RE: GOP pushback against Tea Party

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joether -> RE: GOP pushback against Tea Party (11/6/2013 2:14:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Yachtie quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail That to the Union of the States this nation owes its unprecedented increase in population; its surprising development of material resources; its rapid augmentation of wealth; its happiness at home and its honor abroad; and we hold in abhorrence all schemes for disunion, come from whatever source they may; and we congratulate the country that no republican member of congress has uttered or countenanced the threats of disunion so often made by democratic members, without rebuke and with applause from their political associates; and we denounce those threats of disunion, in case of a popular overthrow of their ascendancy, as denying the vital principles of a free government, and as an avowal of contemplated treason, which it is the imperative duty of an indignant people sternly to rebuke and forever silence. That while providing revenue for the support of the general government by duties upon imports, sound policy requires such an adjustment of these imposts as to encourage the development of the industrial interests of the whole country, and we commend that policy of national exchanges which secures to the workingmen liberal wages, to agriculture remunerating prices, to mechanics and manufacturers an adequate reward for their skill, labor and enterprise, and to the nation commercial prosperity and independence. That the Republican Party is opposed to any change in our naturalization laws, or any state legislation by which the rights of citizenship hitherto accorded by emigrants from foreign lands shall be abridged or impaired; and in favor of giving a full and efficient protection to the rights of all classes of citizens, whether native or naturalized, both at home and abroad. Oh, thats enough, they ain't doing shit.... Nice quoting [:D] Where did ya get that? [8D] Rand Paul?[;)] The text MN refers comes from The Republican National Platform of 1860. I did just a simple goggle search of "That to the Union of the States this nation owes its unprecedented increase in population...". When you cant even answer a simple question as 'where did it come from', I have to seriously doubt your ability to handle complex of complicated subject matter.

mnottertail -> RE: GOP pushback against Tea Party (11/6/2013 2:42:54 PM)
FR: Thats why I tell everybody, I and only one other guy I know is a republican, the rest of you are just fuckin around, you wouldn't know traditional republican values if they hit you in the fuckin ass, kids. Nutsackers and most republicans, are not republican, in traditional values. If you are lucky you are the fringe know-nothings and copperheads and other slobbering groups of the old days that were sucked into the republican party to get it off the ground, perhaps one Whig or two among you very religious. It is coming back to bite 'republicans' in the ass. Go read the 1972 platform....republicans. More traditional republican values: We have turned toward concord among all Americans; We have turned toward reason and order; We have turned toward government responding sensitively to the people's hopes and needs; We have turned toward innovative solutions to the nation's most pressing problems; We have turned toward new paths for social progress—from welfare rolls to payrolls; from wanton pollution to vigorous environmental protection; To reduce barriers to American exports. To combat the international drug traffic. To protect the international environment. To expand cultural relations with peoples of Eastern Europe. To restore the water quality of the Great Lakes in cooperation with Canada. We will faithfully honor all of our treaty commitments. We stand for full employment a job for everyone willing and able to work in an economy freed of inflation, its vigor not dependent upon war or massive military spending. We will continue to pursue sound economic policies that will eliminate inflation, further cut unemployment, raise real incomes, and strengthen our international economic position. We will fight for responsible Federal budgets to help assure steady expansion of the economy without inflation. We will support the independent Federal Reserve Board in a policy of non-inflationary monetary expansion. We will continue to promote steady expansion of the whole economy as the best route to a long-term solution of unemployment. We will devote every effort to raising productivity, primarily to raise living standards but also to hold down costs and prices and to increase the ability of American producers and workers to compete in world markets. ad nauseam.

mnottertail -> RE: GOP pushback against Tea Party (11/6/2013 2:44:46 PM)
http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/platforms.php go read about the traditional values you do not have.

