RE: One reason an American might wish to own a gun...

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BamaD -> RE: One reason an American might wish to own a gun... (10/26/2013 11:13:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle quote: ORIGINAL: lovmuffin quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle You are going to have to explain to me how adding one more gun to the several million already there is going to magically stop his creep re-offending........ . One more gun won't stop the creep from reoffending unless of course his would be victim chose to arm herself with that particular gun. If that's the case then it's not magic, it's bullets that will penetrate his skull and blow his brains out. [8D] The creep will never reoffend ever again. Sorry luvmuffin but this policy has already been tried and proved to be a total failure. The control group was the several million Californians who own licensed, legitimate weapons who were totally unable to prevent this creep raping women. There's no reason whatsoever to assume that increasing the size of the control group will alter the outcome and every reason not to. I get the impression that you have in mind living in some kind of armed camp where all citizens go about their business armed to the teeth all the time. You may call that a solution, I would call it a living hell. I don't think you follow lovemuffins point. Arming his wife will not protect every woman, just his wife. Those who choose not to take precautions clearly will not be protected. Nobody wants to live in and armed camp. But nobody wants to be raped either.

lovmuffin -> RE: One reason an American might wish to own a gun... (10/26/2013 11:47:30 PM)
T quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle quote: ORIGINAL: lovmuffin quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle You are going to have to explain to me how adding one more gun to the several million already there is going to magically stop his creep re-offending........ . One more gun won't stop the creep from reoffending unless of course his would be victim chose to arm herself with that particular gun. If that's the case then it's not magic, it's bullets that will penetrate his skull and blow his brains out. [8D] The creep will never reoffend ever again. I'm glad that we now agree that arming the population on its own isn't going to change anything. Your suggestion has already been tried and proved to be a total failure. The control group was the several million Californians who own licensed, legitimate weapons who were totally unable to prevent this creep raping women. There's no reason whatsoever to assume that increasing the size of the control group will alter the outcome and every reason not to. I get the impression that you have in mind living in some kind of armed camp where all citizens go about their business armed to the teeth all the time. You may call that a solution, I would call it a living hell. Maybe I'm missing something here or we're going in semantic circles. It's not like we form up posies or vigilante groups to run around hunting for rapists. What matters is that the individual who is about to get raped needs to be armed, not several million other people in the control group. The only thing you can figure out from the control group is how many rapes were successful against an armed potential victim and compare it to the successful rapes in the other control group of unarmed potential victims. I don't know what the odds of rape are in a woman's lifetime but it can't hurt to learn how to use a handgun and keep it handy. You may never need it but if ya ever do, there is no substitute. I don't know why you would consider keeping a weapon handy for protection is an "armed camp". "Living in hell" come on fercryinoutloud, this is the land of milk and honey.

EdBowie -> RE: One reason an American might wish to own a gun... (10/26/2013 11:51:51 PM)
Nobody forced you to choose the exact the words you posted. And the plain reading of your post about after the fact arrests being the preferred outcome over using force against criminals, is that women should not prevent rapists, abusers, etc. from committing their crimes. If that wasn't what you meant, you would have explained so... Your childish rant in response to a simple request for clarification, provides nothing useful. quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle quote: EdBowie Catch them, how? After the fact? That reads as though you are seriously advocating that victims should simply be 'rape bait'. EB, I am sure you will be delighted to hear that I have nominated your post for a prize in the CM Annual Sheer Unadulterated Stupidest Post competition (Retarded Anemone category). While the competition is fierce, I'm sure your post will breeze it in.

tweakabelle -> RE: One reason an American might wish to own a gun... (10/26/2013 11:57:50 PM)
Bama, it might be you that isn't getting the point. "Arming [the] wife" is a euphemism for arming women 24/7, not something that a great many women will be comfortable with. I'm sure that many other women will feel as I do - that the image of an armed woman dropping the kids off at school, or doing the shopping is incongruous to the point of eerie, almost sinister. That is not what raising children is about. So, for the idea to even get past first base you need to find women who are prepared to be armed 24/7 (even around children), prepared to use their weapons (even in front of children), ...etc. It just won't work. And it totally ignores the fact that a lot of rapes are carried by other family members or people well known, even trusted by the victim. IMHO those men who want to help preventing rape would be far productive if they focused their efforts on eliminating tolerance of any form of violence against women by males generally, instead of strutting about loudly proclaiming their gun-boosted machismo and 'Dirty Harry' fantasies.

