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RE: Another outrage from the R of P - 11/2/2013 8:06:38 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

I don't read Arabic. I did read a couple of different Hadith.

As to the Bible versus the Qu'ran on women, both have passages oppressive of women but both also have passages supportive of women's rights. This is fairly obvious if you know who Khadija was. It is important to understand that both the Bible and the Qu'ran derive from Semitic religion and culture and in that culture and religion women were usually considered second class citizens at best.

I think the clearest comparison of the teaching of Christ versus Muhammed on women is the treatment of Khadija versus the treatment of Mary Magdalene. Khadija is venerated while Mary, based on John almost certainly Jesus' wife, is defamed and made into a prostitute despite nothing in the Bible saying anything of the sort. Further there is no doubt that much of the earliest writing down of what would be the Qu'ran was done by Khadija who was literate while Muhammed was not.

The treatment of women we see in much of the Arab world and central Asia has more to do with culture than it does religion.



I think its more to do with fear. Whilst Christianity has been allowed to evolve with the times, Islam is still (at least in some cases) stuck in the dark ages.

The funny thing is Christianity caused this. Prior to the crusades and the general assault on the Muslim world by Christians the Muslim world was experiencing what could only be called a renaissance. The arts and sciences were flourishing, trade was expanding (many items we consider everyday parts of our lives were introduced to Western Europe by Arab merchants during this period). It was only when the relentless barbarians showed up on their doorstep that the Muslim world turned inward.

Yes, it is troubling that a Hadith discusses Muhammed's marriage to a nine year old girl but there are passages in the Bible and in classic literature that are just as troubling.



I have heard of the christians being blamed for a lot of different shit but this is the first time I have ever heard that they were responsible for keeping Islam stuck in the dark ages. They must really be some powerful motherfuckers.

Then you know nothing of the crusades and their aftermath.



The crusades were a long time ago. What's the excuse for today? Unless you are now going to claim that they were so traumatized by the events of the past that they are still in the dark ages. Seems to me like its time to put the big boy pants on and take responsibility for their own actions.

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Profile   Post #: 121
RE: Another outrage from the R of P - 11/2/2013 8:16:22 AM   
Phydeaux


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

I don't read Arabic. I did read a couple of different Hadith.

As to the Bible versus the Qu'ran on women, both have passages oppressive of women but both also have passages supportive of women's rights. This is fairly obvious if you know who Khadija was. It is important to understand that both the Bible and the Qu'ran derive from Semitic religion and culture and in that culture and religion women were usually considered second class citizens at best.

I think the clearest comparison of the teaching of Christ versus Muhammed on women is the treatment of Khadija versus the treatment of Mary Magdalene. Khadija is venerated while Mary, based on John almost certainly Jesus' wife, is defamed and made into a prostitute despite nothing in the Bible saying anything of the sort. Further there is no doubt that much of the earliest writing down of what would be the Qu'ran was done by Khadija who was literate while Muhammed was not.

The treatment of women we see in much of the Arab world and central Asia has more to do with culture than it does religion.



I think its more to do with fear. Whilst Christianity has been allowed to evolve with the times, Islam is still (at least in some cases) stuck in the dark ages.

The funny thing is Christianity caused this. Prior to the crusades and the general assault on the Muslim world by Christians the Muslim world was experiencing what could only be called a renaissance. The arts and sciences were flourishing, trade was expanding (many items we consider everyday parts of our lives were introduced to Western Europe by Arab merchants during this period). It was only when the relentless barbarians showed up on their doorstep that the Muslim world turned inward.

Yes, it is troubling that a Hadith discusses Muhammed's marriage to a nine year old girl but there are passages in the Bible and in classic literature that are just as troubling.



I have heard of the christians being blamed for a lot of different shit but this is the first time I have ever heard that they were responsible for keeping Islam stuck in the dark ages. They must really be some powerful motherfuckers.

Then you know nothing of the crusades and their aftermath.


Got any cites for that utterly bogus opinion?