DomKen -> RE: GOP pushback against Tea Party (11/6/2013 3:09:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri Many see the Tea Party as a way to bring the GOP back to the traditional party planks of the Republican Party. You don't really believe that right? Would Teddy Roosevelt support the tea party? Would Eisenhower? Taft? Can you name any major Republican ever who simply refused to compromise on anything with the Democrats? Can you name any major Republican ever who demanded ideological purity from other Republicans on every single thing? LMAO! The test of whether or not the Tea Party is trying to bring the GOP back to it's traditional roots is whether or not they'll compromise? Whether or not they wanted (demanded is a bit strong, dontcha think? It's not like can actually force fellow GOP lawmakers into voting their way) ideological purity? That's laughable at the very least, Ken. Show me the progressive tea partiers then? Traditionally the Republicans had a strong progressive wing. There is literally nothing of the traditional center right Republican party in the tea party nuts. They are the ideological descendants of the Birchers and the CCC. Just look at the birther stuff. There's nothing rational or moderate about it. It's conspiracy theory and blatant racism blended into a toxic soup. Was every Republican a progressive? Was every Republican subset progressive? Why demand that the Tea Party contain progressives? I do think, however, that Palin was a progressive Tea Party person. Hell, she even claimed that her and McCain were Tea Party members. How's that for progressive? Your claims are full of shit, too, btw. The Tea Party is all about conspiracy theory, nor is it blatant racism. Palin is a populist not a progressive. Your claim was that the tea party wanted to move the Republican Party back to its traditional roots. So they shouldn't be demanding ideological purity and they should be supporting a progressive movement inside the party. Obviously they aren't. By every measure they are shifting the party to the reactionary extremist right not towards the center. The tea party is heavily birther. Birthers are clearly racist conspiracy nuts.

JeffBC -> RE: GOP pushback against Tea Party (11/6/2013 3:12:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri Any proof that the Tea Party is more loyal to Corporate America than to lowering the deficit? I should think there is ample proof of that for every "party". Endless corporate welfare from both parties pretty much tells the story there. My general sense is that the republican party and/or teaparty is more hell bent on handing us all over for slaves than the democratic party but not by much.

DesideriScuri -> RE: GOP pushback against Tea Party (11/6/2013 3:20:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: joether What do you think the average Tea Party minded person does on a daily basis, DS? RIDICULE OTHERS. Just because you have not been on the receiving end of it, doesn't mean its not happening. How often do we have Tea Partiers on this very forum attacking the President over petty things? Every Day! Every self-described Tea Party supporter I've come in contact with has worked on a daily basis (that doesn't mean they work 7 days a week, but you should see the point). Wait, I take that back. That's not true. The vast majority of Tea Party supporters I've come in contact with worked on a daily basis. The rest had retired from working on a daily basis. quote: I can accept there are people that displace President Obama and his policies.....BUT.....remain respective of the office and the nation when referring to him. How many times within the last three years alone, have we seen conservatives bash the President with 'junior high school insults and rants'? I believe the moderators could chime in here and tell....JUST HOW MANY TIMES....they have had to delete those sort of posts on the grounds it was out of line. Just because you have not seen those posts, does not mean they were never made. I've seen plenty of them over the last few years. Too many times. It happens too many times in the physical world and too many times here in the cyber world. It's happened for a long, long time, too. I'm sure Reagan and Bush 41 had theirs (there are some here that still do that). Clinton, too. Bush 43's 8 years were pretty much wall-to-wall rantings and foaming at the mouth (won't comment as to what it was like here, as I wasn't here). The President of the US is a damn powerful job, and carries with it, a virtual target for rantings and ravings. But, last time I checked, no one here was the President of the US. While it's possible someone here played a POTUS on TV or stayed at a Holiday Inn Express the night before, it still isn't okay to treat each other that way. quote: The GOP has no one to blame but themselves for creating the Tea Party. The longer the GOP keeps the Tea Party, 'under its wing', the more damage the Tea Party will do to the GOP. Maybe the Tea Party should become its own party, and prove to America they aren't totally full of crap. They wont do it, because its so much fun in their psychotic minds, destroying the United States anyway they can. The only group of people in America, that jumped for joy at the shutdown was the Tea Party. And because of that, many, upon many Americans will REMEMBER that when they go to the polls for 2014 and 2016. quote: The GOP didn't create the Tea Party, no matter how many times those on the left utter it. Do you not remember how many incumbent R's lost their primaries to the Tea Party challengers? It wasn't that the GOP wanted the incumbents ousted, that's for sure. quote: The Tea Party may have at one time been for a collection of half decent principles and ideas. But the Tea Party of today is filled with the mean, hateful, anti-America types. They enjoy their fellow Americans suffering, and do anything and everything to undermine any sort of real help to those citizens. Basically, they are borderline traitors in my book. They attacked Gov. Christie when Hurricane Sandy hit New Jersey last year in every way. The guy was trying to help his fellow citizens out regardless of political affiliation. And if that mean getting help from the Federal Government and the President....that is what is done (i.e. swallow the pride and do the job). That is what any non-psychotic person would do, right? The Tea Party was against it. You are letting the lefty talking heads write your posts for you, Joether. You don't have to agree with their beliefs, just like no one has to agree with yours. If you can't see that you're doing the same thing you came out against two paragraphs ago, well, look again.

