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RE: One reason an American might wish to own a gun... - 10/27/2013 5:00:40 PM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie
What is unknown is whether had one of his victims been armed would the outcome have potential to be different. How can you possibly address that in any other way than admitting to the possibility.

And you can prove that every single one of his victims, successful as well as failed attempts, were all unarmed and being armed would have had a different outcome if they were??

That's an awful lot of supposition and assumption on your part just to enforce your idea that a gun would have prevented such a crime.
Add to that the DoJ statement that the mere fact of owning a gun is more likely to get you killed, is surely a good counter-argument that having a gun isn't such a good idea.

I find it amusing that pro-gun advocaters always push the idea that getting a gun, or more guns, is the answer to everything.
Just look at your gun death figures.... they are absolutely staggering.
They are higher than virtually any war created and greater than any current war-torn region on this planet.
That alone should tell you that your pro-gun culture makes the US one of the worst places to be at any point in time and proposing more guns to cure the nation's crimes isn't going to solve them.

(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 101
RE: One reason an American might wish to own a gun... - 10/27/2013 5:02:45 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


Because, despite the prolification of guns, he was a lot more prepared and aware than most of his victims.
This is exactly my point. Having a gun doesn't give you the upper hand in most situations.
So back to an earlier question: how is one more gun going to stop this asshat from re-offending?




I did see the question answered, Freedomdwarf, if you didn't. I'll paraphrase a bit, to account for the training I've had. By painting the wall of the hall with his innards, if he sets foot in any home he isn't invited into. It could also be done with an old gun.

Straight up. This guy is moving in next door to your mom/sister/girl you love desperately, but were pushed into the friend zone because you were too much of a pussy to make it happen. Typical response time from the cops is 15 minutes. What changes might you want to see in the household?



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Profile   Post #: 102
RE: One reason an American might wish to own a gun... - 10/27/2013 5:10:36 PM   
Yachtie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie
What is unknown is whether had one of his victims been armed would the outcome have potential to be different. How can you possibly address that in any other way than admitting to the possibility.


And you can prove that every single one of his victims, successful as well as failed attempts, were all unarmed and being armed would have had a different outcome if they were??



The same mantra, over and over again. I can't prove one damn thing as to your crap above. But I damn well know an armed victim has a better chance than an unarmed one. So much has been posted on that and people like you continually ignore it.


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(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 103
RE: One reason an American might wish to own a gun... - 10/27/2013 5:13:37 PM   
freedomdwarf1


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Joined: 10/23/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


Because, despite the prolification of guns, he was a lot more prepared and aware than most of his victims.
This is exactly my point. Having a gun doesn't give you the upper hand in most situations.
So back to an earlier question: how is one more gun going to stop this asshat from re-offending?




I did see the question answered, Freedomdwarf, if you didn't. I'll paraphrase a bit, to account for the training I've had. By painting the wall of the hall with his innards, if he sets foot in any home he isn't invited into. It could also be done with an old gun.

Straight up. This guy is moving in next door to your mom/sister/girl you love desperately, but were pushed into the friend zone because you were too much of a pussy to make it happen. Typical response time from the cops is 15 minutes. What changes might you want to see in the household?



I didn't see the question asnwered because it wasn't.
This serial rapist is still alive - he isn't plastered all over the walls is he? No.
So that question has not been answered except by rhetoric and tin-hattery.

And no, this guy isn't being moved into any home next door to any of my relatives either.
So I can only answer by way of giving example to what a similar scenario happened over here. The local residents got onto the local police and forced them to re-house the evel fucker away from residential areas with the threat that "some vigilante group" was going to kill him if they didn't (and they probably would have too). I do know the criminal was relocated and I think he ended up in some secure residential unit out of the way of the public even though technically he had served his sentence and was a free man.... technically.

And I still say, having a gun would not stop the serial rapist from striking again.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 104
RE: One reason an American might wish to own a gun... - 10/27/2013 5:16:29 PM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie
The same mantra, over and over again. I can't prove one damn thing as to your crap above. But I damn well know an armed victim has a better chance than an unarmed one. So much has been posted on that and people like you continually ignore it.

No, we continually prove to you that a pro-gun culture creates a vast number of unnecessary deaths by guns.
The figures bear that out no matter where you look comparing other countries - even war-torn ones.
It is you that are ignoring that glaring fact.

ETA: Even your early presidents finally realised that a growing number of war weapons (particularly nuclear ones) was a futile exercise. Why won't the individual Americans realise the same thing??


< Message edited by freedomdwarf1 -- 10/27/2013 5:18:24 PM >

(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 105
RE: One reason an American might wish to own a gun... - 10/27/2013 5:23:39 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie
The same mantra, over and over again. I can't prove one damn thing as to your crap above. But I damn well know an armed victim has a better chance than an unarmed one. So much has been posted on that and people like you continually ignore it.

No, we continually prove to you that a pro-gun culture creates a vast number of unnecessary deaths by guns.
The figures bear that out no matter where you look comparing other countries - even war-torn ones.
It is you that are ignoring that glaring fact.