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RE: Another outrage from the R of P - 11/2/2013 8:31:39 AM   
MariaB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

I have heard of the christians being blamed for a lot of different shit but this is the first time I have ever heard that they were responsible for keeping Islam stuck in the dark ages. They must really be some powerful motherfuckers.


DomKen made a very good point when he said,
'Prior to the crusades and the general assault on the Muslim world by Christians the Muslim world was experiencing what could only be called a renaissance. The arts and sciences were flourishing, trade was expanding (many items we consider everyday parts of our lives were introduced to Western Europe by Arab merchants during this period). It was only when the relentless barbarians showed up on their doorstep that the Muslim world turned inward.'

There is a lot of truth in those words but blaming Christians isn't really the answer.
The more the west intervenes in Islam, the more resistant the Muslims become to secularization. Western Christian based countries look forward to modernization and the more modern and rational they become, the more Christianity loses its authority. At least this is how many in the Muslim world see it.

Nobody can deny that in these modern times, Muslims have suffered far too much foreign domination.
If you were to ask a westerner to name a Muslim country, they will name those countries that have had conflicts with the west. They will name the countries that still live with a wide array of repugnant practices in the name of Sharia supremacy. What they won't do is name the other 40 or so countries that live peaceful lives. This is because Sharia is not a rigid law of God with its fundamental roots buried in ancient text. When Sharia is applied correctly it becomes fully compatible with the modern human rights framework.




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Profile   Post #: 123
RE: Another outrage from the R of P - 11/2/2013 8:41:29 AM   
MariaB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB
The problem with all these Hadiths is, the word of Muhammad still dictates Islamic law.

Isn't there a suspicion in some quarters that a lot of Islamic law (particularly the more progressive and rational bits) is dictated by the illiterate prophet's scribe trying to ratify Mohammed's jibber jabber into a coherent system, rather than strange outpourings of hysterical nonsense?


I'm not sure I understand your question but Ill give it a try!

Could the scriptures of been changed/modernized ? sure, just as the New Testament was widely changed from the interpretations of the Old Testament. Could they of been corrupted? probably, though I'm not sure where the hysterical nonsense came from?!?


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Profile   Post #: 124
RE: Another outrage from the R of P - 11/2/2013 8:46:04 AM   
gosportmike


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Peope forget that in victorian times women got a much better deal in regards to equality in muslem lands. The western world has changed beyond recognition in the last centuary. The collapse of the ottoman empire and its colinisation by christians did not help. It took Britian a long time to adjust to the loss of empire and islam has a similar problem with loss of status. It is always easier to blame someone else.

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Profile   Post #: 125
RE: Another outrage from the R of P - 11/2/2013 9:37:30 AM   
njlauren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Now where does it mention that she is now" maybe" subject to the death penalty???? oh thats right....it doesnt
Its surprising you bring up the religion and the harshness of the crime committed against her, but considering such stuff doesnt happen in america/UK/christian/atheist countries.. Oh yeah hang on it does.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2478494/Ohio-use-untried-lethal-injection-to-death-murderer-rapist-Ronald-Phillips.html

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/08/27/parents-of-tenn-couple-horrifically-raped-tortured-and-murdered-share-their-story-of-unthinkable-agony-and-injustice-with-glenn-beck/

http://www.morningjournal.com/general-news/20130113/child-killer-up-for-parole-in-march-tim-papp-raped-murdered-9-year-old-roxie-ann-keathley-in-73
When is it going to become clear that there is little responsibility of men towards NOT to rape women
Look at Steubenville
look at any of these cases
https://www.google.ca/search?q=marissa+&rls=com.microsoft:en-US:%7Breferrer:source%3F%7D&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7ACGW_enCA460&gws_rd=cr&ei=H9VvUsqzEcP62QXC9oG4Bw#q=rape+of+teen&rls=com.microsoft:en-US%3A%7Breferrer%3Asource%3F%7D&safe=off&tbm=nws

spare me your race/islam baiting ....its got little to do with islam, or sikhism, or christianity, or atheism, and everything to do with fucking dickhead men who see women as meat and cannot control themselves.



