Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: Citizen vs Subject, what is the difference?


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: Citizen vs Subject, what is the difference? Page: <<   < prev  1 [2] 3   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Citizen vs Subject, what is the difference? - 10/10/2013 6:02:25 AM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

What do you see as the difference between a subject and a citizen?



The Divine Right of Kings.


_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Citizen vs Subject, what is the difference? - 10/10/2013 6:23:21 AM   
Zonie63


Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

What do you see as the difference between a subject and a citizen?
Do you think they are the same?
Here is what I see as the basic difference.
A subject depends on the government for everything, a citizen depends, first and foremost, on himself and only on government as a last resort.


In practice, I don't think there's a great deal of difference, at least in today's world. On paper, there might be some measure of difference, but in reality, people are subject to whatever government holds jurisdiction wherever they happen to be.

The distinction seems to be more on where a citizen is rather than what a citizen is.

I don't know that citizenship, by definition, indicates someone who depends on himself first and foremost. I think that's more of an individual trait which could be just as easily exhibited by subjects as well as citizens. Even serfs and slaves might be more self-reliant in that they're doing all the work they need to do to feed, clothe, and house themselves, yet their main disadvantage is that they're doing it on land that someone else holds title to. I don't see that their actual status (whether "citizens," "subjects," etc.) would be defined by their ability to be self-reliant, since that's more a matter of individual work ethic and morals.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Citizen vs Subject, what is the difference? - 10/10/2013 6:34:57 AM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
A subject depends on the government for everything, a citizen depends, first and foremost, on himself and only on government as a last resort.

A citizen is someone who can (and does) participate in government. A subject is someone who is simply subjected to the will of the king/president/whatever. Obama, even moreso than Bush, made me feel like a subject rather than a citizen. I'm glad I don't live in the US any more.

Put differently, to be a citizen you must be free (in the way the goreans might talk of that). In that light, few people are citizens no matter what they say.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Citizen vs Subject, what is the difference? - 10/10/2013 6:37:51 AM   
eulero83


Posts: 1470
Joined: 11/4/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63


In practice, I don't think there's a great deal of difference, at least in today's world. On paper, there might be some measure of difference, but in reality, people are subject to whatever government holds jurisdiction wherever they happen to be.



One of the biggest difficoulties I had writing the first post in this thread, is that in my language we have two different word to translate the word subject so I had to rewrite things, one refers to the legal status like being "subject of the king" in opposition to be citizen of a country and it is "suddito", another in the meaning of being subject to the law (or even the subject in a sentence) and it is "soggetto", we have a clear distinction between the two meanings, what I saw in some of this threads using the two meanings at the same time to prove ideological points or to just underline the differences between the status of american inhabitants before and after the revolution forgettin there is a whole world outside america and social changes didn't happened only in the 18th sentury.

(in reply to Zonie63)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Citizen vs Subject, what is the difference? - 10/10/2013 8:18:23 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

This is a rather silly thread.

In modern Western democracies, there is virtually no difference in practice between the rights and obligations of citizens and subjects.


This would be my view, but still.

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Citizen vs Subject, what is the difference? - 10/10/2013 8:23:49 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

What do you see as the difference between a subject and a citizen?



The Divine Right of Kings.



Which hasnt applied in the UK since the 1680s. A little later in France and I am not sure if anywhere still has such a notion.

(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Citizen vs Subject, what is the difference? - 10/10/2013 8:27:20 AM   
eulero83


Posts: 1470
Joined: 11/4/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

What do you see as the difference between a subject and a citizen?



The Divine Right of Kings.



Which hasnt applied in the UK since the 1680s. A little later in France and I am not sure if anywhere still has such a notion.


in saudi arabia, it's one of the last absolute monarchies in the world.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Citizen vs Subject, what is the difference? - 10/10/2013 9:01:21 AM   
tj444


Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

In the US, I am neither.. I have Canadian citizenship (my passport tells me so.. ) but I don't feel like a "citizen".. I most certainly don't feel like a "subject" either.. I feel that since I don't live in Canada full-time, I am not really a "citizen".. I probably will never feel like a "citizen" in any country (even if I were to get a second citizenship elsewhere)...

