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Citizen vs Subject, what is the difference? - 10/9/2013 9:24:08 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		What do you see as the difference between a subject and a citizen?
Do you think they are the same?
Here is what I see as the basic difference.
A subject depends on the government for everything, a citizen depends, first and foremost, on himself and only on government as a last resort.



< Message edited by BamaD -- 10/9/2013 9:29:09 PM >

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People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.
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RE: Citizen vs Subject, what is the difference? - 10/9/2013 10:10:04 PM   
RottenJohnny


Posts: 1677
Joined: 5/5/2006
Status: offline 		I'm no expert on monarchy but in practice, I don't really think there is much difference between a US citizen and say, a British subject. Technically, the only difference I can think of is that the Queen is the sovereign in the UK and the citizens are [supposed to be] sovereign in the US.

_____________________________

"I find your arguments strewn with gaping defects in logic." - Mr. Spock

"Give me liberty or give me death." - Patrick Henry

I believe in common sense, not common opinions. - Me

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RE: Citizen vs Subject, what is the difference? - 10/9/2013 10:17:46 PM   
SerWhiteTiger


Posts: 437
Joined: 8/12/2013
From: Why is my name Florida? That's a state!
Status: offline 		http://lmgtfy.com/?q=the+difference+between+a+citizen+and+a+subject

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RE: Citizen vs Subject, what is the difference? - 10/9/2013 10:53:03 PM   
lovmuffin


Posts: 3759
Joined: 9/28/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SerWhiteTiger

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=the+difference+between+a+citizen+and+a+subject


LMAO Good one That should settle it.

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RE: Citizen vs Subject, what is the difference? - 10/9/2013 11:02:17 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny

I'm no expert on monarchy but in practice, I don't really think there is much difference between a US citizen and say, a British subject. Technically, the only difference I can think of is that the Queen is the sovereign in the UK and the citizens are [supposed to be] sovereign in the US.

This may be sticky but I am not so much talking about the title but the state of being.
For example under the Roman Empire they retained the title of citizen but they had become subjects.
There is more citizenship in England than in many places where they tell the people they are citizens.
I like they definition posted.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to RottenJohnny)
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RE: Citizen vs Subject, what is the difference? - 10/9/2013 11:03:53 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		Great link

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to SerWhiteTiger)
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RE: Citizen vs Subject, what is the difference? - 10/9/2013 11:17:06 PM   
tj444


Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline 		In the US, I am neither.. I have Canadian citizenship (my passport tells me so.. ) but I don't feel like a "citizen".. I most certainly don't feel like a "subject" either.. I feel that since I don't live in Canada full-time, I am not really a "citizen".. I probably will never feel like a "citizen" in any country (even if I were to get a second citizenship elsewhere)...

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RE: Citizen vs Subject, what is the difference? - 10/9/2013 11:22:00 PM   
RottenJohnny


Posts: 1677
Joined: 5/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny

I'm no expert on monarchy but in practice, I don't really think there is much difference between a US citizen and say, a British subject. Technically, the only difference I can think of is that the Queen is the sovereign in the UK and the citizens are [supposed to be] sovereign in the US.

This may be sticky but I am not so much talking about the title but the state of being.
For example under the Roman Empire they retained the title of citizen but they had become subjects.
There is more citizenship in England than in many places where they tell the people they are citizens.
I like they definition posted.

Then are you asking who is more "free" or independent, a subject or a citizen?

_____________________________

"I find your arguments strewn with gaping defects in logic." - Mr. Spock

"Give me liberty or give me death." - Patrick Henry

I believe in common sense, not common opinions. - Me

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Citizen vs Subject, what is the difference? - 10/10/2013 1:48:25 AM   
eulero83


Posts: 1470
Joined: 11/4/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

What do you see as the difference between a subject and a citizen?
Do you think they are the same?
Here is what I see as the basic difference.
A subject depends on the government for everything, a citizen depends, first and foremost, on himself and only on government as a last resort.



This is because you are ignorant on this subject, citizenship or subjection are two different juridical staus and have nothing to do with the ability of acting, a subject is a person in a juridical condition that implicates only passive juridical situations (has only duties), while a citizen is holder of rights and other active juridical situations (like political partecipation).
What you describe is an asocial and if denies any utility of a governament is an anarchist.