Look up Marysville, Missouri where two teen girls were basically totally drunk, and two boys on the football team had sex with them (they were 13 and 14), they left one girl outside on her home's front porch in freezing cold weather, when the girl was taken to the hospital 4 hours after the sex happened she had a .14 BAC (legally drunk, which means she would be .19 or .20), but the DA refused to press charges against the boy who did it for having sex with someone unable to consent. Course, the boy was a big hero from the local high school football team, and grandpa had been a hot shot, family values congressman for years, but the DA did it because there was no evidence (the checkout in the hospital showed the girl had had sex, they had the boy's dna, and she was .14 at 6am, when the rape happened at 2am...), plus there was video that 'mysteriously' disappeared.....

So does that mean we should use drone attacks against the heartland, since obviously they are no better than pakistan?

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Profile   Post #: 126
RE: Another outrage from the R of P - 11/2/2013 9:43:29 AM   
njlauren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB
The problem with all these Hadiths is, the word of Muhammad still dictates Islamic law.

Isn't there a suspicion in some quarters that a lot of Islamic law (particularly the more progressive and rational bits) is dictated by the illiterate prophet's scribe trying to ratify Mohammed's jibber jabber into a coherent system, rather than strange outpourings of hysterical nonsense?


I'm not sure I understand your question but Ill give it a try!

Could the scriptures of been changed/modernized ? sure, just as the New Testament was widely changed from the interpretations of the Old Testament. Could they of been corrupted? probably, though I'm not sure where the hysterical nonsense came from?!?



The Q'ran, like new testament canon, was not written by the source, Mohammed was illiterate so couldn't have, and the Q'ran was originally done as a series of things to be chanted from memory.....the New Testament was not written down until starting about 30 years after Christ's death (roughly 65CE, 70ce, 74ce and around 95ce for John)......the Q'ran was written down well after Mohammed's death,and those writing it added a lot of cultural commentary, probably based on Bedoin tribal tradition (the thing about women more than likely was not Mohammed).

The NT scriptures, like the Q'ran, also had issues of copying and such, there is no such thing as 'original texts', there are over 1500 greek texts of the NT, dating back to the 4th century or so, and they have 350,000 differences between them...and the texts were not written by the disciples, it is more than likely the writers were working from oral accounts and maybe having met the disciples, the texts were hand copied all over the place and there was no official version until Jerome in the4th century created the vulgate bible....


It is why fundamental reading of scripture is so bad, because the texts themselves are not pure, they have agendas, they have cultural references, etc.

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Profile   Post #: 127
RE: Another outrage from the R of P - 11/2/2013 9:48:20 AM   
njlauren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

I have heard of the christians being blamed for a lot of different shit but this is the first time I have ever heard that they were responsible for keeping Islam stuck in the dark ages. They must really be some powerful motherfuckers.


DomKen made a very good point when he said,
'Prior to the crusades and the general assault on the Muslim world by Christians the Muslim world was experiencing what could only be called a renaissance. The arts and sciences were flourishing, trade was expanding (many items we consider everyday parts of our lives were introduced to Western Europe by Arab merchants during this period). It was only when the relentless barbarians showed up on their doorstep that the Muslim world turned inward.'

There is a lot of truth in those words but blaming Christians isn't really the answer.
The more the west intervenes in Islam, the more resistant the Muslims become to secularization. Western Christian based countries look forward to modernization and the more modern and rational they become, the more Christianity loses its authority. At least this is how many in the Muslim world see it.

Nobody can deny that in these modern times, Muslims have suffered far too much foreign domination.
If you were to ask a westerner to name a Muslim country, they will name those countries that have had conflicts with the west. They will name the countries that still live with a wide array of repugnant practices in the name of Sharia supremacy. What they won't do is name the other 40 or so countries that live peaceful lives. This is because Sharia is not a rigid law of God with its fundamental roots buried in ancient text. When Sharia is applied correctly it becomes fully compatible with the modern human rights framework.





