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RE: Citizen vs Subject, what is the difference? - 10/10/2013 4:17:13 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Citizens are subject to the law. Its tomato tomato.


I knew someone would understand.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Citizen vs Subject, what is the difference? - 10/10/2013 4:38:46 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

What do you see as the difference between a subject and a citizen?



The Divine Right of Kings.



How many of them are left?

(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Citizen vs Subject, what is the difference? - 10/10/2013 4:57:48 PM   
eulero83


Posts: 1470
Joined: 11/4/2005
Status: offline 		Brunei, Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Swaziland, Vatican City, each of the United Arab Emirates.

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Citizen vs Subject, what is the difference? - 10/10/2013 6:05:46 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83

Brunei, Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Swaziland, Vatican City, each of the United Arab Emirates.


So about a dozen countries in the world are rueled by someone that has an imaginary friend who said he got to be in charge.
Wonder how long till that shit dies out completely?

(in reply to eulero83)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Citizen vs Subject, what is the difference? - 10/11/2013 12:59:33 AM   
eulero83


Posts: 1470
Joined: 11/4/2005
Status: offline 		By the way also the Republic of San Marino's citizens are such because around 300 AD their imaginary friend said they had to form a parlament.
Vatican city will go on for long time because: one Italy can't declare war first after WWII so we can't finish the job, two all the subjects willingly submit and they go around talking about their imaginary friend at any given time.

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Citizen vs Subject, what is the difference? - 10/11/2013 7:57:22 AM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline 		I think the King of Tonga still has absolute rule. But I haven't bothered to look it up, nor indeed whether Tonga is still called that.

ETA: I tell a lie. From Wikipedia - In 2010 Tonga took a decisive step towards becoming a fully functioning constitutional monarchy, after legislative reforms paved the way for its first partial representative elections.

So there we are.

< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 10/11/2013 7:58:15 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Citizen vs Subject, what is the difference? - 10/12/2013 3:39:09 PM   
Apocalypso


Posts: 1104
Joined: 4/20/2009
Status: offline 		I'd disagree with my fellow Brits and say it's only mostly ceremonial.

The Monarch does have certain powers though they're only likely to be used in exceptional circumstances.

Like in Australia, in 1975. The removal of the elected Prime Minister by the Governor-General was only constitutionally possible because he is the representative of the Crown.

Another interesting anomaly is that the Armed Forces swear their loyalty to the Crown, not the people. That means that technically you could have a constitutionally legal military coup in the UK. That's entirely theoretical though. It's never even been near happening. Some of the loonier plots against Harold Wilson had it as a major component though.

The most significant effect it has though (and this is why I'm a republican) is that it has a big effect on how government works. If the executive uses their prerogative powers (which are inherited directly from the Crown), it's near impossible to hold them to account. It's how Tony Blair bypassed parliament to go to war with Iraq. The monarchy is our government. Without getting rid of it, you can't overhaul the (unwritten) constitution.

_____________________________

If you're going to quote from the Book of Revelation,
Don't keep calling it the "Book of Revelations",
There's no "s", it's the Book of Revelation,
As revealed to Saint John the Divine.

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Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Citizen vs Subject, what is the difference? - 10/12/2013 4:08:21 PM   
crazyml


Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83

Brunei, Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Swaziland, Vatican City, each of the United Arab Emirates.


So about a dozen countries in the world are rueled by someone that has an imaginary friend who said he got to be in charge.
Wonder how long till that shit dies out completely?


50 years for 6 of the 7 I'd say. The exception will likely be around in 1000 years.

_____________________________

Remember.... There's always somewhere on the planet where it's jackass o'clock.

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Citizen vs Subject, what is the difference? - 10/12/2013 4:40:04 PM   
eulero83


Posts: 1470
Joined: 11/4/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Apocalypso

I'd disagree with my fellow Brits and say it's only mostly ceremonial.

The Monarch does have certain powers though they're only likely to be used in exceptional circumstances.

Like in Australia, in 1975. The removal of the elected Prime Minister by the Governor-General was only constitutionally possible because he is the representative of the Crown.

Another interesting anomaly is that the Armed Forces swear their loyalty to the Crown, not the people. That means that technically you could have a constitutionally legal military coup in the UK. That's entirely theoretical though. It's never even been near happening. Some of the loonier plots against Harold Wilson had it as a major component though.

The most significant effect it has though (and this is why I'm a republican) is that it has a big effect on how government works. If the executive uses their prerogative powers (which are inherited directly from the Crown), it's near impossible to hold them to account. It's how Tony Blair bypassed parliament to go to war with Iraq. The monarchy is our government. Without getting rid of it, you can't overhaul the (unwritten) constitution.


I make you some question to understand better:

Is there a costitutional duty for the crown to use this powers in the best interest of the people?
Can the governament be removed by the parlament with a vote of distrust?

then about a costitutional military coup it's possible in every republic as the president is usually the chief of the army, than some costitutions need a more unlikely situation than others but the state of emergency is always a possibility.

(in reply to Apocalypso)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Citizen vs Subject, what is the difference? - 10/12/2013 4:53:05 PM   
Apocalypso


Posts: 1104
Joined: 4/20/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83
Is there a costitutional duty for the crown to use this powers in the best interest of the people?


I don't believe so. Our at least I'm not aware of any precedents. Because our constitution is uncodifed it's harder then you might think to answer that off the top of my head.

quote:

Can the governament be removed by the parlament with a vote of distrust?


Yes, the last successful vote of no confidence was in 1979.


_____________________________

If you're going to quote from the Book of Revelation,
Don't keep calling it the "Book of Revelations",
There's no "s", it's the Book of Revelation,
As revealed to Saint John the Divine.

(in reply to eulero83)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Citizen vs Subject, what is the difference? - 10/12/2013 6:26:35 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Apocalypso


quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83
Is there a costitutional duty for the crown to use this powers in the best interest of the people?


I don't believe so. Our at least I'm not aware of any precedents. Because our constitution is uncodifed it's harder then you might think to answer that off the top of my head.

quote:

Can the governament be removed by the parlament with a vote of distrust?


Yes, the last successful vote of no confidence was in 1979.


What's good for the crown is good for the people, don't you know that.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Apocalypso)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Citizen vs Subject, what is the difference? - 10/13/2013 2:42:54 AM   
eulero83


Posts: 1470
Joined: 11/4/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Apocalypso


quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83
Is there a costitutional duty for the crown to use this powers in the best interest of the people?


I don't believe so. Our at least I'm not aware of any precedents. Because our constitution is uncodifed it's harder then you might think to answer that off the top of my head.

quote:

Can the governament be removed by the parlament with a vote of distrust?


Yes, the last successful vote of no confidence was in 1979.



The vote of no confidence is what subject the executive power ot the parlament and not to the crown, this makes the power of nominating a prime minister a duty to guarantee political stability instead of an arbitrary power.

In italy we have the same system with the president of the republic that's not prime minister like in the usa, he's elected by the parlament every 7 years (the parlament should be in charge 5 years so he's no more connected to the parlament once elected) he has the duty of nominate a prime minister that can be accepted by the parlament and win a vote of trust, he has the power to dismiss the parlament and have new election if it's impossible to find a clear majority, and with other powers the army swear to the president, so he's like an elected king but he has a legal duty to use those powers to protect the costitution.

(in reply to Apocalypso)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Citizen vs Subject, what is the difference? - 10/13/2013 10:43:51 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline 		What's good for the crown is good for the people, don't you know that.

Isn't that a lot like "what is good for business is good for america"?

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 53
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