DomKen -> RE: GOP pushback against Tea Party (11/6/2013 3:59:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri Too many times. It happens too many times in the physical world and too many times here in the cyber world. It's happened for a long, long time, too. I'm sure Reagan and Bush 41 had theirs (there are some here that still do that). Clinton, too. Bush 43's 8 years were pretty much wall-to-wall rantings and foaming at the mouth (won't comment as to what it was like here, as I wasn't here). The President of the US is a damn powerful job, and carries with it, a virtual target for rantings and ravings. I was here for a good chunk of those 8 terrible years and while the left's dislike of W was not hidden leftists were routinely called traitors, communists, terrorism supporters and pretty much anything else certain right wingers could get away with (which was a lot since Mod XI was a right winger who simply started banning leftists who stood up to their crap). To be blunt the right now reaps what they sowed. They encouraged the conspiracy nuts and they attacked the left leaving themselves no where to stand.

DesideriScuri -> RE: GOP pushback against Tea Party (11/6/2013 9:46:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri Too many times. It happens too many times in the physical world and too many times here in the cyber world. It's happened for a long, long time, too. I'm sure Reagan and Bush 41 had theirs (there are some here that still do that). Clinton, too. Bush 43's 8 years were pretty much wall-to-wall rantings and foaming at the mouth (won't comment as to what it was like here, as I wasn't here). The President of the US is a damn powerful job, and carries with it, a virtual target for rantings and ravings. I was here for a good chunk of those 8 terrible years and while the left's dislike of W was not hidden leftists were routinely called traitors, communists, terrorism supporters and pretty much anything else certain right wingers could get away with (which was a lot since Mod XI was a right winger who simply started banning leftists who stood up to their crap). To be blunt the right now reaps what they sowed. They encouraged the conspiracy nuts and they attacked the left leaving themselves no where to stand. So much for taking the high road. [8\|]

DomKen -> RE: GOP pushback against Tea Party (11/6/2013 10:03:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri Too many times. It happens too many times in the physical world and too many times here in the cyber world. It's happened for a long, long time, too. I'm sure Reagan and Bush 41 had theirs (there are some here that still do that). Clinton, too. Bush 43's 8 years were pretty much wall-to-wall rantings and foaming at the mouth (won't comment as to what it was like here, as I wasn't here). The President of the US is a damn powerful job, and carries with it, a virtual target for rantings and ravings. I was here for a good chunk of those 8 terrible years and while the left's dislike of W was not hidden leftists were routinely called traitors, communists, terrorism supporters and pretty much anything else certain right wingers could get away with (which was a lot since Mod XI was a right winger who simply started banning leftists who stood up to their crap). To be blunt the right now reaps what they sowed. They encouraged the conspiracy nuts and they attacked the left leaving themselves no where to stand. So much for taking the high road. [8\|] The American left tried that. We got called traitors and communists. We had cons actually talking about deporting us. So now we hit back. If that bothers you make your side stop trying to get rid of us or portray us as un-American.