There is also nothing called "Shariah Law", in the sense of universal law, it varies from place to place in the Muslim world, the way that there are different sects of Islam with differing beliefs. People translate Shariah law as coming out of the Q'ran, when in reality, it is how people choose to read the Q'Ran. We have people in this country (ironically, often those most crying about 'Shariah law' coming to the US), who want the US law to basically be their version of "Christian law".....it is known as Christian dominionism, and there may be as many as 30 million people who want this, where the law would have to accede to biblical law...the fact that people can argue against legal same sex marriage based on 'marriage being sacred' is a prime example, that a bit less then half the country subscribe to, so we can't exactly talk in this country, either, or when we have a major political party that has based its social agenda on extreme, right wing Christianity.

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Profile   Post #: 128
RE: Another outrage from the R of P - 11/2/2013 10:21:20 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

quote:


quote:

..
Outright hilarious.

We're talking about the teachings of Christ, vs the teachings of Mohammed.
One preaches love, the other terrorism.

No. Both teach love and the rest as well as violence. You have to willfully misinterpret the Qu'ran to make it all about violence.


Bullshit again.

You claimed moral equivalency. I have in the past shown over 100 quotes from the Quran telling its followers to terrorize the infidels. To torture them. To castrate them, to flay the skin from them. To kill them while they sleep.

I then challenged you to find ONE instance in the teachings of christ that encouraged violence and terrorism against others. You have so far failed.

There is just as much rhetorical hate and violence in the NT.

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/int/long.html

You will of course claim it is all metaphor and rhetoric and so is most of what is in the Qu'ran.



Don't put words in my mouth. So again, you have not provided *one* instance in the teachings of christ that encouraged violence and terrorism against others. I'm not going to do your research for you. Let me make it BIG AND BOLD *one* instance in the teachings of christ that encouraged violence and terrorism against others

So you ignored the list. You can whine all you want but I provided a long list of hateful, violent and intolerant statements in the NT.

As to the rest I provided the evidence, widely accepted by actual biblical scholars, and you dug up a single apologist site that has as a starting point that the bible is infallible and they then set out to make it conform to their beliefs. I think I'll continue to rely on actual scholars.

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RE: Another outrage from the R of P - 11/2/2013 10:40:31 AM   
MariaB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren

There is also nothing called "Shariah Law", in the sense of universal law, it varies from place to place in the Muslim world, the way that there are different sects of Islam with differing beliefs. People translate Shariah law as coming out of the Q'ran, when in reality, it is how people choose to read the Q'Ran. We have people in this country (ironically, often those most crying about 'Shariah law' coming to the US), who want the US law to basically be their version of "Christian law".....it is known as Christian dominionism, and there may be as many as 30 million people who want this, where the law would have to accede to biblical law...the fact that people can argue against legal same sex marriage based on 'marriage being sacred' is a prime example, that a bit less then half the country subscribe to, so we can't exactly talk in this country, either, or when we have a major political party that has based its social agenda on extreme, right wing Christianity.


The problem with the Quran is, its almost illegible if not read in pure Arabic. The translations make little sense when read aloud in English. This means that Muslims born in the western world and who merely chant in Arabic but don't understand what they are chanting, are open to extremism.

I had no idea about Christian Law.


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Profile   Post #: 130
RE: Another outrage from the R of P - 11/2/2013 10:49:15 AM   
MariaB


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Just found this from the New Testament.

Lev. 20:13, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them"

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RE: Another outrage from the R of P - 11/2/2013 1:22:34 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB


quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren

There is also nothing called "Shariah Law", in the sense of universal law, it varies from place to place in the Muslim world, the way that there are different sects of Islam with differing beliefs. People translate Shariah law as coming out of the Q'ran, when in reality, it is how people choose to read the Q'Ran. We have people in this country (ironically, often those most crying about 'Shariah law' coming to the US), who want the US law to basically be their version of "Christian law".....it is known as Christian dominionism, and there may be as many as 30 million people who want this, where the law would have to accede to biblical law...the fact that people can argue against legal same sex marriage based on 'marriage being sacred' is a prime example, that a bit less then half the country subscribe to, so we can't exactly talk in this country, either, or when we have a major political party that has based its social agenda on extreme, right wing Christianity.


