RE: Suing over not wanting to pay $18/month for health insurance!

RE: Suing over not wanting to pay $18/month for health insurance! (Full Version)

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DesideriScuri -> RE: Suing over not wanting to pay $18/month for health insurance! (10/27/2013 8:54:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: Obviously, tweak agrees with that, but that doesn't answer my question. Is it ever okay to stop treating someone? How do we determine what is "premature" and what isn't? Is it the same for everyone, or not? Premature is when the physicians determine it to be. Premature if dying from a disease process that is easily curable if treated. Is it ever ok? Sure, when the patient decides they have had enough. When the physicians determine nothing more can be done. It should NOT be based upon what a limit has been reached. Is it the same for everyone? Of course not. End stage renal failure can run different courses. Magic Johnson has lived how long with HIV? What IS premature? A woman in her 40's diagnosed with early stages of breast cancer but no money for treatment. A man with prostate cancer but no way to diagnose because he cant get treated due to lack of insurance/money. I could go into a long list, but the only common denominator is lack of insurance/money. If you have enough money, you dont need the insurance. If you have the insurance, you might be able to afford the co-pay with little money. Without either, you receive no treatment and chances are you will die prematurely. It's all subjective, then. Rights are not subjective.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Suing over not wanting to pay $18/month for health insurance! (10/27/2013 8:59:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle Thank you for telling me what I think DS! Tazzygirl has already answered your question eloquently. Here's my far less eloquent response, bearing in mind that I agree with everything tazzy stated. A "premature" death in this context is a death that could have been prevented if the victim had access to healthcare that would would have prevented the death but is denied access for non-healthcare reasons such as lack of insurance cover. In practice that works out pretty much along the lines Leonine and tazzy described - private insurance death panels determining who gets treatment, or the victim not accessing services for fear of the financial consequences, or because they knew no insurer would cover the costs of their treatment. Tazzy hadn't responded yet. Your agreement with leonine's description certainly does show that I wasn't putting words into your mouth at all. Do you believe a person has a right to receive something they can't pay for, based solely on need? That is, they can demand it be provided to them without any promise of reimbursement for the service or product based solely on need?

DesideriScuri -> RE: Suing over not wanting to pay $18/month for health insurance! (10/27/2013 9:02:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Another news flash. I am ALL for single payer. Hell, I think we need a national health care. Imagine the savings to business? Big Business should have never gotten into health care. As a nation, we fucked up. So instead of paying for granny's healthcare, you prefer the model that determines when its no longer "profitable to keep granny alive"... profitable to keep anyone alive. Why did Big Biz get into health care? I'm sure it was simply for profits and had nothing to do with externalities, like government. [8\|] quote: And if you think 10 million dollars to keep her alive during the last 3 months is even close to the truth, darlin, I have a Bridge to Russia from Alaska to sell you. I can see it from here!! [8D] ETA: Good to see you back, Tazzy, even though we don't agree on much!

thompsonx -> RE: Suing over not wanting to pay $18/month for health insurance! (10/27/2013 9:03:32 AM)
Rights are not subjective. Rights may not be subjective but ones ability to practice them is.

thompsonx -> RE: Suing over not wanting to pay $18/month for health insurance! (10/27/2013 9:11:50 AM)
Do you believe a person has a right to receive something they can't pay for, based solely on need? That is, they can demand it be provided to them without any promise of reimbursement for the service or product based solely on need? For those who claim to be christians this would seem a simple question to answer. What the fuck would jeasus do?[8\|] On the other hand we can be pretty sure what a capitalist would do.

tazzygirl -> RE: Suing over not wanting to pay $18/month for health insurance! (10/27/2013 9:26:26 AM)
Rights are whatever society deems they are. Society changes, so do rights. Insisting that rights are objective indicates a moral base for those rights. We have even seen morality change in our generation. And we both know these rights are not inherent. So Im lost as to your argument here.