Sorry to hear that it must be a lost feeling.

a lost feeling? actually, no, it is the feeling of true freedom as I can live (at least part of each year) in several nice, civilized countries.. Unlike Americans, I wont (once leaving here) be required to declare my worldwide income to the govt/IRS..
From a tax perspective, Americans (those that still hold US citizenship) are indeed "subjects" of the IRS.. just sayin'..

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Citizen vs Subject, what is the difference? - 10/10/2013 10:17:48 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

There is a misconception between the use of the term subject in the UK, in that it doesnt mean the King/Queen has absolute power. This hasnt been the case since the Bill Of Rights in 1689. It wasnt fully the case after the Magna Carta in 1215, with several future Kings trying to regain full power. Ironically some of the most repressed times for UK Citizens came about during the English Republic, (Commonwealth) under Cromwell. A British Citizen, or subject, means you are protected by British laws and owe an alliegance to the King/Queen, more precisely, to the Crown as a whole (The UK) It is one of those archaic terms used in English Common Law.

The US Bill of Rights, including the right to bear arms, comes from the UK Bill of Rights. Essentially, both countries rule of law is based on English Common law, while this isnt a constitution it has the exact same effect. The expectations on civic duties are also much the same. Voting, jury service, upholding the law, serving the country in time of need, being a good citizen. I cant think of any differences either side of the Atlantic.







yes, sounds like a more complete explanation of what I skipped over with by tradition.
And very useful for those who know nothing beyond the founding of mtv

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Citizen vs Subject, what is the difference? - 10/10/2013 10:20:42 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

This is a rather silly thread.

In modern Western democracies, there is virtually no difference in practice between the rights and obligations of citizens and subjects.

The difference between them is the same it is just that some, like the English, still carry a title that is no longer accurate.
The British are now citizens even if they are called subjects

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Citizen vs Subject, what is the difference? - 10/10/2013 10:41:24 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

This is a rather silly thread.

In modern Western democracies, there is virtually no difference in practice between the rights and obligations of citizens and subjects.

The difference between them is the same it is just that some, like the English, still carry a title that is no longer accurate.
The British are now citizens even if they are called subjects



Oh ffs are you going to insist with this shit. The only time I am called a subject is by tossers trying to prove a point, or in archaic terms used in law. You really are making yourself look silly by continuing with this.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Citizen vs Subject, what is the difference? - 10/10/2013 11:41:08 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
As long as you are happy

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to tj444)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Citizen vs Subject, what is the difference? - 10/10/2013 11:45:13 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
archaic terms used in law.

It is under the law I was talking about, and have clearly stated that the British are clearly citizens regardless of this.
Is a tosser someone who can't handle it when someone agrees with them?

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Citizen vs Subject, what is the difference? - 10/10/2013 11:45:52 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
Citizens are subject to the law. Its tomato tomato.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Citizen vs Subject, what is the difference? - 10/10/2013 12:48:16 PM   
Zonie63


Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63


In practice, I don't think there's a great deal of difference, at least in today's world. On paper, there might be some measure of difference, but in reality, people are subject to whatever government holds jurisdiction wherever they happen to be.



One of the biggest difficoulties I had writing the first post in this thread, is that in my language we have two different word to translate the word subject so I had to rewrite things, one refers to the legal status like being "subject of the king" in opposition to be citizen of a country and it is "suddito", another in the meaning of being subject to the law (or even the subject in a sentence) and it is "soggetto", we have a clear distinction between the two meanings, what I saw in some of this threads using the two meanings at the same time to prove ideological points or to just underline the differences between the status of american inhabitants before and after the revolution forgettin there is a whole world outside america and social changes didn't happened only in the 18th sentury.


I think the meanings of words are important, but I also agree that not every term/concept is directly translatable from one language to another.

That's also why the difference between "citizen" and "subject" is essentially meaningless in practice, since they can be defined any which way the powers that be want them to be defined.



(in reply to eulero83)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Citizen vs Subject, what is the difference? - 10/10/2013 12:57:08 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Citizens are subject to the law. Its tomato tomato.



It is, it is.

I've got to say: it's a really neat trick when those who have power over you convince you that, really, they have no power over you at all. Brilliant. Both the USA and the UK are, nominally, 'democracies'. 'Democracy' means rule by the people - not rule by kings, not overlords and not elites. The reality is very far from this. Likewise the reality is that the practical difference between the levels of individual autonomy of, say, a US citizen and a UK subject is hardly worth considering

_____________________________

http://www.domme-chronicles.com


(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Citizen vs Subject, what is the difference? - 10/10/2013 1:11:22 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
My first point:

A subject merely unquestionably and uncomplainingly obeys the government.
A citizen participates in the democratic processes, in some fashion.