The problem with the Quran is, its almost illegible if not read in pure Arabic. The translations make little sense when read aloud in English. This means that Muslims born in the western world and who merely chant in Arabic but don't understand what they are chanting, are open to extremism.

I had no idea about Christian Law.


It depends on the translation. Mine is from Princeton University Press. It lists the translator as Ahmad Ali.

Christian Dominionism is a theocratic movement existing as part of the current mainstream of the Republican Party and so called conservative movement. W was deeply involved in the movement and appointed numerous figures to government posts. Former Senator Frothy Mix is an open dominionist as is Rep. Bachmann and many other elected Republicans are at the very least friendly with the movement.

In recent years with increased attention being brought to the movement they have tried to present a more moderate face to America but the fact is a little web searching will turn up the older stuff that shows just how dangerous these people are,

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RE: Another outrage from the R of P - 11/2/2013 1:30:09 PM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

Very true, if there was such a thing as "homegrown renewable energy" lying around in sufficiently massive quantities.
You ae aware that in a very few years the US will be a net energy exporter?

What do you think our biggest export already is?

It used to be, but you people shifted from being a net exporter to a net importer a while back, did you not? There's suspicions that the shift has as much to do with panic buying as it does with production going down.

Please read the quote before you answer it.

Our biggest export is STILL petroleum.

I never claimed net exportation. I claimed our biggest export is petroleum.

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RE: Another outrage from the R of P - 11/2/2013 2:18:04 PM   
MariaB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


It depends on the translation. Mine is from Princeton University Press. It lists the translator as Ahmad Ali.



I'm sure translators do their best. The problem is, the Quran was written harmonically/poetically. An example that comes to mind that may explain what I'm saying is, if you translated Dr Suess into the French it would go something like this....

Do you like green eggs and ham? would be 'vous aimez les œufs verts au jambon' (do you like eggs green and ham)
and the next line, 'I do not like them Sam I am,' when translated to French no longer rhymes.


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Profile   Post #: 134
RE: Another outrage from the R of P - 11/2/2013 2:40:15 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


It depends on the translation. Mine is from Princeton University Press. It lists the translator as Ahmad Ali.



I'm sure translators do their best. The problem is, the Quran was written harmonically/poetically. An example that comes to mind that may explain what I'm saying is, if you translated Dr Suess into the French it would go something like this....

Do you like green eggs and ham? would be 'vous aimez les œufs verts au jambon' (do you like eggs green and ham)
and the next line, 'I do not like them Sam I am,' when translated to French no longer rhymes.


Certainly the poetry of the verses is gone but the meaning comes across as well as any translation of any other work of similar complexity and subtlety.

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RE: Another outrage from the R of P - 11/2/2013 3:20:22 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

I don't read Arabic. I did read a couple of different Hadith.

As to the Bible versus the Qu'ran on women, both have passages oppressive of women but both also have passages supportive of women's rights. This is fairly obvious if you know who Khadija was. It is important to understand that both the Bible and the Qu'ran derive from Semitic religion and culture and in that culture and religion women were usually considered second class citizens at best.

I think the clearest comparison of the teaching of Christ versus Muhammed on women is the treatment of Khadija versus the treatment of Mary Magdalene. Khadija is venerated while Mary, based on John almost certainly Jesus' wife, is defamed and made into a prostitute despite nothing in the Bible saying anything of the sort. Further there is no doubt that much of the earliest writing down of what would be the Qu'ran was done by Khadija who was literate while Muhammed was not.

The treatment of women we see in much of the Arab world and central Asia has more to do with culture than it does religion.



I think its more to do with fear. Whilst Christianity has been allowed to evolve with the times, Islam is still (at least in some cases) stuck in the dark ages.

The funny thing is Christianity caused this. Prior to the crusades and the general assault on the Muslim world by Christians the Muslim world was experiencing what could only be called a renaissance. The arts and sciences were flourishing, trade was expanding (many items we consider everyday parts of our lives were introduced to Western Europe by Arab merchants during this period). It was only when the relentless barbarians showed up on their doorstep that the Muslim world turned inward.