NoBimbosAllowed -> RE: One reason an American might wish to own a gun... (10/27/2013 12:05:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: EdBowie Nobody forced you to choose the exact the words you posted. And the plain reading of your post about after the fact arrests being the preferred outcome over using force against criminals, is that women should not prevent rapists, abusers, etc. from committing their crimes. If that wasn't what you meant, you would have explained so... Your childish rant in response to a simple request for clarification, provides nothing useful. quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle quote: EdBowie Catch them, how? After the fact? That reads as though you are seriously advocating that victims should simply be 'rape bait'. EB, I am sure you will be delighted to hear that I have nominated your post for a prize in the CM Annual Sheer Unadulterated Stupidest Post competition (Retarded Anemone category). While the competition is fierce, I'm sure your post will breeze it in. It all comes down to which suburb you live in. Or tweaks lives in. VERY easy to preach from the protected pulpits of Rose Bay or a hih rise apartment in Potts Point or a cushy coastal pad in Clovelly or a wankfest wannabe academic's beach-house in Wollonngong, where no-one worries about being shot, in Australia. Campbelltown and Blacktown and Parramatta and Logan and Footscray in Australia are a VERY DIFFERENT MATTER. That's the difference between living in San Anselmo, in Marin, and the bad avenues of Oakland, and I mean like a bad night on MacArthur Avenue in Oakland. That's like the difference between Chavtown and Exeter. Maybe before anyone from Oz wants to bitch about gun control, they can state the gun-danger in the place where they have to open their front door. I'm betting Tweaks has never even walked from Alexandria through Redfern through to Hyde Park, during the early morning, much less spent any time at all near Macquarrie Fields. ask her, during your next interchange. I've been in the good sections AND the bad ones, and I can say, gun-control comments from people in Australia who've never even faced a quasi-shady suburb's challenges, commenting on gun control in the USA, is like a 19 year old Nun speaking on the emotional cost of starring in hard-core porn. Has Tweaks or any other Aussie even LIVED in ANY state of the USA, and known what the reality of that is? No? SHUT UP.

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: One reason an American might wish to own a gun... (10/27/2013 12:31:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD I don't think you follow lovemuffins point. Arming his wife will not protect every woman, just his wife. Those who choose not to take precautions clearly will not be protected. Nobody wants to live in and armed camp. But nobody wants to be raped either. And to complete that illusion... For everyone to protect their partners means to arm them... and for everone to protect themselves means to arm themselves. Ergo, for pany sort of protection, anywhere, you need to be armed. Might as well live in an Army camp! We are not so amused at living such a life so we take away the guns from Joe Public. And an interesting statistic for you - you are 668x more likely to die a gun-related death in the US than you are in the UK Now, I'm not advocating that rape isn't serious; it is extremely serious, for either gender. But, you aren't likely to die from being raped.... generally speaking. But if you have guns everywhere then you are quite likely to be raped by some asshat carrying a gun. You are also more likely to become a gun-death statistic from trying to defend yourself from sick bastards that don't get to rape their victim. Lets face it, rape is a crime that doesn't lend itself to opportunists. They go out with the actual intent to rape their victim and are frequently ready and more alert than the subject of their crime. So unless you live on the edge of your wits carrying a loaded gun 24/7, your perpetrator is going to have the upper hand virtually every time. Do you really think that arming people with the higher potential of being a death statistic is the answer?? I seriously don't think so. I also don't think that carrying a gun is any more successful at preventing most rapes either. ETA: quote: ORIGINAL: NoBimbosAllowed Has Tweaks or any other Aussie even LIVED in ANY state of the USA, and known what the reality of that is? No? SHUT UP. I have lived in 2 states of the USA (not a holiday) and I find the notion of guns everywhere very scary indeed. It also contributed to more than 75% of the reason why we didn't go to live there.