ETA: Even your early presidents finally realised that a growing number of war weapons (particularly nuclear ones) was a futile exercise. Why won't the individual Americans realise the same thing??


There were no nukes during the era of our early presidents

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 106
RE: One reason an American might wish to own a gun... - 10/27/2013 5:24:25 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		That is a cowardly, and chickenshit non-answer, Freedomdwarf. Now the people in Lake LA, and the rest of the valley for that matter, are coming together and will fight the decision all the way, but this could happen.

The hypothetical that obviously terrifies so many here is this: The rapist IS being placed in immediate proximity to a home with a woman you love in it. What would you want to change about the household?

There is no hidden trick in the question. Just answer it.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 107
RE: One reason an American might wish to own a gun... - 10/27/2013 5:29:03 PM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie
The same mantra, over and over again. I can't prove one damn thing as to your crap above. But I damn well know an armed victim has a better chance than an unarmed one. So much has been posted on that and people like you continually ignore it.

No, we continually prove to you that a pro-gun culture creates a vast number of unnecessary deaths by guns.
The figures bear that out no matter where you look comparing other countries - even war-torn ones.
It is you that are ignoring that glaring fact.

ETA: Even your early presidents finally realised that a growing number of war weapons (particularly nuclear ones) was a futile exercise. Why won't the individual Americans realise the same thing??


There were no nukes during the era of our early presidents

Oh really??

Wiki: "The atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki and the end of World War II quickly followed the Trinity test, and the Little Boy device was detonated over the Japanese city of Hiroshima on 6 August 1945. Exploding with a yield equivalent to 12,500 tonnes of TNT, the blast and thermal wave of the bomb destroyed nearly 50,000 buildings and killed approximately 75,000 people. Subsequently, the world’s nuclear weapons stockpiles grew."
- and -
"On June 12, 1982, one million people demonstrated in New York City's Central Park against nuclear weapons and for an end to the cold war arms race. It was the largest anti-nuclear protest and the largest political demonstration in American history"

So no nukes, huh??

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 108
RE: One reason an American might wish to own a gun... - 10/27/2013 5:31:16 PM   
freedomdwarf1


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Joined: 10/23/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

That is a cowardly, and chickenshit non-answer, Freedomdwarf. Now the people in Lake LA, and the rest of the valley for that matter, are coming together and will fight the decision all the way, but this could happen.

The hypothetical that obviously terrifies so many here is this: The rapist IS being placed in immediate proximity to a home with a woman you love in it. What would you want to change about the household?

There is no hidden trick in the question. Just answer it.

I did answer it.... I'd be in that group that got the evil fucker rehoused away from residential areas.
I would certainly NOT advocate even more guns.

ETA: Our law-making process allows for the relocation to happen.
Maybe yours doesn't??  How sick and fucked-up is that??


< Message edited by freedomdwarf1 -- 10/27/2013 5:32:54 PM >

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 109
RE: One reason an American might wish to own a gun... - 10/27/2013 5:45:06 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		And you would only have that opinion if you lived in a country that is prolific with guns.
You wouldn't even be thinking along those lines if you lived elsewhere.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That would be other than the U S, you can't even understand your own words.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 110
RE: One reason an American might wish to own a gun... - 10/27/2013 5:49:56 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin
I don't live in a comic book LMAO Just the sort of emotional nonsense I would expect from anti gun people.

And you are mistaken about assailants having the upper hand. The only way for that to happen is a first time gun owner buys a gun and puts it in a drawer or wherever and never fires or learns to use it. It does happen and if it ever comes down to needing it she might freeze up and get it taken away. With a little range time, at least once, that won't be a problem. The only other problem is waking up with the assailant having the drop on you. No problem there if you lock your doors and windows at night he will make noise and you will awake an retrieve your weapon. At that point, knowing someone is in your house somewhere, the advantage is yours. A yappy dog is even better. String some freakin cans for him to trip over if you have to or whatever. Other security precautions and considerations go hand in hand with having a gun for protection. What's so hard about that ? Would you rather have the means to defend yourself if someone intrudes with the intent to rape or hope he doesn't kill you when he's done ?? How does owning a firearm give an assailant the advantage ? I'm not getting the logic for that.

Maybe you don't read the news or even bothered to properly read my earlier post.
We aren't talking about being indoors inside a locked-up house when the assailant tries to break in.
A lot of the rapes either happen outside, where your assailant would most certainly have the upper hand (being prepared and doing the stalking etc). Or, indoors where the assailant is known to the victim and again, would have the upper hand in preparedness.

So my point is, having a gun really doesn't help most rape victims any more than carrying pepper spray or anything else - which was also tweak's point.
And tj pointed out from the DoJ, just by having a gun increases your chances of getting killed.
Ergo, getting or having a gun for rape protection is just adding to nightmare rather than finding a cure for it.

So your strawman about a very particular incident really pales into insignificance when compared the general problem.