Yes, it is troubling that a Hadith discusses Muhammed's marriage to a nine year old girl but there are passages in the Bible and in classic literature that are just as troubling.



I have heard of the christians being blamed for a lot of different shit but this is the first time I have ever heard that they were responsible for keeping Islam stuck in the dark ages. They must really be some powerful motherfuckers.

Then you know nothing of the crusades and their aftermath.



The crusades were a long time ago. What's the excuse for today? Unless you are now going to claim that they were so traumatized by the events of the past that they are still in the dark ages. Seems to me like its time to put the big boy pants on and take responsibility for their own actions.

Shut up bitching about King George and tea tax, then.


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RE: Another outrage from the R of P - 11/3/2013 12:51:36 AM   
Phydeaux


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

Just found this from the New Testament.

Lev. 20:13, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them"



Fail.
Lev. 20:13 is OLD testament.

Please try again.

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RE: Another outrage from the R of P - 11/3/2013 1:16:10 AM   
Phydeaux


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Why should I bother? I can read quite clearly myself. Jesus is "excoriating" the Pharisees for not murdering their disobedient children. It could not be clearer.


And you couldn't be more clearly wrong. Although, since you're not versed in the original languages you wouldn't understand it.

The words of Jesus often refer to things that most people (today) don't have any understanding.
Take for example: when the Jesus was on the Cross he says - Eli, Eli, lama sabatchtani.

Which, loosely translated is "My God, My God, why have you abandoned me?"
Thousands of people unversed in Biblical scholarship have written hundreds of treatises on this.
Saying that Jesus felt abandoned at the moment of his death.

Nothing could be further from the truth. To the contrary. Jesus quote at the moment of his death states his absolute trust in God.

Jesus is quoting from the Psalms of David - specifically Psalm 22:
Psalm 22[a]

For the director of music. To the tune of “The Doe of the Morning.” A psalm of David.


1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from my cries of anguish?
2 My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, but I find no rest.


3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the one Israel praises.[c]
4 In you our ancestors put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.
5 To you they cried out and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not put to shame.


6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by everyone, despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads.
8 “He trusts in the Lord,” they say,
“let the Lord rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him.”


9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you, even at my mother’s breast.
10 From birth I was cast on you;
from my mother’s womb you have been my God.


11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.


12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
13 Roaring lions that tear their prey
open their mouths wide against me.
14 I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted within me.
15 My mouth[d] is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.


16 Dogs surround me,
a pack of villains encircles me;
they pierce[e] my hands and my feet.
17 All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my clothes among them
and cast lots for my garment.


19 But you, Lord, do not be far from me.
You are my strength; come quickly to help me.
20 Deliver me from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dogs.
21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;
save me from the horns of the wild oxen.


22 I will declare your name to my people;
in the assembly I will praise you.
23 You who fear the Lord, praise him!
All you descendants of Jacob, honor him!
Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!
24 For he has not despised or scorned
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.


25 From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly;
before those who fear you[f] I will fulfill my vows.
26 The poor will eat and be satisfied;
those who seek the Lord will praise him—
may your hearts live forever!


27 All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to the Lord,
and all the families of the nations
will bow down before him,
28 for dominion belongs to the Lord
and he rules over the nations.


29 All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;
all who go down to the dust will kneel before him—
those who cannot keep themselves alive.
30 Posterity will serve him;
future generations will be told about the Lord.
31 They will proclaim his righteousness,
declaring to a people yet unborn:
He has done it!

Hardly a quote of despair - to the contrary.

In the same way, this quote you don't understand is Jesus is verbally flipping their words back at the Pharisees. What he says, is not in any way an exhortation to kill disobedient children but rather that the Pharisees are hypocrites. The Pharisees allowed themselves to benefit from children abusing elders.

Here is the textural analysis


Two Figures of Speech in Matthew 15:1-9

The first nine verses of Matthew 15 record a confrontation between Jesus Christ and a group of scribes and Pharisees from Jerusalem. As good a job as the KJV does rendering the translation, there are two figures of speech in the record that, when recognized, help to shed even more light on the incident.
Matthew 15:1-3
Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,

Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.