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RE: Citizen vs Subject, what is the difference? - 10/10/2013 2:02:11 AM   
eulero83


Posts: 1470
Joined: 11/4/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny

I'm no expert on monarchy but in practice, I don't really think there is much difference between a US citizen and say, a British subject. Technically, the only difference I can think of is that the Queen is the sovereign in the UK and the citizens are [supposed to be] sovereign in the US.

For example under the Roman Empire they retained the title of citizen but they had become subjects.


this is because what you know about the roman empire comes from hollywood movies

quote:


There is more citizenship in England than in many places where they tell the people they are citizens.


how can there be "more citizenship"? citizenship is a status "on or off", "0 or 1", "yes or no"! maybe you mean there are more rights for citizens!



(in reply to BamaD)
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RE: Citizen vs Subject, what is the difference? - 10/10/2013 2:16:30 AM   
crazyml


Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

What do you see as the difference between a subject and a citizen?
Do you think they are the same?
Here is what I see as the basic difference.
A subject depends on the government for everything, a citizen depends, first and foremost, on himself and only on government as a last resort.




I think the distinction is pretty much 100% irrelevant in many cases. In the UK, for example, whilst UK nationals are subjects of the queen, the powers that the queen holds are limited by parliament - we're de facto citizens.

In the context of some other countries (like, perhaps, Saudi Arabia) the extent of the powers of the head of state are such that nationals of that country are subjects.

I think the distinction is fundamentally about the rights of people to change their head of state.



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Remember.... There's always somewhere on the planet where it's jackass o'clock.

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RE: Citizen vs Subject, what is the difference? - 10/10/2013 3:29:58 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

In the US, I am neither.. I have Canadian citizenship (my passport tells me so.. ) but I don't feel like a "citizen".. I most certainly don't feel like a "subject" either.. I feel that since I don't live in Canada full-time, I am not really a "citizen".. I probably will never feel like a "citizen" in any country (even if I were to get a second citizenship elsewhere)...

Sorry to hear that it must be a lost feeling.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to tj444)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Citizen vs Subject, what is the difference? - 10/10/2013 3:31:05 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny

I'm no expert on monarchy but in practice, I don't really think there is much difference between a US citizen and say, a British subject. Technically, the only difference I can think of is that the Queen is the sovereign in the UK and the citizens are [supposed to be] sovereign in the US.

This may be sticky but I am not so much talking about the title but the state of being.
For example under the Roman Empire they retained the title of citizen but they had become subjects.
There is more citizenship in England than in many places where they tell the people they are citizens.
I like they definition posted.

Then are you asking who is more "free" or independent, a subject or a citizen?

To me that is one way to describe the difference.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to RottenJohnny)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Citizen vs Subject, what is the difference? - 10/10/2013 3:35:04 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

What do you see as the difference between a subject and a citizen?
Do you think they are the same?
Here is what I see as the basic difference.
A subject depends on the government for everything, a citizen depends, first and foremost, on himself and only on government as a last resort.



This is because you are ignorant on this subject, citizenship or subjection are two different juridical staus and have nothing to do with the ability of acting, a subject is a person in a juridical condition that implicates only passive juridical situations (has only duties), while a citizen is holder of rights and other active juridical situations (like political partecipation).
What you describe is an asocial and if denies any utility of a governament is an anarchist.

To the extent that I translate what you said we have a communication problem.
Your description of a subject sounds to me to be that of a prisoner.
I in no way advocate anarchy just non-dependence.


_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to eulero83)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Citizen vs Subject, what is the difference? - 10/10/2013 3:39:24 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny

I'm no expert on monarchy but in practice, I don't really think there is much difference between a US citizen and say, a British subject. Technically, the only difference I can think of is that the Queen is the sovereign in the UK and the citizens are [supposed to be] sovereign in the US.

For example under the Roman Empire they retained the title of citizen but they had become subjects.


this is because what you know about the roman empire comes from hollywood movies

quote:


There is more citizenship in England than in many places where they tell the people they are citizens.


how can there be "more citizenship"? citizenship is a status "on or off", "0 or 1", "yes or no"! maybe you mean there are more rights for citizens!