DaddySatyr -> RE: GOP pushback against Tea Party (11/6/2013 11:35:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri Too many times. It happens too many times in the physical world and too many times here in the cyber world. It's happened for a long, long time, too. I'm sure Reagan and Bush 41 had theirs (there are some here that still do that). Clinton, too. Bush 43's 8 years were pretty much wall-to-wall rantings and foaming at the mouth (won't comment as to what it was like here, as I wasn't here). The President of the US is a damn powerful job, and carries with it, a virtual target for rantings and ravings. I was here for a good chunk of those 8 terrible years and while the left's dislike of W was not hidden leftists were routinely called traitors, communists, terrorism supporters and pretty much anything else certain right wingers could get away with (which was a lot since Mod XI was a right winger who simply started banning leftists who stood up to their crap). To be blunt the right now reaps what they sowed. They encouraged the conspiracy nuts and they attacked the left leaving themselves no where to stand. That's pretty funny, right there since XI is somewhere left of Obummer.

Yachtie -> RE: GOP pushback against Tea Party (11/7/2013 3:13:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: joether quote: ORIGINAL: Yachtie quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail That to the Union of the States this nation owes its unprecedented increase in population; its surprising development of material resources; its rapid augmentation of wealth; its happiness at home and its honor abroad; and we hold in abhorrence all schemes for disunion, come from whatever source they may; and we congratulate the country that no republican member of congress has uttered or countenanced the threats of disunion so often made by democratic members, without rebuke and with applause from their political associates; and we denounce those threats of disunion, in case of a popular overthrow of their ascendancy, as denying the vital principles of a free government, and as an avowal of contemplated treason, which it is the imperative duty of an indignant people sternly to rebuke and forever silence. That while providing revenue for the support of the general government by duties upon imports, sound policy requires such an adjustment of these imposts as to encourage the development of the industrial interests of the whole country, and we commend that policy of national exchanges which secures to the workingmen liberal wages, to agriculture remunerating prices, to mechanics and manufacturers an adequate reward for their skill, labor and enterprise, and to the nation commercial prosperity and independence. That the Republican Party is opposed to any change in our naturalization laws, or any state legislation by which the rights of citizenship hitherto accorded by emigrants from foreign lands shall be abridged or impaired; and in favor of giving a full and efficient protection to the rights of all classes of citizens, whether native or naturalized, both at home and abroad. Oh, thats enough, they ain't doing shit.... Nice quoting [:D] Where did ya get that? [8D] Rand Paul?[;)] The text MN refers comes from The Republican National Platform of 1860. I did just a simple goggle search of "That to the Union of the States this nation owes its unprecedented increase in population...". When you cant even answer a simple question as 'where did it come from', I have to seriously doubt your ability to handle complex of complicated subject matter. You really sre slow. [8\|]

mnottertail -> RE: GOP pushback against Tea Party (11/7/2013 4:57:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri Every self-described Tea Party supporter I've come in contact with has worked on a daily basis (that doesn't mean they work 7 days a week, but you should see the point). Wait, I take that back. That's not true. The vast majority of Tea Party supporters I've come in contact with worked on a daily basis. The rest had retired from working on a daily basis. Every self described non-nutsacker I have come in contact with, are situated identically. That really has nothing to do with nothing.

DesideriScuri -> RE: GOP pushback against Tea Party (11/7/2013 5:51:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri Too many times. It happens too many times in the physical world and too many times here in the cyber world. It's happened for a long, long time, too. I'm sure Reagan and Bush 41 had theirs (there are some here that still do that). Clinton, too. Bush 43's 8 years were pretty much wall-to-wall rantings and foaming at the mouth (won't comment as to what it was like here, as I wasn't here). The President of the US is a damn powerful job, and carries with it, a virtual target for rantings and ravings. I was here for a good chunk of those 8 terrible years and while the left's dislike of W was not hidden leftists were routinely called traitors, communists, terrorism supporters and pretty much anything else certain right wingers could get away with (which was a lot since Mod XI was a right winger who simply started banning leftists who stood up to their crap). To be blunt the right now reaps what they sowed. They encouraged the conspiracy nuts and they attacked the left leaving themselves no where to stand. So much for taking the high road. [8\|] The American left tried that. We got called traitors and communists. We had cons actually talking about deporting us. So now we hit back. If that bothers you make your side stop trying to get rid of us or portray us as un-American. I'm going to assume your last statement wasn't using "you" in the personal, but in the general form. When did the American left try it?