Therefore there are subjects in America as well as Britain, and citizens in America as well as Britain.

Now to the actual specifications, and the realities, British people are citizens of Britain. There is a bit of toffee nosed mummery for traditional reasons that they are theoretically (and it is very theoretical, subjects, but it is really play-acting).

British citizenship is largely a legal status set out in the British Nationality Act of 1981.
Because the UK has no formal written constitution, the rights and duties of the populace are governed by a huge body of statute and common law which is constantly being modified by Parliament and interpreted by the courts.

Although the populace of Britain may theoretically still be subjects of the monarchy, in practice there are limits to the powers of the crown even when exercised by the elected government.

Most of these restrictions arose from Britain's signing of the Treaty of Rome in 1972 which established the superiority of European Law and set limits on the sovereignty of the British Parliament.

It gave the British Courts the power to review Acts of Parliament and in the light of EU legislation, to override Statute Law when it failed to comply with European law.

As a result EU legislation and judgments from the European Court of Justice automatically become part of the UK constitution.

The UK has also signed the European Convention on Human Rights into its law under the Human Rights Act of 1998. This piece of law is already being used by the courts to restrain the powers of the executive.

The British Nationality Act 1981

7. The British Nationality Act 1981, which came into force on 1 January 1983, replaced citizenship of the United Kingdom and Colonies with three separate citizenships:

(a) British citizenship for those persons who had the right of abode in the United Kingdom (as defined in Section 2 of the Immigration Act 1971);

(b) British Dependent Territories citizenship for those connected by birth or descent with a dependent territory;

(c) British Overseas citizenship for those who did not belong to categories (a) or (b) above.
The term "Commonwealth citizen" no longer has the same meaning as "British subject" although persons connected with the Republic of Ireland, India or Pakistan who were British subjects under the 1948 Act (see paragraph 5 above) retain that status under the 1981 Act.

8. Women, whether commonwealth or foreign, no longer have an entitlement to registration, but spouses (of either sex) may apply for naturalisation after three years residence in the UK. Citizenship may now be transmitted through either the male of female line, except that in the case of an illegitimate child it can be acquired only through the mother.

9. In general, since 1 January 1983, it has been possible to acquire British citizenship automatically:


(a) by birth in the UK to a parent who is either a British citizen or settled in the UK under immigration law;

(b) by adoption in the UK by a British citizen parent;

(c) by birth outside the UK to a parent who is a British citizen "otherwise than by descent";

(d) by birth outside the UK to a British citizen parent in Crown, Designated or European Community service.
10. Special rules apply to the acquisition of British citizenship by British Dependent Territories citizens connected with Gibraltar and the Falkland Islands.

Can this end another significantly stupid thread now?


_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Citizen vs Subject, what is the difference? - 10/10/2013 1:18:02 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

Can this end another significantly stupid thread now?


No. Don't ask significantly stupid questions.

_____________________________

http://www.domme-chronicles.com


(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Citizen vs Subject, what is the difference? - 10/10/2013 1:21:51 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
America is no longer a colony and you are not the Cabbage of me!!!!

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Citizen vs Subject, what is the difference? - 10/10/2013 1:46:51 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

What do you see as the difference between a subject and a citizen?
Do you think they are the same?
Here is what I see as the basic difference.
A subject depends on the government for everything, a citizen depends, first and foremost, on himself and only on government as a last resort.





What is it exactly is it that you depend on yourself for?
You did not build your house,the govt did. Think not then check out where the wood came from and the fovt laws that sanctioned it.
You did not build your car, the govt did.Think not why is there a vin and a license plate and fees due every year?
You did not educate youself, the govt did. How did both public and private education become a reality in this country except for govt. subsidy.
You are incapable of defending yourself from armed aggression(oh your govt modl with the hydrashock hollow points...are about as usefull as spitwads against real soldiers.

So please tell us what the fuck you or any so called"citizen" does first and foremost for himself?

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 40
Page:   <<   < prev  1 [2] 3   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: Citizen vs Subject, what is the difference? Page: <<   < prev  1 [2] 3   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.109