But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

Jesus Christ's answer reminds me of a story about a Jewish rabbi during the Middle Ages, who was resisting the repeated efforts of a monk to convert him to Roman Catholicism. One day, after hours of frustratingly fruitless discussion, the monk finally threw his hands into the air and exclaimed, "Rabbi, rabbi, why is it that you always answer a question with a question?"
The rabbi blinked his eyes and stroked his beard as he responded, "So, what's wrong with answering a question with a question?"

***
If you look back at Verses 34 and 35 of Matthew 14, you'll see that Jesus Christ was in an area called Gennesaret, where the people had, "sent out into all that country round about, and brought unto him all that were diseased." And -- no doubt because of the stir he was making -- a group of scribes and Pharisees had shown up too, and decided take it upon themselves to inspect the Lord's operation and interrogate him about a violation that they spotted.
Just because these dudes belonged to two of Jerusalem's top religious cliques doesn't mean that Jesus Christ owed them an explanation. The only-begotten Son of God wasn't obligated to play their game, nor when we minister the Word of God today as sons of God (see I John 3:2) are we obligated to play by the rules that our adversaries lay down.

The Jerusalem scribes and Pharisees wanted to play "answer our question" about the tradition of the elders. Jesus Christ turned the game into "here's question for you" about something vastly more important than hand washing, namely, the commandment of God.

Verse 4
For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
On the surface, it seems like Jesus Christ would have been just as accurate if he had simply said "let him die" rather than "let him die the death." Doing so, however, he put the words into a figure of speech called Polyptoton.
***

Polyptoton is a figure of speech which repeats the same word in a different form in order to specify. In this instance, when Jesus Christ said "let them die the death," he specified that he wasn't talking about just any old death, like when that grand piano falls out of the sky and sounds a perfect "F-flat Major" as it lands. Rather, via the figure Polyptoton, he left no doubt that he was citing the death penalty as specified in Law of Moses in Leviticus 20:9.

Verses 5-6
But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;

And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free...
In practice, the children of Israel were to honor their father and mother by doing their best to take care of them during their dotage. But the legalistic Judeans scooted out from God's commandment by claiming, "It's a gift! It's a gift!" -- in other words, "That money is dedicated to God."
Sound sincere? Sound religious? Sure. But don't think they didn't turn around and spend the cash on themselves, just as soon as they forked over a cut to the scribes and Pharisees in order to "sanctify it." What the tradition meant, in practice, was that the children of Israel -- so long as they greased the palms of the religous authorites -- didn't have to compromise their precious lifestyles on behalf of their elderly parents.

Nice teaching!

***
The KJV italicizes the words "he shall be free" to show that they aren't in the Greek text, and that the translators added them for understanding. By adding them, however, they've obsured a second figure of speech that Jesus Christ used here, called Aposiopesis. Aposiopesis is a Figure of Rhetoric, which in English would be called "Sudden Silence." In Figures of Speech used in the Bible, on page 151, E.W. Bullinger ellaborates:
[Aposiopesis] is the sudden breaking off of what is being said (or written), so that the mind may be the more impressed by what is too wonderful, or solemn, or awful for words: or when a thing may be, as we somethimes say, "better imagined than described."
Leaving out what the KJV translators added, what Jesus Christ actually said in Verses 5 and 6 was:
Verses 5-6
But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;

And honour not his father or his mother ... [insert here A SUDDEN SILENCE -- a.k.a. A PREGNANT PAUSE -- during which I imagine you could hear sweat droplets off the Pharisees' foreheads hitting the dirt] ... Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

***
The tradition didn't just say that the one dishonoring his parents "shall be free," like the KJV translators inserted. No. He'd be entered at the top of the ledger as "kosher," "right-on," "a member in good standing," "everything according to Hoyle," "a real giver," "as righteous as the day is long" -- fill in the blank with whatever -- in the religious authorities' book, that is, not in God's book.
Using this figure of speech Aposiopesis, Jesus Christ blew the doors off the whole scam. The scribes' and Pharisees' tradition was so self-evidently crooked that its claims didn't even merit mentioning -- except by silence -- followed by the conclusion to the matter: "Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition."