BamaD -> RE: One reason an American might wish to own a gun... (10/27/2013 12:40:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD I don't think you follow lovemuffins point. Arming his wife will not protect every woman, just his wife. Those who choose not to take precautions clearly will not be protected. Nobody wants to live in and armed camp. But nobody wants to be raped either. And to complete that illusion... For everyone to protect their partners means to arm them... and for everone to protect themselves means to arm themselves. Ergo, for pany sort of protection, anywhere, you need to be armed. Might as well live in an Army camp! We are not so amused at living such a life so we take away the guns from Joe Public. And an interesting statistic for you - you are 668x more likely to die a gun-related death in the US than you are in the UK Now, I'm not advocating that rape isn't serious; it is extremely serious, for either gender. But, you aren't likely to die from being raped.... generally speaking. But if you have guns everywhere then you are quite likely to be raped by some asshat carrying a gun. You are also more likely to become a gun-death statistic from trying to defend yourself from sick bastards that don't get to rape their victim. Lets face it, rape is a crime that doesn't lend itself to opportunists. They go out with the actual intent to rape their victim and are frequently ready and more alert than the subject of their crime. So unless you live on the edge of your wits carrying a loaded gun 24/7, your perpetrator is going to have the upper hand virtually every time. Do you really think that arming people with the higher potential of being a death statistic is the answer?? I seriously don't think so. I also don't think that carrying a gun is any more successful at preventing most rapes either. ETA: quote: ORIGINAL: NoBimbosAllowed Has Tweaks or any other Aussie even LIVED in ANY state of the USA, and known what the reality of that is? No? SHUT UP. I have lived in 2 states of the USA (not a holiday) and I find the notion of guns everywhere very scary indeed. It also contributed to more than 75% of the reason why we didn't go to live there. You could have summed it up much more briefly. Be a victim. Those nice criminals will let you live. Everything else is the misrepresentation of statistics that you have been fed since birth.

BamaD -> RE: One reason an American might wish to own a gun... (10/27/2013 12:41:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle Bama, it might be you that isn't getting the point. "Arming [the] wife" is a euphemism for arming women 24/7, not something that a great many women will be comfortable with. I'm sure that many other women will feel as I do - that the image of an armed woman dropping the kids off at school, or doing the shopping is incongruous to the point of eerie, almost sinister. That is not what raising children is about. So, for the idea to even get past first base you need to find women who are prepared to be armed 24/7 (even around children), prepared to use their weapons (even in front of children), ...etc. It just won't work. And it totally ignores the fact that a lot of rapes are carried by other family members or people well known, even trusted by the victim. IMHO those men who want to help preventing rape would be far productive if they focused their efforts on eliminating tolerance of any form of violence against women by males generally, instead of strutting about loudly proclaiming their gun-boosted machismo and 'Dirty Harry' fantasies. My late wife had a permit well before I did. And no her death was not gun related.

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: One reason an American might wish to own a gun... (10/27/2013 12:45:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD You could have summed it up much more briefly. Be a victim. Those nice criminals will let you live. Everything else is the misrepresentation of statistics that you have been fed since birth. At least I would be alive to tell the tale and prosecute the fucking criminal!!! In the US, I'd more likely be DEAD and the asshat would almost certainly get clean away. And you are wishing this on most rape victims??? Sheeesh.... get a grip. This is why us living people here laugh at your incredibly high gun-related death rates. I'd sooner be alive than dead thank you very much.

