have comprehensive descriptions of the chemistry and physiology of sexual arousal but that doesn’t give us any real insight into what an orgasm is does it?

Orgasms, like thoughts, are products of our biology so their character is subject to both external and internal influences which differ for each individual. Orgasms are subject to physical measurement, i.e. strength, duration, etc. What we are not privy to is the subjective emotions experienced by the individual at that singular time. I said previously in this thread if I recall that consciousness is the 'hard' question. Research continues on how the brain translates electrochemical signals into subjective experience. Neuroscience may have to eventually accept that our inner life is simply emergent from our electrochemistry. I am content with that. [....]
We were discussing your OBE or 'soaring' experience. There is no issue between us if you mean that to be part of your subjective experience.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

All that aside, it is probable that ethical constraints will make it impossible to the gather evidence likely to be acceptable. And even if by some chance the the requisite biological and physical evidence becomes available, there’s no reason to suppose that it would lead to a complete understanding. For example we have comprehensive descriptions of the chemistry and physiology of sexual arousal but that doesn’t give us any real insight into what an orgasm is does it?

Orgasms, like thoughts, are products of our biology so their character is subject to both external and internal influences which differ for each individual. Orgasms are subject to physical measurement, i.e. strength, duration, etc. What we are not privy to is the subjective emotions experienced by the individual at that singular time. I said previously in this thread if I recall that consciousness is the 'hard' question. Research continues on how the brain translates electrochemical signals into subjective experience. Neuroscience may have to eventually accept that our inner life is simply emergent from our electrochemistry. I am content with that. [....]
We were discussing your OBE or 'soaring' experience. There is no issue between us if you mean that to be part of your subjective experience.

How can an OBE be anything but a personal experience? How can any personal account of an OBE be anything but a person's subjective interpretation of their experience? For my part, I am quite convinced, from my personal experience, that during my OBEs, the focus of my awareness is outside my physical body. I can add that initially, the experience was spontaneous - I wasn't expecting or anticipating it so the question of inducing the experience, or of deliberately influencing events to achieve a specific outcome doesn't arise (at least, as far as I am concerned, it doesn't arise). I have never felt the slightest whiff of danger during an OBE - quite the opposite, I feel so safe that the question of security never arises, and my OBE experiences are followed by a state of exhilaration that can last for several days or more.

For mine this is perfectly valid evidence, yet the response of many skeptics is to label it 'anecdotal' and then ignore it, as if the label somehow makes the evidence disappear. How many anecdotes does it take to produce admissible evidence demanding explanation? Similarly, insisting that the only valid evidence must be physical or chemical produces the same outcome. There's a lot to be said in favour of skepticism but when it's effect to eliminate any evidence that the current scientific orthodoxy cannot accommodate then it ceases to be legitimate skepticism and becomes something else, something quite 'un-scientific' to boot - it is tailoring the evidence to preserve an inadequate model.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

When I see the sun I simultaneously observe that my locale is lighted and I feel the warmth of the rays.

What you're feeling isn't "the warmth of the rays." Please read "Dick and Jane learn Science."

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Also, what is 'effectively brain-dead'? This article, a chapter in a book actually, provides two scales for diagnosing coma neither of which include the instrument flat line we are accustomed to seeing on television dramas

The example was the brain during induced cardiac arrest, not in coma states. Nice fish though.

K.

quote:

How can an OBE be anything but a personal experience? How can any personal account of an OBE be anything but a person's subjective interpretation of their experience? For my part, I am quite convinced, from my personal experience, that during my OBEs, the focus of my awareness is outside my physical body. I can add that initially, the experience was spontaneous - I wasn't expecting or anticipating it so the question of inducing the experience, or of deliberately influencing events to achieve a specific outcome doesn't arise (at least, as far as I am concerned, it doesn't arise). I have never felt the slightest whiff of danger during an OBE - quite the opposite, I feel so safe that the question of security never arises, and my OBE experiences are followed by a state of exhilaration that can last for several days or more.

quote:

For mine this is perfectly valid evidence, yet the response of many skeptics is to label it 'anecdotal' and then ignore it, as if the label somehow makes the evidence disappear. How many anecdotes does it take to produce admissible evidence demanding explanation?

quote:

Similarly, insisting that the only valid evidence must be physical or chemical produces the same outcome. There's a lot to be said in favour of skepticism but when it's effect to eliminate any evidence that the current scientific orthodoxy cannot accommodate then it ceases to be legitimate skepticism and becomes something else, something quite 'un-scientific' to boot - it is tailoring the evidence to preserve an inadequate model.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: deathtothepixies

where are memories stored if not in the brain?

I don't even have a theory, let alone an answer. But when people report an out of body experience characterized by lucid consciousness, and can recount verifiable observations of events occurring during the period when they were in a state of induced cardiac arrest -- when even the most basic brain stem reflexes are unresponsive and there is no evidence of any brain activity sufficient to support conscious awareness or memory -- the question arises of how they could remember those experiences if memories were (only) stored in the brain.

K.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

If it's real then you should be able to make an observation that would be physically impossible. Do that and you get $1 million from the JREF.

So you're going to trot out Randi as your front man, eh? Well that figures.

Mister Honesty
More Hijinks

K.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

I've asked before please present these verified cases.

Let me see if I understand this correctly. You have declared, presumably on the basis of your familiarity with the literature in the field (unless you were just making shit up) that "there is no evidence." You have proclaimed with what can only be described as bold ecclesiastical finality that "it doesn't happen." And now, with that out of the way, you want to know what the fuck I'm talking about?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

If you really believe those lying weasels I can't help you.

Heh. Back to the accusations of lying again. When all else fails, eh?

K.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Let me see if I understand this correctly. You have declared, presumably on the basis of your familiarity with the literature in the field (unless you were just making shit up) that "there is no evidence." You have proclaimed with what can only be described as bold ecclesiastical finality that "it doesn't happen." And now, with that out of the way, you want to know what the fuck I'm talking about?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Maybe you don't understand how real science works.

Spare me your priestly lectures. What you call "real science" is Scientism.

K.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:


Let me see if I understand this correctly. You have declared, presumably on the basis of your familiarity with the literature in the field (unless you were just making shit up) that "there is no evidence." You have proclaimed with what can only be described as bold ecclesiastical finality that "it doesn't happen." And now, with that out of the way, you want to know what the fuck I'm talking about?

You made the claim that people were verified occurrences of lucid and conscious during hypothermic open heart surgery and I asked for the details so I could look into them myself. You never did and then made the claim a second time. I've now spent yet more time trying to find anyone claiming this and can't. So where did you get this claim from?

What's presented here is interesting.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Induced cardiac arrest is not necessarily synonymous with brain death whatever your definition of brain-death is. By what measure is it NOT coma?

Are you lost in Grey's Anatomy, the television show?

Coma covers a wide range of states, only one of which presents with an isoelectric EEG characteristic of induced cardiac arrest and clinical death. Absent hypothermia or sedation (both of which are present in induced cardiac arrest) "the clinical impact of electro-cerebral inactivity is grave, [and] the standard protocols for obtaining 'brain death' recordings must be followed."

Electroencephalographic Patterns in Coma