Verses 7-9
Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias [Isaiah] prophesy of you [in Isaiah 29:13], saying,

This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

But in vain they do worship me, teaching [didasko] for doctrines [didaskalia] the commandments of men.
The Greek word in Verse 9 translated "teaching" is didasko, while the word translated "doctrines" is didaskalia. Verse 9 could be rendered "teaching for teachings." When it is, we uncover a second instance of the first figure of speech we looked at.
***
Again, it seems like Jesus Christ would have been just as accurate if he had simply said, "teaching the commandments of men," instead of "teaching for teachings the commandments of men." But for a second time in this record, he utilizes the figure of speech Polyptoton when he cites an Old Testament Scripture.
Although the dictionary definition of didaskalia may be simply "teachings," 1 it is noteworthy that Matthew 15:9 is the first use of the word didaskalia in the Bible. The word also occurs in II Timothy:

II Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God [theopneustos, God-breathed], and is profitable for doctrine [didaskalia] ...
In Segment 8 of the Power for Abundant Living Class, Dr. Victor Paul Wierwille defines the word "doctrine" in II Timothy 3:16 as "right teaching" and "how to believe rightly" (see also the Power for Abundant Living book, page 81). The first use of didaskalia in the figure of speech Polyptoton shows Dr. Wierwille's definition to be absolutely accurate.

This is exactly what the Lord Jesus Christ is specifying here in Matthew 15:9 via this figure of speech: that what the scribes and Pharisees were palming off as RIGHT teaching and how to believe RIGHTLY was nothing but "the doctrines and commandments of men."
.
1. See Thayer's Lexicon, c.f. didaskalia (Strong's Number 1319), page 144.

http://www.biblicalresearchjournal.org/brj-pages_html/001bp_2007-07-13.html

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 138
RE: Another outrage from the R of P - 11/3/2013 1:24:27 AM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

quote:


quote:

..
Outright hilarious.

We're talking about the teachings of Christ, vs the teachings of Mohammed.
One preaches love, the other terrorism.

No. Both teach love and the rest as well as violence. You have to willfully misinterpret the Qu'ran to make it all about violence.


Bullshit again.

You claimed moral equivalency. I have in the past shown over 100 quotes from the Quran telling its followers to terrorize the infidels. To torture them. To castrate them, to flay the skin from them. To kill them while they sleep.

I then challenged you to find ONE instance in the teachings of christ that encouraged violence and terrorism against others. You have so far failed.

There is just as much rhetorical hate and violence in the NT.

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/int/long.html

You will of course claim it is all metaphor and rhetoric and so is most of what is in the Qu'ran.



Don't put words in my mouth. So again, you have not provided *one* instance in the teachings of christ that encouraged violence and terrorism against others. I'm not going to do your research for you. Let me make it BIG AND BOLD *one* instance in the teachings of christ that encouraged violence and terrorism against others

So you ignored the list. You can whine all you want but I provided a long list of hateful, violent and intolerant statements in the NT.


You weren't challenged to find a list of violence in the bible. You were challenged to back up your statement that Islam and Christianity are morally equivalent.

I made the assertion that the teachings of Christ (as expounded in the new testament) could not be any farther from the teachings of Mohammed.

I have provided hundreds of instances where muslims are instructed to slay the infidels in their sleep. To terrorize them. Others where lying and cheating non-muslims are not only OK but encouraged - in the words of Mohammed himself.

All I've asked you to do is to provide one instance where Christ told his followers to terrorize, murder, flay, castrate.

You can't do it, because it doesn't exist.

Finally, is Mohammed the Prophet, Ken? Are you ashamed to answer?

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 139
RE: Another outrage from the R of P - 11/3/2013 1:27:46 AM   
MariaB


Posts: 2969
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline

Phydeauxs on a mission to God! Good luck with that but please, please, please try and put your anger to one side. Its so, well, unchristian

_____________________________

My store is http://e-stimstore.com

(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 140
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