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vincentML -> RE: The Covert Messiah (11/8/2013 11:33:11 AM)
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There was no intention to shift the goalposts, and my bad if my post lends itself to that reading. The locus of consciousness is one aspect of the greater issue of arriving at a deep understanding of consciousness. It seems to me unlikely that a deep understanding could not be arrived at without some understanding of its locus. Be that as it may I am happy to go either way.
I regret the comment on moving the goal posts. Sorry about that.
Locus schmocus. We are not even agreed on a definition of consciousness. My own definition would be that conscious experience is the function by which the brain interacts with the internal and external environment. It is the brain's awareness. I invite your definition. Maybe we can find some commonality.
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the demand for proof becomes a demand for the impossible, and evidence of experience is dismissed as “anecdotal” (on a good day) or “hallucinations” (on a bad day) depending on the mood of the acolyte doing the dismissing (some would say arrogance). This is why I find the demand for “scientific proof’ troubling.
I ask you to set aside for the moment the negative baggage that comes with the term "Hallucination" and treat it as a category (I know, I know) of brain generated illusions. I provided a link earlier to a discussion of Charles Bonnet Syndrome where the patient perceives very real like but non existent persons, sharp and clear unlike a dream. In Charles Bonnet Syndrome the perceived figures did not communicate with the patient. In schizophrenia the patient is bombarded by accusatory voices. I am not saying here, not even implying that OBE is a pathogenic condition. Quite the contrary. I am pointing out that the human brain is capable of some incredible feats of consciousness.
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However I feel obliged to query your statement that some “subjective experiences that will probably forever be beyond the scientific method except science can show that they originate in the brain”. My understanding is that current research is limited to demonstrating a correlation between subjective exps and certain types of brain activity. I am unaware of any research demonstrating that these exps. ”originate” in the brain. It was pointed out earlier in the thread that the arrow of cause-and-effect points in both directions.
I pointed earlier to two of many cause and effect relationships. Prefrontal lobotomies lead to judgments that were inappropriate or immoral. See the book Rebel Without a Cause if it is still in print. Not the movie btw. Totally different. I also pointed out that lesions to the angular gyrus resulted in difficulty handling written language and spatial relationships. Along with pathologies like schizophrenia and Charles Bonnet Syndrome I cannot imagine more direct evidence that the brain is the source of consciousness. Let me add also that phantom limb pain has been fairly easily relieved by the clever use of mirrors. More evidence that the brain produces conscious experience.
Does the arrow point the other way? Yes, of course. Experiences alter the brain. Addiction alters the brain. Meditation alters the brain. But addiction and meditation are behaviors initiated by the brain. And perceptions of environmental experiences are received and interpreted by the brain. Let me add also while I think of it there is a bulging history of electrode implants that conjured up conscious experiences. I think therefore we have ample evidence that the brain is the author of consciousness. And no evidence for any other author or locus. I grant the reality of your OBE but in my model it originates in your brain. I do not ask for scientific proof to the contrary; I only ask for a possible explanation, a mechanism, a pathway as to how you could experience it if it were located beyond anatomy.
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Indeed. However the limits I have been referring are constitutional limits, not practical ones. These limits are part of the structure. According Brionowoski, Bertrand Russell found that the only way these limits could be altered was by "taking the maths out of maths". So I am unable to share your optimism.
Again, math is not the only or even the predominant mode of human thinking.
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But please Vincent, no one in their right minds could ever accuse me of being (a) American, (b) religious or (c) a right winger. On these boards I have been consistently scathing about the Religious Right in the USA and wherever else these lunatics might trot out their drivel.
QFT [:D]
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