lovmuffin -> RE: One reason an American might wish to own a gun... (10/27/2013 12:47:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle Bama, it might be you that isn't getting the point. "Arming [the] wife" is a euphemism for arming women 24/7, not something that a great many women will be comfortable with. I'm sure that many other women will feel as I do - that the image of an armed woman dropping the kids off at school, or doing the shopping is incongruous to the point of eerie, almost sinister. That is not what raising children is about. So, for the idea to even get past first base you need to find women who are prepared to be armed 24/7 (even around children), prepared to use their weapons (even in front of children), ...etc. It just won't work. And it totally ignores the fact that a lot of rapes are carried by other family members or people well known, even trusted by the victim. IMHO those men who want to help preventing rape would be far productive if they focused their efforts on eliminating tolerance of any form of violence against women by males generally, instead of strutting about loudly proclaiming their gun-boosted machismo and 'Dirty Harry' fantasies. Many women do feel the way you do, many don't. So what, it's a personal choice. Rape prevention and other types of personal violent crime prevention for that matter is as much or more about avoiding situations that put you at risk as it is being armed. If ya run around town drunk after midnight going into dive bars your odds of getting raped, mugged, your ass beat or all 3 go way up. There are a number of things you can do to enhance personal security in the home too. Get decent locks for doors and windows and lock them at night, get a dog, even a little yappy one will warn of strangers and many other things. If all else fails, a firearm comes in real handy. If someone comes in the middle of the night trying to take off with your kid you'll be thankful you have one. I don't know where to begin on that last paragraph. Maybe you could tell us how to go about eliminating tolerance of violence against women in other males. That sort of thing is supposed to be done by parents in raising their children.

BamaD -> RE: One reason an American might wish to own a gun... (10/27/2013 12:50:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD You could have summed it up much more briefly. Be a victim. Those nice criminals will let you live. Everything else is the misrepresentation of statistics that you have been fed since birth. At least I would be alive to tell the tale and prosecute the fucking criminal!!! In the US, I'd more likely be DEAD and the asshat would almost certainly get clean away. And you are wishing this on most rape victims??? Sheeesh.... get a grip. This is why us living people here laugh at your incredibly high gun-related death rates. I'd sooner be alive than dead thank you very much. That is the lie they have been feeding you, I have no doubt that that you believe every word of it and that this DOES NOT constitute a lie on your part.

tj444 -> RE: One reason an American might wish to own a gun... (10/27/2013 12:51:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NoBimbosAllowed Has Tweaks or any other Aussie even LIVED in ANY state of the USA, and known what the reality of that is? No? SHUT UP. I am not an Aussie, I am a Canadian (can you say gun control?) and I have lived in a variety of places in the US.. I have looked at the crime stats in various areas, looked at the sex offenders websites and there isn't one area that doesn't have a sex offender in the area.. even the best safest area I have ever found still has 3 sex offenders in its gated guarded community.. Quite frankly, its not strangers that scare me, if I had a partner that had a gun in the house, that to me is scarier & riskier.. and I don't date nutbars either.. When a guy tells me he owns a gun, I cant help but see him in a different light & reconsider dating the guy.. And a dude has no idea what its like to be a female and face the dangers women face.. I, as a female, am the best person to decide if I want or don't want a gun where I live or any where near me.. "The U.S. Department of Justice has found that women are far more likely to be the victims of violent crimes committed by intimate partners than men, especially when a weapon is involved. Moreover, women are much more likely to be victimized at home than in any other place." While two thirds of women who own guns acquired them “primarily for protection against crime,” the results of a California analysis show that “purchasing a handgun provides no protection against homicide among women and is associated with an increase in their risk for intimate partner homicide.”5 A 2003 study about the risks of firearms in the home found that females living with a gun in the home were nearly three times more likely to be murdered than females with no gun in the home. Finally, another study reports, women who were murdered were more likely, not less likely, to have purchased a handgun in the three years prior to their deaths, again invalidating the idea that a handgun has a protective effect against homicide. http://www.vpc.org/studies/wmmw2010.pdf

TheHeretic -> RE: One reason an American might wish to own a gun... (10/27/2013 12:53:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle You will be entitled to a response (and get one) after you have apologised and withdrawn the vicious and totally unfounded abuse you directed at me last time we communicated. Glad to hear it still stings. The truth is my favorite whip. [;)] So just here to throw rocks then? That the plan if someone like this moves into your block of flats? Fling a guilt trip at him, perhaps?

