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RE: Iran - 12/2/2013 11:00:36 PM

Phydeaux

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

But for that to happen, the palestinians first have to accept that israel has a right to exist.

Actually, they already have by negotiating, however poorly and clearly disadvantaged, in Oslo. The question is how much of their land can they surrender? It is clear to me from the settlement movement that the Israel religious right is determined to regain all of the "promised land." That theological dogma is their only claim to the right to exist.

Fatah recognized that Israel has a right to exist. However Fatah does not speak for all palestinians.
Hamas (and most other organizations of palestinians)- which controls Gaza does not recognize Israels right to exist.

http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/insideisrael/2013/September/Hamas-No-Agreement-that-Includes-Israels-Right-to-Exist/

Tweakabelle has (nonsensically) called me bloodthirsty when it is the palestinians and other arabs that continue to call for the destruction of Israel.

She called me morally bankrupt - because I point out that there is no one in palestine at the moment capable of being a partner for peace.

As has happened several times already in this thread, Physdeaux's re-hash of Israeli propaganda puts his claims at considerable variance with the truth. For instance, he neglects to mention that the governing Likud party in Israel has in its constitution a clause that "flatly rejects" any Palestinian State on the West Bank.

Despite Phydeaux's claims to the contrary, Palestinians have recognised Israel's right to exist for over two decades. The priority Israel gives to the settlements make it crystal clear that Israel has no intention of ever ceding control of the West Bank to a Palestinian State - it intends to keep the West Bank for itself. Israel doesn't want to negotiate peace with the Palestinians, it wants to steal their country and deny Palestinians their rights to Statehood and self determination forever. And Zionists have the gall to complain that they don't a 'partner' for the peace that Israel is doing everything it can to avoid. Can any one nominate a more hypocritical posture?

There are in excess of half a million Israelis illegally colonising the West Bank, with the numbers growing daily. Israel has deliberately cultivated this enormous obstacle to peace with the sole intention of preventing forever the emergence of a Palestinian State. This is compounded by brutal Israeli policies of ethnic cleansing, State-sponsored colonist violence and apartheid against defenceless Palestinians, all designed to drive the Palestinians from their traditional homes and homeland. In over 20 years of on-off negotiations, Israel has yet to produce a single map showing its ideas of what final status borders might look like.

By its actions, Israel has shown time and time again that it has no intention of ever allowing the Palestinians a State of their own, ensuring that a just and lasting peace will never occur. As Phydeaux has openly stated, he and his fellow apologists for Zionism regard the very idea of "a just and lasting peace" as "idiocy", as a never to be realised fantasy. Doesn't that tell us all we need to know?

Apparently you don't bother to read the quotes by the head of Hamas, september this year deny israel's right to exist.
Perhaps thats all we need to know about your literacy.

As for your claim that Israel will never allow the palestinians a home state: I don't suppose you have any evidence.
Of course not.

As for your statement that Israel had never proposed a single map: this is so easily demonstrated false:
For example: http://imeu.net/news/article00148.shtml

Or here: http://www.google.com/imgres?sa=X&biw=728&bih=825&tbm=isch&tbnid=m_7Xg90uZi_2fM:&imgrefurl=http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-19701090&docid=CuHSod7Ps7m0NM&imgurl=http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/63099000/gif/_63099046_westbank_old_4new464x510.gif&w=464&h=510&ei=b4CdUr37B6rC2AXYuoDwAQ&zoom=1&iact=rc&dur=1141&page=1&tbnh=138&tbnw=126&start=0&ndsp=30&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:0,i:84&tx=166&ty=142

Apparently they don't have google whatever Israel hating hole tweak hails from.

Regarding the claim that Israel wants to 'steal' their country. Newsflash tweak. They already conquered parts of Jordan, egypt, syria.
You can't steal what you already own. Israel's offer to return it - is evidence of a desire for peace. Although, why they would ever want peace with a people that continually shower rockets upon them - beats me.

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RE: Iran - 12/3/2013 1:57:07 AM

crazyml

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
You can't steal what you already own. Israel's offer to return it - is evidence of a desire for peace. Although, why they would ever want peace with a people that continually shower rockets upon them - beats me.

You're aware that Israel's "ownership" of the occupied (or "conquered" if you prefer) territories is a matter of dispute?

