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RE: OBAMA LIED!!! - 11/4/2013 2:51:10 PM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KYsissy

The company I work for has gone with a self insureance model. Banded together with about 30 other small companies they joined something called a "captive". Basically all the companies pay several hundred thousand dollars to join, The plan is through Aetna. As I understand it, the pool of money pays forrun of the mill type claims and only in the event if a major major claim, there is a very high deductable catastrophic type policy with Aetna.

Now extend that thinking so every single company across the US joins that 'captive'.
Just imagine, if you can, the bulk purchasing power it would have.
Big pharma says "we want $150 for X box of pills".
The captive can say.... "fuck off!! If you want to sell a guaranteed 50 billion boxes per year into a preferential group of customers, we're only going to pay you $70 a box... take it or leave it".
And when hospitals need to upgrade medical scanners?
Manufacturer says "they are $30m each". The captive says "fuck off! If you want guaranteed sales of 3,000 machines across the US, we're only going to pay $15m each for them".
If there are very few sales opportunities beyond the captive, those companies soon back down and opt for guaranteed sales at a much lower per-unit price.
The captive save a fucking fortune for its customers and thus keeps premiums much lower for the same service and the same profit levels.

That's pretty much how a single-payer system works to hammer down prices and maintain better services (generally) than a profit-driven private system.
In an example that I gave to Desi elsewhere, our local hospital upgraded their medical scanner for less than half it would have cost the private BUPA hospital just up the road from us (who, incidentally, didn't buy it because of the price).

quote:

ORIGINAL: KYsissy

And personally, i LOVE my high deductable HSA plan. I pay for everything 100% until i hit the out of pocket limit, then I pay nothing.

So... how about a plan where you don't pay a single red cent and get the same benefits??

quote:

ORIGINAL: KYsissy
So for regular doctor visits, the occasionap injury or illness. i pay.

We pay nothing. It's free.

quote:

ORIGINAL: KYsissy
But in the event of something major, the most i am on the hook for is $3000 per year. Why this type of plan is disparaged i cannot understand.

That's probably more than Joe Average here pays in additional taxes to get a completey free health service.

quote:

ORIGINAL: KYsissy
If you do the math, it is a good deal in most cases.

When compared to FREE, it's expensive.

quote:

ORIGINAL: KYsissy
Problem is, many dont do the math. One gal in our insurance meeting was saying no way to the HSA because she has a prescription that costs her $130 per month if she had to buy it outright. Doing the math, she would save $50/month on the HSA versus a plan with prescription copays. I wonder what a subsidized HSA plan would do for the poor?

For us, the poor get it for free.
Don't need a subsidised plan for that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: KYsissy
I think obamacare is a train wreck. But i also do not like a society where uncle Jim and Aunt Sally have to lose everything because one of them got sick.
I don't have all the answers, nobody does. This law was rammed through at a time becuse they could ram it through. Is it better than nothing? I guess time will tell.

I agree. Obamacare looks to be a train wreck from over here too.
The problem is, he's trying to shoe-horn a half-hearted healthcare plan into a doomed private healthcare system. I just can't see it working terribly well.


< Message edited by freedomdwarf1 -- 11/4/2013 3:00:56 PM >

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RE: OBAMA LIED!!! - 11/4/2013 3:06:59 PM   
KYsissy


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Nothing is free. You are paying one way or another. What is your tax rate and what is your income? Mine is roughly 30%. If you are poor and recieving government benefits then it may be free to you, but someone is paying for it.

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RE: OBAMA LIED!!! - 11/4/2013 3:11:46 PM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KYsissy

Nothing is free. You are paying one way or another. What is your tax rate and what is your income? Mine is roughly 30%. If you are poor and recieving government benefits then it may be free to you, but someone is paying for it.

True, it isn't actually 'free' as such - working people pay for it in their taxes.
Our tax rate is 20% and for many on lower incomes, it is only 10% tax rate.

Still cheaper than what you are paying and we don't pay extra for healthcare.

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RE: OBAMA LIED!!! - 11/4/2013 4:50:12 PM   
Phydeaux


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The problem is - we're paying for your healthcare too.
The companies develop for the US market - meet US standards, and then other countries trust the FDA and don't cost share.

its sort of like the joint strike fighter.
We should forbid export of the drug to any country that isn't sharing in the development cost.