DomKen -> RE: GOP pushback against Tea Party (11/7/2013 6:08:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri Too many times. It happens too many times in the physical world and too many times here in the cyber world. It's happened for a long, long time, too. I'm sure Reagan and Bush 41 had theirs (there are some here that still do that). Clinton, too. Bush 43's 8 years were pretty much wall-to-wall rantings and foaming at the mouth (won't comment as to what it was like here, as I wasn't here). The President of the US is a damn powerful job, and carries with it, a virtual target for rantings and ravings. I was here for a good chunk of those 8 terrible years and while the left's dislike of W was not hidden leftists were routinely called traitors, communists, terrorism supporters and pretty much anything else certain right wingers could get away with (which was a lot since Mod XI was a right winger who simply started banning leftists who stood up to their crap). To be blunt the right now reaps what they sowed. They encouraged the conspiracy nuts and they attacked the left leaving themselves no where to stand. So much for taking the high road. [8\|] The American left tried that. We got called traitors and communists. We had cons actually talking about deporting us. So now we hit back. If that bothers you make your side stop trying to get rid of us or portray us as un-American. I'm going to assume your last statement wasn't using "you" in the personal, but in the general form. When did the American left try it? before 1992 and sporadically since.

DomKen -> RE: GOP pushback against Tea Party (11/7/2013 6:12:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri Too many times. It happens too many times in the physical world and too many times here in the cyber world. It's happened for a long, long time, too. I'm sure Reagan and Bush 41 had theirs (there are some here that still do that). Clinton, too. Bush 43's 8 years were pretty much wall-to-wall rantings and foaming at the mouth (won't comment as to what it was like here, as I wasn't here). The President of the US is a damn powerful job, and carries with it, a virtual target for rantings and ravings. I was here for a good chunk of those 8 terrible years and while the left's dislike of W was not hidden leftists were routinely called traitors, communists, terrorism supporters and pretty much anything else certain right wingers could get away with (which was a lot since Mod XI was a right winger who simply started banning leftists who stood up to their crap). To be blunt the right now reaps what they sowed. They encouraged the conspiracy nuts and they attacked the left leaving themselves no where to stand. That's pretty funny, right there since XI is somewhere left of Obummer. You're full of it. she systematically banned almost every leftist poster here. But Sanity, Wilbeurdaddy, luckydawg and numerous other right wing posters broke every rule in the book and kept right on posting. When she left, or the site owners fired her, we were all invited to come back and I don't recall a single right winger saying they'd been banned and were back.

DesideriScuri -> RE: GOP pushback against Tea Party (11/7/2013 6:17:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri So much for taking the high road. [8\|] The American left tried that. We got called traitors and communists. We had cons actually talking about deporting us. So now we hit back. If that bothers you make your side stop trying to get rid of us or portray us as un-American. I'm going to assume your last statement wasn't using "you" in the personal, but in the general form. When did the American left try it? before 1992 and sporadically since. It wasn't done during W's Administration, and, in case you've forgotten, the biggest retort from lefties is that people who oppose Obama's policies are racists. So, it doesn't look like they are doing it during O's Administration, either. It ain't happening, Ken. And, just to prevent a deflection, it isn't okay when the GOP does it, either. And, it isn't okay that the GOP did it, has done it, or is doing it.

tweakabelle -> RE: GOP pushback against Tea Party (11/7/2013 6:45:04 AM)
DS, If the argument in the OP is valid, and the tea party folks are being rejected by a majority of the electorate, then how do you see those folks reacting to that rejection, to being frozen out of office and power? If the tea party movement is rejected by the GOP as it charts a more pragmatic approach, how will the tea party people react? My suspicion is that most of them will accept their defeat with varying amounts of grace, but that sizeable numbers may resort to more extreme measures. The US has already seen some rather ugly acts committed by Right wing extremists - do you see more of this happening ?