You're aware that Israel has not offered to return all of the territory it occupies, and occupies illegally in the view of many?

I think you're absolutely right to insist that others base their arguments on facts, but if you're not willing to do the same yourself, you're apt to appear just a little bit silly.

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RE: Iran - 12/3/2013 8:22:41 AM

Phydeaux

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
You can't steal what you already own. Israel's offer to return it - is evidence of a desire for peace. Although, why they would ever want peace with a people that continually shower rockets upon them - beats me.

You're aware that Israel's "ownership" of the occupied (or "conquered" if you prefer) territories is a matter of dispute?

You're aware that Israel has not offered to return all of the territory it occupies, and occupies illegally in the view of many?

I think you're absolutely right to insist that others base their arguments on facts, but if you're not willing to do the same yourself, you're apt to appear just a little bit silly.

I'm aware that Israeli settlers live on it. I'm aware that Israeli troops patrol it. I'm aware Israel collects taxes on it. I'm aware that Israel has walled it in. Thats the only kind of ownership that matters.

I'm certainly aware that certain people claiming to be "palestinians" believe they have a right to it. Just, as I'm sure, somewhere there are Englishmen that claim they have a right to portions of the US.

Can Israel be forced off the land it occupies? Certainly. Perhaps militarily, perhaps it will do so voluntarily. But the same is true of any nation, isn't it. For example, the chinese are stealing millions of miles - from the russians, from the vietnamese, from the japanese.

So certainly, the so-called palestinians "dispute" this or that. Hardly changes the fact that, in deed, the Israeli's own it.

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RE: Iran - 12/3/2013 10:38:58 AM

crazyml

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

So certainly, the so-called palestinians "dispute" this or that. Hardly changes the fact that, in deed, the Israeli's own it.

I'm sorry, you're so utterly confused about the status of the occupied territories that I don't know where to begin.

Given how quick you are to criticise others for making unsubstantiated statements, it seems rather odd that you should persist in this way.

There is absolutely no "fact" that the Israelis own the occupied territories. It is not a fact, because it is not true. It is not true because a great number of entities dispute that claim - I am sure that you are not so stupid that you would claim that it is only the Palestinians that dispute the status of the the occupied territories.

If you wish to have a mature discussion about the future of Palestine, you must be sure to be less ignorant.

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RE: Iran - 12/3/2013 12:45:22 PM

kdsub

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Well I see the thread has shifted from Iran to Israel…as always I’m afraid. It is also slowing down so I thought I’d add a little spice to the discussion.

Imagine how it would have been many years ago when Israel was first created if the surrounding Arab countries had not tried to destroy the budding nation. There could have been peace, prosperity and religious freedom for all….But they didn’t.

They got their asses kicked even though they had a superior force occupying the high and strategically important ground.

Then they did it again and still got their asses reamed. How many times must a country be attacked before it retaliates and claims the spoils of war? That is what has happened… do you really think Israel…or any country… will allow itself to be attacked over and over without taking steps to prevent the next war?

How many other countries have NOT taken land when attacked by another? The Palestinians and their allies are now suffering because of their past aggressions and must now deal with Israel as a loser not a winner of their wars. This is a fact all must understand...it does no good to deny it...or rant against it...it is how it is like it or not.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 12/3/2013 12:47:19 PM >

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RE: Iran - 12/3/2013 1:57:43 PM

crazyml

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There's a teensy flaw there.

You could just have easily started with "Imagine how it would have been, many years ago, if the international community had chosen not to impose an artificially created state upon the indigenous population of that region".

And terms like "conquered land" and "spoils of war" have no useful meaning whatsoever.

The UN has determined that the occupation of those lands is illegal. This is the same body that created Israel in the first place - So if you deny the authority of the UN to determine the status of the occupied territories, you deny the right of the UN to create Israel in the first place.

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RE: Iran - 12/3/2013 4:06:49 PM

Politesub53

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Crazy nails it.

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RE: Iran - 12/3/2013 5:38:03 PM

kdsub

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quote:

You could just have easily started with "Imagine how it would have been, many years ago, if the international community had chosen not to impose an artificially created state upon the indigenous population of that region".

You mean the indigenous population that was perfectly happy to accept money for land?

quote:

And terms like "conquered land" and "spoils of war" have no useful meaning whatsoever

Oh but they do in reality...Israel has taken the land and chose to settle it...Now please explain how this is not spoils of war.