tazzygirl -> RE: Suing over not wanting to pay $18/month for health insurance! (10/27/2013 9:29:22 AM)
quote: Why did Big Biz get into health care? I'm sure it was simply for profits and had nothing to do with externalities, like government. Ask Nixon. quote: I can see it from here!! LOL Seriously. 10 million for healthcare in 3 months? The 6 million dollar man took longer! quote: ETA: Good to see you back, Tazzy, even though we don't agree on much! LOL Yeah yeah. We dont, but we both love to "debate"

Phydeaux -> RE: Suing over not wanting to pay $18/month for health insurance! (10/27/2013 12:50:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Is that something else you consider "miserable"? No. What I consider miserable is the stupid logic of liberals. $10 mil spent by the government comes from somewhere. That somewhere is (over time) tax payers. Every dollar you take is a dollar a tax payer doesn't have - to do things like - buy medicine. Buy cars. set aside for college. I resent the idea that you think you are more qualified to make healthcare decisions for me than I am. quote: Tell me your true bitch here. How much are YOU looking to spend on the ACA? Have you crunched your own numbers? Have you bothered? It isn't a question of bother. I would spit on it before I would sign up. Regarding -big business should never have gotten into employer provided insurance - couldn't agree more. Where we differ is that you think big government should. You think govt is qualified to decide the level of care granny gets. I think granny is - along with granny's doctor and nurse. Before that the rotarians, optimists, other civic groups made insurance available. I think these civic organizations - and others should be the ones making health care plans available.

Lucylastic -> RE: Suing over not wanting to pay $18/month for health insurance! (10/27/2013 12:53:08 PM)
OF course an insurance company makes decisions on how long level of care lasts for so many people, and usually sooner rather than later BTW still no cite for your ten million for 3 months for granny???

thompsonx -> RE: Suing over not wanting to pay $18/month for health insurance! (10/27/2013 4:21:22 PM)
ORIGINAL: Phydeaux No. What I consider miserable is the stupid logic of liberals. $10 mil spent by the government comes from somewhere. The same place the money for the sand box comes from. Every dollar you take is a dollar a tax payer doesn't have - to do things like - buy medicine. Buy cars. set aside for college. Think how much more they would have if they did not have to support the war in the sandbox which is several orders of magnatude more than the aca. I resent the idea that you think you are more qualified to make healthcare decisions for me than I am. Our elected officials are making those decissions...it is what we pay them to do. It isn't a question of bother. I would spit on it before I would sign up. Tell us again why you prefer to pay more for your health care? Regarding -big business should never have gotten into employer provided insurance - couldn't agree more. Where we differ is that you think big government should. That would be the folks we elected to do that very thing.[8\|] You think govt is qualified to decide the level of care granny gets. I think granny is - along with granny's doctor and nurse. With the aca granny gets health care. Without the aca granny gets nothing. Before that the rotarians, optimists, other civic groups made insurance available. I think these civic organizations - and others should be the ones making health care plans available. The government is not a civic organization? They usually teach civics in about the sixth grade. Perhaps you could tell us what fraction of a single digit percentage the rotarians and the optimist charity (which are not civic groups they are philantrophic groups) represent of the total health care budget?

tazzygirl -> RE: Suing over not wanting to pay $18/month for health insurance! (10/27/2013 4:30:34 PM)
quote: It isn't a question of bother. I would spit on it before I would sign up. Meaning, no, you havent. You are no better than the people Hannity brought on. quote: You think govt is qualified to decide the level of care granny gets. I think granny is - along with granny's doctor and nurse. Doctor's dont decide. Nurses never decided and never should. At this point, insurance companies decide. They decide by deciding how much can be spent, both during any given year and a lifetime cap.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Suing over not wanting to pay $18/month for health insurance! (10/27/2013 5:04:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Rights are whatever society deems they are. Society changes, so do rights. Insisting that rights are objective indicates a moral base for those rights. We have even seen morality change in our generation. And we both know these rights are not inherent. So Im lost as to your argument here. There is a massive difference between a right and a privilege. Privileges change when society changes them. A right, is a right, is a right. It's a right now. It was a right then. It's always a right. I know you've read the Declaration of Independence. Government is created to protect the rights of the governed. It isn't there to provide rights. Those aren't rights. Those are privileges.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Suing over not wanting to pay $18/month for health insurance! (10/27/2013 5:06:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: Why did Big Biz get into health care? I'm sure it was simply for profits and had nothing to do with externalities, like government. Ask Nixon. I just did. He didn't answer. So, I'll ask you, again. Why did Big Biz get into health care?