Funny because DOJ says that twice as many crimes are stopped with guns as are committed with them.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 111
RE: One reason an American might wish to own a gun... - 10/27/2013 5:51:14 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
Maybe you don't read the news or even bothered to properly read my earlier post.



And maybe you didn't bother to read where the thread started. The individual in question likes to rape women in their own homes. He's committed rapes in other places, but that was the method for the majority of his attacks.

I have yet to see even one of those opposed to guns come out with an answer for what changes they might wish to make in their household, should a judge decide to put someone like this in next door to them.

And why do you think this monster got away with being a serial rapist for so long??

Because, despite the prolification of guns, he was a lot more prepared and aware than most of his victims.
This is exactly my point. Having a gun doesn't give you the upper hand in most situations.
So back to an earlier question: how is one more gun going to stop this asshat from re-offending?


None of his victims were armed or fought back.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 10/27/2013 5:54:01 PM >

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 112
RE: One reason an American might wish to own a gun... - 10/27/2013 5:52:48 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
This is exactly my point. Having a gun doesn't give you the upper hand in most situations.
So back to an earlier question: how is one more gun going to stop this asshat from re-offending?



What is unknown is whether had one of his victims been armed would the outcome have potential to be different. How can you possibly address that in any other way than admitting to the possibility.


Because his mind is made up and there is no point clouding the issue with facts.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 113
RE: One reason an American might wish to own a gun... - 10/27/2013 5:53:40 PM   
TheHeretic


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Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
I'd be in that group that got the evil fucker rehoused away from residential areas.



That group doesn't exist in the hypothetical. Another cowardly fail.


More in general, what's really funny here is that the best first line of home defense has already been mentioned several times in the thread, and none of the anti-gun zealots have even picked up on it.

You are allowed to have dogs in the Commonwealth, aren't you? Noisy alarm systems? Security lights? Locks on the windows?





_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 114
RE: One reason an American might wish to own a gun... - 10/27/2013 5:56:38 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		Was laughing at you being so facile Rich... Ask a woman who HAS been raped..... 99% Of them AFTER the fact dont have a gun(outside of america of course)

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Profile   Post #: 115
RE: One reason an American might wish to own a gun... - 10/27/2013 5:56:42 PM   
freedomdwarf1


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Joined: 10/23/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
That would be other than the U S, you can't even understand your own words.

I understand my words perfectly.
It would appear that you don't or unwilling to.

Just look at the gun stats for anywhere else in the world.
You have higher gun deaths than even war-torn countries.
That should tell you something that your pro-gun culture isn't so rosy as you paint.
We (as in non-Americans) can all see it, pro-gun Americans don't seem to be able to.
So who is the slow-thinking neanderthal??
That's why neanderthals died out and others became the ruling hominid species.
We realised our mistake (as did other countries) and we outlawed guns for Joe Public.
Our gun deaths per capita are a mere fraction of that of the USA since then.
Go figure.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 116
RE: One reason an American might wish to own a gun... - 10/27/2013 5:59:21 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
That would be other than the U S, you can't even understand your own words.

I understand my words perfectly.
It would appear that you don't or unwilling to.

Just look at the gun stats for anywhere else in the world.
You have higher gun deaths than even war-torn countries.
That should tell you something that your pro-gun culture isn't so rosy as you paint.
We (as in non-Americans) can all see it, pro-gun Americans don't seem to be able to.
So who is the slow-thinking neanderthal??
That's why neanderthals died out and others became the ruling hominid species.
We realised our mistake (as did other countries) and we outlawed guns for Joe Public.
Our gun deaths per capita are a mere fraction of that of the USA since then.
Go figure.


In this country more crimes are prevented with guns than are committed with them, and clearly you are.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 117
RE: One reason an American might wish to own a gun... - 10/27/2013 5:59:54 PM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
I'd be in that group that got the evil fucker rehoused away from residential areas.

That group doesn't exist in the hypothetical. Another cowardly fail.


More in general, what's really funny here is that the best first line of home defense has already been mentioned several times in the thread, and none of the anti-gun zealots have even picked up on it.

You are allowed to have dogs in the Commonwealth, aren't you? Noisy alarm systems? Security lights? Locks on the windows?

Actually, that crowd DID exist in real life and got a serial rapist rehoused elsewhere away from residents. That happened in Essex, not far from me.

Yes, we have dogs, we have noisy alarms, security lights, locked windows.... in fact everything you have except guns.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 118
RE: One reason an American might wish to own a gun... - 10/27/2013 6:02:07 PM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
In this country more crimes are prevented with guns than are committed with them, and clearly you are.

Citation please??
Because we don't hear that on any of that in the news we see over here - including US news channels.


(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: One reason an American might wish to own a gun... - 10/27/2013 6:04:01 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
In this country more crimes are prevented with guns than are committed with them, and clearly you are.

Citation please??
Because we don't hear that on any of that in the news we see over here - including US news channels.



The same doj figures you were so proud of if you hadn't been cherry picking to prove a point that is wrong.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 120
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