If you and your like would get your high and mighty heads out of the clouds and deal with reality there may be a solution in the future. But guaranteed there will be no concession on settlements with rockets falling at will.

I have never said one side or the other was right in this tragic conflict but not facing reality will just mean more years of suffering.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 12/3/2013 5:45:11 PM >

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RE: Iran - 12/3/2013 9:04:28 PM

tweakabelle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

So certainly, the so-called palestinians "dispute" this or that. Hardly changes the fact that, in deed, the Israeli's own it.

I'm sorry, you're so utterly confused about the status of the occupied territories that I don't know where to begin.

Given how quick you are to criticise others for making unsubstantiated statements, it seems rather odd that you should persist in this way.

There is absolutely no "fact" that the Israelis own the occupied territories. It is not a fact, because it is not true. It is not true because a great number of entities dispute that claim - I am sure that you are not so stupid that you would claim that it is only the Palestinians that dispute the status of the the occupied territories.

If you wish to have a mature discussion about the future of Palestine, you must be sure to be less ignorant.

There is one relevant fact here.

All parties - the Israelis, the Palestinians, the international community the UN etc - agree that the status of the lands in question is "Occupied". Officially the Israeli Govt refers to the West Bank as the "Occupied Territories". All parties agree that Israel is the "Occupant" and that Israel's legal status is that of "occupying authority" Obviously, a country can only be recognised as an "occupying authority" when it occupies foreign lands, not its homeland.

East Jerusalem and the Golan excepted, Israel has made no legal claim of ownership over the West Bank, either in Israeli law or international law. Israeli attempts to annexe East Jerusalem were declared "null and void" by the UN Security Council (in a legally binding resolution) and are not recognised by any other country, including the US.

Therefore, assertions or claims such as those of Phydeaux that Israel "owns" the West Bank, or that it has any rightful title to the West Bank, are utterly false and without any foundation in fact or law. The actual ownership may be disputed, but there is no dispute over the fact that Israel doesn't "own", or have any title to the West Bank.

Palestinian claims to the West Bank and Gaza as part of a Palestinian State are recognised by over 120 countries, or about 2/3 of the world's States.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 12/3/2013 9:27:52 PM >

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RE: Iran - 12/4/2013 3:23:21 AM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

You mean the indigenous population that was perfectly happy to accept money for land?

I know you said you wanted to spice things up, is ignorance really the way to do it though ?

Are you seriously suggesting there have been no illegal clearances, nor ethnic cleansing, nor blatant land grabs ? Doesn`t Plan D ring any bells ?

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RE: Iran - 12/4/2013 6:34:29 AM

vincentML

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quote:

You mean the indigenous population that was perfectly happy to accept money for land?

The land owners who took money were absentee landlords from Turkey who were fleeing as the Ottoman Empire crashed around them.

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RE: Iran - 12/4/2013 8:24:50 AM

kdsub

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Politesub I've not said or insinuated any of those things. I am not picking sides... Or justifying actions of either side. I am only stating reality that some on this thread refuse to acknowledge.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 12/4/2013 8:25:44 AM >

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RE: Iran - 12/4/2013 8:38:15 AM

mnottertail

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I do want to point this out, regarding Iran, and why I am not worried:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9U8CZAKSsNA&feature=player_embedded

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RE: Iran - 12/4/2013 10:48:59 AM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Politesub I've not said or insinuated any of those things. I am not picking sides... Or justifying actions of either side. I am only stating reality that some on this thread refuse to acknowledge.

Butch

Here is on big insinuation that you posted. "You mean the indigenous population that was perfectly happy to accept money for land? "

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RE: Iran - 12/4/2013 10:56:34 AM

vincentML

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

I do want to point this out, regarding Iran, and why I am not worried:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9U8CZAKSsNA&feature=player_embedded

Remarkable. Thanks.

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RE: Iran - 12/4/2013 1:15:52 PM

kdsub

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Just to show balance.... Politesub... My statement is the truth or it is not. In fact it is the truth. Telling the truth is not picking sides. I was making a point that there is often two ways of looking at history In this mess.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 12/4/2013 1:16:43 PM >

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RE: Iran - 12/4/2013 4:28:48 PM

Politesub53

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Butch...... Balance would be pointing out ALL the facts.