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RE: OBAMA LIED!!! - 11/4/2013 5:02:53 PM   
Lucylastic


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RE: OBAMA LIED!!! - 11/4/2013 8:14:54 PM   
KYsissy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: KYsissy

Nothing is free. You are paying one way or another. What is your tax rate and what is your income? Mine is roughly 30%. If you are poor and recieving government benefits then it may be free to you, but someone is paying for it.

True, it isn't actually 'free' as such - working people pay for it in their taxes.
Our tax rate is 20% and for many on lower incomes, it is only 10% tax rate.

Still cheaper than what you are paying and we don't pay extra for healthcare.

we
Well maybe cheaper than what I am personally paying, but for many it will be more. A large percentage of the population pay no income tax and yet recieve a "tax refund". The end result is that the middle class, yet again, will bear the brunt of what ever costs are associated with the program. People like to say sock it to the rich but the reality is there just are not enough rich people.

And really, our personal anecdotes do not tell much of a story.

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RE: OBAMA LIED!!! - 11/4/2013 8:26:51 PM   
tammystarm


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Yikes! It's about and around 47 percent. This is less than 50 percent so we are good, right? This means there are more haves than have nots and so President Obama can take from the haves and give to the not having. This reminds me of Robin Hoodie. He did wealth redistribution in ye old England in not so merry times. Except I recall even the poor were taxed and got nothing then and even the middle class were helped by our hero Robin, so I guess the Robin Hood thing is not exactly Obama Hood. Besides, Robin Hood shoots straight.

< Message edited by tammystarm -- 11/4/2013 8:32:14 PM >


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RE: OBAMA LIED!!! - 11/4/2013 8:41:09 PM   
tammystarm


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Ya know, it's kinda hard to take over the health system in a free country by telling the truth. I mean, you can't just come out and say I'm going to make all of you who pay for insurance now, pay more so we can pay the health costs for those who don't or can't, so I guess it's because of all of you who worked hard to get where you are now and might not want to pay for that guy and gal or family of six with the 75 inch TV in their project house and who sleep in each morning while you go to work, it is you who cause President Obama and his minions to lie about the Affordable Care Act and how it will not let you keep your insurance and doctor because silly you, you need to pay more for those who pay nothing, simple as that and it always was. So, get over it and hand it over and be sure to vote Dem again in 2014.

< Message edited by tammystarm -- 11/4/2013 8:45:51 PM >


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RE: OBAMA LIED!!! - 11/4/2013 8:48:08 PM   
tammystarm


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Yikes, I just handed the Dems their new winning campaign slogan: "So, get over it and hand it over and be sure to vote Dem again in 2014"



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RE: OBAMA LIED!!! - 11/4/2013 8:53:01 PM   
tammystarm


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You in the Starbucks voter block should really love my slogan even though Obamacare will cost you, and you and the coffee habit will be hurting. I feel your pain. Obama feels your pain.

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RE: OBAMA LIED!!! - 11/4/2013 10:16:24 PM   
Tkman117


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I know this is a liberal show, and I bet there are inconsistencies, but I thought I'd leave this here anyways and see what you guys think.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3aUJm--ifs

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RE: OBAMA LIED!!! - 11/5/2013 1:17:31 AM   
Phydeaux


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Fundamentally,
Americans were told they were going to keep their insurance if they liked it.
fundamentally, they didn't sign on for a trillion dollar tax hike

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RE: OBAMA LIED!!! - 11/5/2013 2:27:19 AM   
joether


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tammystarm
Yikes! It's about and around 47 percent. This is less than 50 percent so we are good, right? This means there are more haves than have nots and so President Obama can take from the haves and give to the not having. This reminds me of Robin Hoodie. He did wealth redistribution in ye old England in not so merry times. Except I recall even the poor were taxed and got nothing then and even the middle class were helped by our hero Robin, so I guess the Robin Hood thing is not exactly Obama Hood. Besides, Robin Hood shoots straight.


47%, eh? You should really UPDATE your facts. Its currently 2013, NOT, 2009 (and almost 2014!). There are more people working, the unemployment rate is much lower them it was in 2009. The stock markets are booming. And the nation is every growing, slowly but surely. The 47% number is used by many conservatives because they feel that number exists in a vacuum and cant never change. No, the current percentage is around the mid to high 30's. When the economy is doing well it'll be around the high 20's and low 30's.