DesideriScuri -> RE: GOP pushback against Tea Party (11/7/2013 7:00:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle DS, If the argument in the OP is valid, and the tea party folks are being rejected by a majority of the electorate, then how do you see those folks reacting to that rejection, to being frozen out of office and power? If the tea party movement is rejected by the GOP as it charts a more pragmatic approach, how will the tea party people react? My suspicion is that most of them will accept their defeat with varying amounts of grace, but that sizeable numbers may resort to more extreme measures. The US has already seen some rather ugly acts committed by Right wing extremists - do you see more of this happening ? I think they will continue to run and push for their beliefs. That's what I think will happen. And, I certainly hope there aren't any ugly acts committed - by any party. If you aren't going to continue to run on your beliefs, then, what's the point anyway? Either you run on your convictions, or you don't. If there are enough people who agree with your convictions, you win. A huge problem in America, is that there aren't enough voters who keep up on who believes in what, politically speaking. They are the oft-labeled "low information" voters. And, in case anyone is wondering, there are plenty of those within each and every Party label. If the Tea Party is jettisoned from the GOP, the GOP will suffer as the Tea Party types find a new party. I'm thinking it will be the Libertarian Party, but it could also be the Independent Party. Things are going to be interesting, going forward. Want my prediction? I think the D's are going to be in power for a bit longer as the conservative voters get split out, but I do think the GOP is either going to ride into the sunset, or change to be a different GOP. I don't see the Tea Party voting bloc leaving politics.

DomKen -> RE: GOP pushback against Tea Party (11/7/2013 7:29:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri So much for taking the high road. [8\|] The American left tried that. We got called traitors and communists. We had cons actually talking about deporting us. So now we hit back. If that bothers you make your side stop trying to get rid of us or portray us as un-American. I'm going to assume your last statement wasn't using "you" in the personal, but in the general form. When did the American left try it? before 1992 and sporadically since. It wasn't done during W's Administration, and, in case you've forgotten, the biggest retort from lefties is that people who oppose Obama's policies are racists. So, it doesn't look like they are doing it during O's Administration, either. It ain't happening, Ken. And, just to prevent a deflection, it isn't okay when the GOP does it, either. And, it isn't okay that the GOP did it, has done it, or is doing it. I said we tried it and we did. We watched good men get destroyed by the GOP dirty tricks machine. We're not going to keep letting the cons destroy this nation so we're going to fight just as dirty. And yes it was done during W's administration. Kerry tried to run a high ground campaign and got the swift boat vileness for his troubles. And we are unlikely to ever forget how Max Cleland was treated. As a matter of fact Obama has run 2 high road campaigns. no dirty tricks and no negative attacks. As to the claim that we call all opponents of Obama racists that is a simple lie. we call racists racists. If you make up some idiotic conspiracy theory involving hundreds of government officials to hide that the man was born in Kenya or some other stupid nonsense in order to declare him ineligible for the office then I'm going to call you a racist. If you start calling a program created by right wing think tanks a "socialist takeover of health care" then I'm going to wonder. but if you disagree with the President's policies in a rational manner then no one I know is going to call you a racist based on that. As a matter of fact most on the left vehemently disagree with the President on many things and no one calls us racists.

tweakabelle -> RE: GOP pushback against Tea Party (11/7/2013 7:30:08 AM)
DS, I hope your analysis proves correct though I have to say that I am not as blase about these people taking their defeat meekly. I get the sense that a lot of them already feel betrayed by mainstream politics. If the party they regard as their 'own' shows them the door, I suspect there will be a lot of frustrated and alienated folk who may make the calculation that they have nothing to lose any more.

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