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RE: Iran - 12/4/2013 5:57:01 PM

kdsub

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quote:

Butch...... Balance would be pointing out ALL the facts.

Yes it would...but is this thread the place to do it? I seem to remember many such threads in the past where all of this has been discussed.
I was making a direct comment to another, for balance, not trying to re-start an argument on whether Israel is a legitimate nation and its right to exist and methods of defense.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 12/4/2013 5:58:17 PM >

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RE: Iran - 12/4/2013 11:22:00 PM

Phydeaux

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

So certainly, the so-called palestinians "dispute" this or that. Hardly changes the fact that, in deed, the Israeli's own it.

I'm sorry, you're so utterly confused about the status of the occupied territories that I don't know where to begin.

Given how quick you are to criticise others for making unsubstantiated statements, it seems rather odd that you should persist in this way.

There is absolutely no "fact" that the Israelis own the occupied territories. It is not a fact, because it is not true. It is not true because a great number of entities dispute that claim - I am sure that you are not so stupid that you would claim that it is only the Palestinians that dispute the status of the the occupied territories.

If you wish to have a mature discussion about the future of Palestine, you must be sure to be less ignorant.

The number of people that dispute a claim is irrelevent. You and tweak should get your story together.

Either Israel is the occupying power (ie., occupies the land) - as tweak says. Or it isn't.
If it occupies it - it owns it.

Until such time as someone or something else comes a long and kicks them out. The same as it has been all through history.
*you* say the natterings of the UN - or the natterings of 120 states matter. I say "prove it". How many UN declarations have tried to dislodge Israel? For that matter, who is going to kick the Russians out of ossetia? Or the greeks out of cyprus. The brits out of the falklands or northern ireland.

We will see further examples of this as china claims the japanese, filipino, and vietnamese islands. And all the yammering in the world of the UN won't change it one iota.

quote:

quote:

There is one relevant fact here.

All parties - the Israelis, the Palestinians, the international community the UN etc - agree that the status of the lands in question is "Occupied". Officially the Israeli Govt refers to the West Bank as the "Occupied Territories". All parties agree that Israel is the "Occupant" and that Israel's legal status is that of "occupying authority" Obviously, a country can only be recognised as an "occupying authority" when it occupies foreign lands, not its homeland.

East Jerusalem and the Golan excepted, Israel has made no legal claim of ownership over the West Bank, either in Israeli law or international law. Israeli attempts to annexe East Jerusalem were declared "null and void" by the UN Security Council (in a legally binding resolution) and are not recognised by any other country, including the US.

Therefore, assertions or claims such as those of Phydeaux that Israel "owns" the West Bank, or that it has any rightful title to the West Bank, are utterly false and without any foundation in fact or law. The actual ownership may be disputed, but there is no dispute over the fact that Israel doesn't "own", or have any title to the West Bank.

Palestinian claims to the West Bank and Gaza as part of a Palestinian State are recognised by over 120 countries, or about 2/3 of the world's States.

The territory that Israel claims for its own changes (and generallyl increases as time goes on. I've already alluded to that fact. I've already alluded to the fact that israel hasn't claimed (all) the lands - despite the fact that the palestinians were ready to flee into exile after - what is the arab term for the war - 'the embarassment? the mourning? the humiliation".

A quick fait accompli would have probably stood the Israelis in good stead.

The idea of 'rightful title' is once again - idiotic. Israel has rightful title by the only right that matters. Oh sure, the idiots at the UN will ring their hands. But so long as britain or the US have a seat in the security council - thats all it will come to. Handwringing.

So again I say. Israel occupies, claims (whatever) by the only right that matters.

Force.

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RE: Iran - 12/4/2013 11:28:16 PM

Phydeaux

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Going back to Iran, for a minute

Why is the iran deal a bad idea? Well how about the fact that Iran is spending 600-700 million a month in Syria. Along with Hezbollah, helping to prop up the realm of Assad.

So explain to me how this deal is brilliant. We are spending millions of dollars providing aid to the rebels - and the deal O'Stupid proposed makes it easier for Iran to provide aid to Assad. Like I said. Brilliant.

I do like that the sunni's are pretty much engaged in a full fledged war against the Shia. Schism in the muslim empire - pretty much the only thing that stopped the muslims from conquering the west on two occassions before....

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