BamaD -> RE: One reason an American might wish to own a gun... (10/27/2013 12:56:25 AM)
I, as a female, am the best person to decide if I want or don't want a gun where I live or any where near me.. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So are those women who want to own one. You can find a study to prove anything, I once saw one that "proved" that the U S was still owned by the King of England.

KMsAngel -> RE: One reason an American might wish to own a gun... (10/27/2013 12:59:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NoBimbosAllowed Has Tweaks or any other Aussie even LIVED in ANY state of the USA, and known what the reality of that is? No? SHUT UP. yes. i have. i lived in the states for about half my life, the other half over here. i've lived in san diego, i've lived in western sydney. i've had a kid in san diego and i've had one over here. i currently live with nice houses on one side of me and housing commission on the other side. my dad used to do gun safety classes when i was growing up. i used to help him. at least once that i know of, an idiot young male made an off the cuff remark that didn't sound right coming from someone holding a gun. he flunked the class. when i lived in western sydney, we got an akita. scarily big dog, soft as an overripe banana with the family, deep menacing growl with strangers. scary sh$t to strangers. intentionally. my ex had PTSD and got a 9mm in the states. he scared me more (and how many veterans exactly like him are running around armed with unknown triggers) than an unknown attacker, and i loved him dearly. i'd a thousand times live over here, where guns aren't the rule for homeowners (it's a hella lot harder to get guns here) and though there are still killings by guns, not a fraction of what many states over there have. even living in a neighbourhood where (i discovered later) had 2 bikie gangs in somewhat close proximity, i wasn't as afraid for my life or my kids' lives as if i'd continued to live in san diego. so yes. i know of what i speak. and be polite, please, NBA, you can make your point without being rude.

BamaD -> RE: One reason an American might wish to own a gun... (10/27/2013 1:00:18 AM)
women who were murdered were more likely, not less likely, to have purchased a handgun in the three years prior to their deaths ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Because women who are being threatened are far more likely to get a firearm so this stat is totally misleading.

tj444 -> RE: One reason an American might wish to own a gun... (10/27/2013 1:02:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD I, as a female, am the best person to decide if I want or don't want a gun where I live or any where near me.. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So are those women who want to own one. You can find a study to prove anything, I once saw one that "proved" that the U S was still owned by the King of England. I never said I was speaking for anyone other than myself.. I expect other women to be adult enough to make their own decisions, either way.. The stats and study I quoted was from the U.S. Department of Justice.. I expect them to be pretty accurate...

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: One reason an American might wish to own a gun... (10/27/2013 1:05:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD That is the lie they have been feeding you, I have no doubt that that you believe every word of it and that this DOES NOT constitute a lie on your part. Not a lie at all. Having lived in both countries, I know where I feel much safer and not likely to die prematurely. quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD I, as a female, am the best person to decide if I want or don't want a gun where I live or any where near me.. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So are those women who want to own one. And you would only have that opinion if you lived in a country that is prolific with guns. You wouldn't even be thinking along those lines if you lived elsewhere. quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD You can find a study to prove anything, I once saw one that "proved" that the U S was still owned by the King of England. Citation please?? And considering we haven't had a 'king' for more than 6 decades, I think you might find that a tad difficult to substatiate.

tj444 -> RE: One reason an American might wish to own a gun... (10/27/2013 1:08:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD women who were murdered were more likely, not less likely, to have purchased a handgun in the three years prior to their deaths ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Because women who are being threatened are far more likely to get a firearm so this stat is totally misleading. assuming that they were being threatened prior to purchasing (& you have no stats or link providing any proof of that), having a gun didn't save them.. and I wonder how many of them were killed with their own guns.. [8\|]

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: One reason an American might wish to own a gun... (10/27/2013 1:10:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD women who were murdered were more likely, not less likely, to have purchased a handgun in the three years prior to their deaths ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Because women who are being threatened are far more likely to get a firearm so this stat is totally misleading. Actually, I think that stat is rather poignant. You get threatened (probably by some asshat with a gun).... So you buy a gun for yourself.... And you have now increased your chances of being killed because of it. And they say guns are the answer??? Oh the irony!! I guess it's lost on the likes of Bama.

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