tazzygirl -> RE: Suing over not wanting to pay $18/month for health insurance! (10/27/2013 5:20:33 PM)
quote: There is a massive difference between a right and a privilege. Privileges change when society changes them. A right, is a right, is a right. It's a right now. It was a right then. It's always a right. So you are saying people had to fight for the privileged to vote, while others had it a given right. That some people had to fight for the privileged to be free, while some had the right to claim them as property. Nixon had a friend who wanted to take healthcare into a profit business. Nixon said "Sure".

Politesub53 -> RE: Suing over not wanting to pay $18/month for health insurance! (10/27/2013 5:49:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri Tazzy hadn't responded yet. Your agreement with leonine's description certainly does show that I wasn't putting words into your mouth at all. Do you believe a person has a right to receive something they can't pay for, based solely on need? That is, they can demand it be provided to them without any promise of reimbursement for the service or product based solely on need? I am guessing you dont include the right to have a standing army ready to protect your nation, or an efficient police force, or justice sytem, or civil works such as transport, water and sewage. None of which your tax even begins to cover.

Politesub53 -> RE: Suing over not wanting to pay $18/month for health insurance! (10/27/2013 5:51:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: Why did Big Biz get into health care? I'm sure it was simply for profits and had nothing to do with externalities, like government. Ask Nixon. I just did. He didn't answer. So, I'll ask you, again. Why did Big Biz get into health care? Profit, partly propped up by taxpayers subsidies, just the same as many industries.

Phydeaux -> RE: Suing over not wanting to pay $18/month for health insurance! (10/27/2013 6:10:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic OF course an insurance company makes decisions on how long level of care lasts for so many people, and usually sooner rather than later BTW still no cite for your ten million for 3 months for granny??? a). I wasn't asked for a cite. b). The number is irrelevent. Tazzy said cost should never be used to determine care. I find that thinking ridiculous. For purposes of hyperbole I picked 10 mil. Feel free to chose whatever number you want. 50 million - 500 million. Yes! Every american should be entitled to $500 million dollars in free medicine. And its an outrage, an outrage I say that it isn't so!

Politesub53 -> RE: Suing over not wanting to pay $18/month for health insurance! (10/27/2013 6:16:02 PM)
I challenged you to produce a cite in post #140 Nope, you picked your "hyperbole" of $10 million for a granny to live for three months. Hyperbole was the wrong word, you should have used alarmist bullshit.

Lucylastic -> RE: Suing over not wanting to pay $18/month for health insurance! (10/27/2013 6:17:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic OF course an insurance company makes decisions on how long level of care lasts for so many people, and usually sooner rather than later BTW still no cite for your ten million for 3 months for granny??? a). I wasn't asked for a cite. b). The number is irrelevent. Tazzy said cost should never be used to determine care. I find that thinking ridiculous. For purposes of hyperbole I picked 10 mil. Feel free to chose whatever number you want. 50 million - 500 million. Yes! Every american should be entitled to $500 million dollars in free medicine. And its an outrage, an outrage I say that it isn't so! NO, try being realistic .... you were asked for a cite, and you waffle and waffle then backtrack, everyone is being mean to you WAHHHHHHH

Phydeaux -> RE: Suing over not wanting to pay $18/month for health insurance! (10/27/2013 6:21:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: It isn't a question of bother. I would spit on it before I would sign up. Meaning, no, you havent. You are no better than the people Hannity brought on. Thats an interesting value judgement. Looking down on people are you? Since you seem to miss the point - I'll spell it out for you. Even if it were free, I wouldn't sign up for it. Nor will I, until the penalties are so egregious that they force me to. Or until I get seriously ill. In which case I'll quit my job and sign up for it. You want to force obamacare on people .. congrats - be prepared for people to resist. quote: At this point, insurance companies decide. They decide by deciding how much can be spent, both during any given year and a lifetime cap. YOU decided, by the level of insurance you elected to carry.

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