But I find it curious you can not show the man an ounce of respect. That says something about you! I might dislike former President George W. Bush for a whole host of reasons. But unlike you, I show the man due respect. He was a US President of the United States of America. He did serve in the position during tough and trying times for the nation just like past US Presidents. In the future, you might consider to stifle the 'junior high school' attitude', and show some due respect to President.



< Message edited by joether -- 11/5/2013 2:50:08 AM >

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RE: OBAMA LIED!!! - 11/5/2013 2:45:06 AM   
joether


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tammystarm
Ya know, it's kinda hard to take over the health system in a free country by telling the truth. I mean, you can't just come out and say I'm going to make all of you who pay for insurance now, pay more so we can pay the health costs for those who don't or can't, so I guess it's because of all of you who worked hard to get where you are now and might not want to pay for that guy and gal or family of six with the 75 inch TV in their project house and who sleep in each morning while you go to work, it is you who cause President Obama and his minions to lie about the Affordable Care Act and how it will not let you keep your insurance and doctor because silly you, you need to pay more for those who pay nothing, simple as that and it always was. So, get over it and hand it over and be sure to vote Dem again in 2014.


Again, the level of accurate information seems like an unimportant criteria in your bashing viewpoints. The bill was not just created for those who are economically poor or those with pre-existing conditions. Since the healthcare concepts came directly from the Republicans at the end of the last century; it was to focus on small business employees. Unlike large corporations, small businesses had a very hard time finding good affordable health coverage for their employees. Again, unlike large corporations, the owner of the business generally knew all their employees on a first name basis. And there were many instances in which an employee fell very ill or was injured and could not work. Unlike most conservatives in this nation these days, a lot of those business owners did try to help the employee out where they could; but resources were limited. An that nearly 80% of US Jobs are from small business entities, its fair to say who gains the most from the Affordable Care Act.

The President never took over the health care system. Just like he didn't take over GM (go ahead, call me on this....I dare you). The President and Congress were voted in to office in 2000 by....get this...the PEOPLE of the United States. And most of them, utterly sick of the failed Bush White House and Republicans, voted in many Democrats. So 'yes' the nation wanted healthcare coverage. And it got healthcare coverage. A system had to be created and no, it was not perfect. But its a much better system than the one in place before. An Republican/Tea Party folks have not created a plan that is better than the Affordable Care Act. How many people, nation wide, have read the actual law to day?

The really sad this here, is that I know YOU never read the ACA. I read the law. The President didn't lie. It's stated right in the law (I forget the page number off hand), but it explains that 40-67% of current insurance plans would be removed and new ones created that followed the guidelines under the new law. So the number is about 80%; But that seems fairly correct given that insurance companies do not wish to create a conflicting situation that might cost them heavily in a court case after March 31, 2010. And why is that date important? Its explained in the ACA! So if your mad that you didn't get your doctor, go blame the insurance company. If your mad you have to choose a new plan, blame the insurance company. President Obama does not control the insurance companies in the nation; you are REALLY misinformed if you believe otherwise.

In 2014, most Americans will be reminded of WHO shut the government down. WHO spoil their vacations and businesses. WHO demanded a law be removed or else. Yes, the moderates will join with the liberals and vote in more Democrats. Don't like it? Maybe you should hold your party to twice the level of accountability and responsibility with power as you slam the President and Democrats on an hourly basis. While your at it....READ....the Affordable Care Act. Its only 2409 pages long.....

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RE: OBAMA LIED!!! - 11/5/2013 4:39:41 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

The problem is - we're paying for your healthcare too.
The companies develop for the US market - meet US standards, and then other countries trust the FDA and don't cost share.

its sort of like the joint strike fighter.
We should forbid export of the drug to any country that isn't sharing in the development cost.

I find that statement quite laughable.

How much did the US pay for or fund Marie Curie's work that lead to X-ray machines and an awful lot of modern scanners? Huh?
Even after she won the Nobel prize, not once but twice, did the US pay anything? Nope.
Louis Pasteur paved the way for a lot of modern drugs. Did the US pay for any of his development? Nope.

And are we, the Brits, getting any US funding for our healthcare? Nope.
Are the Australians or Canadians getting any US funding? Nope.

And for virtually all drugs, each country applies their own stringent approval tests.
We don't wait for the FDA either because each country has its own proceedure and license application to sell those drugs. The FDA is only for the US, nowhere else.
The FDA are also not as stringent as some other countries where food and drugs are concerned because there are some FDA approved drugs (and food) that do not pass our tests and are therefore banned over here but allowed in the US. So no, we DON'T trust the FDA at all.