The English have more say in their government and a greater understanding of the fact that office holders are public servants that those in most countries.
No, I do not believe anything Hollywood has to say about history, it is almost always wrong.
I have, however, been influenced by my degree in history.
Please note that I said under the empire.
Had I made those comments about Rome under the Republic, particularly the early republic you would have been correct but I didn't so you aren't.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 10/10/2013 3:44:34 AM >

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to eulero83)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Citizen vs Subject, what is the difference? - 10/10/2013 3:42:54 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

What do you see as the difference between a subject and a citizen?
Do you think they are the same?
Here is what I see as the basic difference.
A subject depends on the government for everything, a citizen depends, first and foremost, on himself and only on government as a last resort.




I think the distinction is pretty much 100% irrelevant in many cases. In the UK, for example, whilst UK nationals are subjects of the queen, the powers that the queen holds are limited by parliament - we're de facto citizens.

In the context of some other countries (like, perhaps, Saudi Arabia) the extent of the powers of the head of state are such that nationals of that country are subjects.

I think the distinction is fundamentally about the rights of people to change their head of state.



As I said earlier the UK is an example of people who are called subjects (mostly tradition I suspect) who fit the category of citizen much better than most other people in the world.
The ability of the people to change the government is as you said a key point.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to crazyml)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Citizen vs Subject, what is the difference? - 10/10/2013 4:16:57 AM   
eulero83


Posts: 1470
Joined: 11/4/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

What do you see as the difference between a subject and a citizen?
Do you think they are the same?
Here is what I see as the basic difference.
A subject depends on the government for everything, a citizen depends, first and foremost, on himself and only on government as a last resort.



This is because you are ignorant on this subject, citizenship or subjection are two different juridical staus and have nothing to do with the ability of acting, a subject is a person in a juridical condition that implicates only passive juridical situations (has only duties), while a citizen is holder of rights and other active juridical situations (like political partecipation).
What you describe is an asocial and if denies any utility of a governament is an anarchist.

To the extent that I translate what you said we have a communication problem.
Your description of a subject sounds to me to be that of a prisoner.
I in no way advocate anarchy just non-dependence.



No a prisoner is a person whose ability to act has been empired, you confuse the status of citizenship with the ability to act.
Citiznship and subjection depend on what kind of legal personality you have, if the law in your country only impose duties and grants no rights than you are a subject, if the law grants you rights and impose your duties than you are a citizen.

edit: A soldier during a war is an example of subject, he is not prisoner but has only duties to his superiors in the chain of command.

< Message edited by eulero83 -- 10/10/2013 4:39:10 AM >

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RE: Citizen vs Subject, what is the difference? - 10/10/2013 4:52:45 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		There is a misconception between the use of the term subject in the UK, in that it doesnt mean the King/Queen has absolute power. This hasnt been the case since the Bill Of Rights in 1689. It wasnt fully the case after the Magna Carta in 1215, with several future Kings trying to regain full power. Ironically some of the most repressed times for UK Citizens came about during the English Republic, (Commonwealth) under Cromwell. A British Citizen, or subject, means you are protected by British laws and owe an alliegance to the King/Queen, more precisely, to the Crown as a whole (The UK) It is one of those archaic terms used in English Common Law.

The US Bill of Rights, including the right to bear arms, comes from the UK Bill of Rights. Essentially, both countries rule of law is based on English Common law, while this isnt a constitution it has the exact same effect. The expectations on civic duties are also much the same. Voting, jury service, upholding the law, serving the country in time of need, being a good citizen. I cant think of any differences either side of the Atlantic.






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RE: Citizen vs Subject, what is the difference? - 10/10/2013 5:36:18 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline 		This is a rather silly thread.

In modern Western democracies, there is virtually no difference in practice between the rights and obligations of citizens and subjects.

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RE: Citizen vs Subject, what is the difference? - 10/10/2013 5:56:29 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		FR
When conservatives start making up their own meanings of well understood words it demonstrates the depth of the disconnect between them and the rest of us.

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Profile   Post #: 20
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