As for the Joint Strike Fighter -
"Lockheed Martin and Boeing were each given $750 million for the development of the concept demonstrators and definition of the Preferred Weapon System Concept (PWSC)."
So who didn't pay their share? Huh?



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RE: OBAMA LIED!!! - 11/5/2013 5:36:11 AM   
Lucylastic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tammystarm

Yikes! It's about and around 47 percent. This is less than 50 percent so we are good, right? This means there are more haves than have nots and so President Obama can take from the haves and give to the not having. This reminds me of Robin Hoodie. He did wealth redistribution in ye old England in not so merry times. Except I recall even the poor were taxed and got nothing then and even the middle class were helped by our hero Robin, so I guess the Robin Hood thing is not exactly Obama Hood. Besides, Robin Hood shoots straight.

The "raw" average wage, computed as net compensation divided by the number of wage earners, is $6,529,097,960,690.75 divided by 153,632,290, or $42,498.21. Based on data in the table below, about 67.1 percent of wage earners had net compensation less than or equal to the $42,498.21 raw average wage. By definition, 50 percent of wage earners had net compensation less than or equal to the median wage, which is estimated to be $27,519.10 for 2012.
http://www.ssa.gov/cgi-bin/netcomp.cgi?year=2012

whose fault is it they are not earning enough for paying taxes????


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RE: OBAMA LIED!!! - 11/5/2013 7:46:01 AM   
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RE: OBAMA LIED!!! - 11/5/2013 8:53:37 AM   
tammystarm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

quote:

ORIGINAL: tammystarm
Yikes! It's about and around 47 percent. This is less than 50 percent so we are good, right? This means there are more haves than have nots and so President Obama can take from the haves and give to the not having. This reminds me of Robin Hoodie. He did wealth redistribution in ye old England in not so merry times. Except I recall even the poor were taxed and got nothing then and even the middle class were helped by our hero Robin, so I guess the Robin Hood thing is not exactly Obama Hood. Besides, Robin Hood shoots straight.


47%, eh? You should really UPDATE your facts. Its currently 2013, NOT, 2009 (and almost 2014!). There are more people working, the unemployment rate is much lower them it was in 2009. The stock markets are booming. And the nation is every growing, slowly but surely. The 47% number is used by many conservatives because they feel that number exists in a vacuum and cant never change. No, the current percentage is around the mid to high 30's. When the economy is doing well it'll be around the high 20's and low 30's.

But I find it curious you can not show the man an ounce of respect. That says something about you! I might dislike former President George W. Bush for a whole host of reasons. But unlike you, I show the man due respect. He was a US President of the United States of America. He did serve in the position during tough and trying times for the nation just like past US Presidents. In the future, you might consider to stifle the 'junior high school' attitude', and show some due respect to President.




The real unemployment rate is higher and those additional workers are working at part time jobs. Smoke is smoke and respect must be earned. Please don't use attacks on little ole me just because you want others to respect a man who failed to get the economy on track, failed to put together a bi-partisan health care overhall, failed to keep Americans safe from unlawful harassment from the I.R.S, failed to defend our embassy in Bengazi and failed to bring those responsible to justice and failed to keep his facts straight and truthful while explaining it to the country, failed to be truthful to the country about the impact of his "Obamacare" plan and failed to put I place experts required to implement this Obamacare plan and then failed to take responsibility, in short, failed to govern.

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RE: OBAMA LIED!!! - 11/5/2013 8:53:59 AM   
thompsonx


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ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

The problem is - we're paying for your healthcare too.

And their military umbrella alsoShould all of the poor be thrown out of the u.s. because they do not pay their "fair share" of national defense?

The companies develop for the US market - meet US standards, and then other countries trust the FDA and don't cost share.

Drug companies in other countries do not have to have their drugs approved by the fda?.I think you are mistaken.

its sort of like the joint strike fighter.
We should forbid export of the drug to any country that isn't sharing in the development cost.
Should other countries do the same with the u.s.?

Should the u.s. forbid the export of fords and cheveys because other countries did not share in their development costs?
Isn't this more government interference in private enterprise?


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RE: OBAMA LIED!!! - 11/5/2013 8:55:34 AM   
tammystarm


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quote:

whose fault is it they are not earning enough for paying taxes????



The person responsible for governing this country.

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Profile   Post #: 220
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