RE: Weaponry, protecting what's yours (Full Version)

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CrappyDom -> RE: Weaponry, protecting what's yours (7/14/2006 8:36:46 AM)

States that adopt laws that guarantee concealed weapons permits to law abiding citizens see a decrease in violent crime, even the anti gun CDC admits this.

Second, some of us are playing out the old joke about the woman offered a million bucks for sleeping with someone and when we say yes, getting offended when asked to do it for $50.  We get offended and ask "what kind of woman do you think I am"

You either leave the house blissfully unworried about who you may encounter or you worry and train for it.  Philosophically, there is no difference between learning martial arts, always walking to your car with your keys between your finger or on a can of mace, carrying a gun, or hiring a bodyguard.  You fear something and you are doing something to counter that fear.

Being male, 6'2, and evil looking I am quite lucky and in general never have to give any of it a second thought.  On those very very rare occasions when I do give it a second thought, I carry the biggest fucking thing I can given the circumstances.



CrappyDom -> RE: Weaponry, protecting what's yours (7/14/2006 8:39:34 AM)

IB,

Excellent post, I walk my women in a similar manner although I have them walk in front of me on the right when I am in a place where I feel I need to be more protective.  Thanks to your post, they will walk to the left of me....!



vield -> RE: Weaponry, protecting what's yours (7/14/2006 8:50:27 AM)

One VERY big problem about "experts" in self defense as well as in other fields is that many are self appointed, many have an ax to grind politically, and you do NOT know if they are telling the truth or not. Obviously they are pushing their own agenda, as we all (including me) do.

No hand weapon is so effective that possession of it gives one full control of others. Television and movies not withstanding, points weapons sort of at someone does not mean you can hit your target. Lots of would be bad guys find this out the hard way.

Listen to someone who has been in real fire fights in the military. Then ask yourself why the person is alive and able to talk, if guns were pointed at them.

We all are responsible for our own safety, as police can not do anything until a crime hqas been committed.

Guns can misfire, break, be improperly loaded, and many other things. The gun operator also can miss, even if she or he is an expert shot who practices often. You might be killed if you run and scream or throw a purse or the groceries at the bad person. You might only get wounded a bit. You might get away completely.

However if you allow someone to take charge of you and bind you and take you away to a private place to deal with you as they choose, your chances of being unharmed go way down as do your survival chances.

Everyone has to make their own moral decision about resistant, violent self defense, aggressive or passive resistance and so forth. We are all different so our answers will often be different.

Just remember, if you choose to arm yourself to protect yourself, it is your obligation to learn how to use your weapons of choice proerly and proficiently. You do not want to injure innocents yourself, and you also must remember that your gun can malfunction too, you can miss your target too.

vield



Sparr0w -> RE: Weaponry, protecting what's yours (7/14/2006 10:01:14 AM)

In reply to the OP:
 
Despite having guns in my house, I am not a firm believer in them for home/self defense. I truly believe that the best weapon there is, is yourself.
I have however, since the age of 18, trained in Krav Maga, which is a form of self-defense. I have only had to use it twice in all my years for defense, once against a person who broke in, and once against a person on the street.
Since I have an unmentionable in the house with me, I much perfer this to the use of guns ( though she has been trained in the use of guns also ), and she has begun her own training in self-defense; though her's is of a different nature than the training that I have received.



juliaoceania -> RE: Weaponry, protecting what's yours (7/14/2006 10:06:48 AM)

I find every bit of this true, we should evaluate all information on the subject individually and respond according to each situation using our gut reaction, because intuition serves us well. I also agree with the part about never agreeing to go to a second location, especially a female person, but this advice applies to all of course. Going to a second location means that they probably want to do weird things with you before they kill you, and it isn't of the consensual kink variety.

Of course I have much trust in what Sinergy says, I have heard him speak on the subject over and over again, and being his submissive I am going to mirror what he has said on the subject because I have trust in him and his views. So perhaps my outlook is going to be colored by this....smiles



Sinergy -> RE: Weaponry, protecting what's yours (7/14/2006 7:27:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I didn't take Sinergy's post to mean that everyone that talked about weapons or had weapons was somehow a "Quick Draw McGraw", I thought he was talking about a certain type of gun owner that would shoot first and ask questions later and thinks that a gun is going to trump any other way of defending themselves.. there are other ways.



Hello A/all,

Thank you, juliaoceania, but that was not my meaning.

Guns impart a feeling of invincibility on an otherwise largely
(from a natural selection point of view) defenseless, easily damaged organism.  "I cant be hurt, I am armed with a Mac-10 with armor piercing rounds and a lazer sight."

People who flaunt their ability with guns, in my opinion, fail to take into effect the dampening of skill under adrenal stress.  Additionally, they tend to fail to do adequate research to determine if their own personal method of self-protection is statistically relevant.

For example, pepper spray.  Works great for bears.  Works reasonably well for people, assuming you actually have the opportunity to use it.  But depressing the plunger on a can
of pepper spray is a fine motor skill, not to mention aiming it.  A
person walking up to somebody, asking for change, and as the person roots around in their wallet gets cold cocked from left field, probably will not have the opportunity to fumble around with their pepper spray, aim it, and fire.  To actually be an effective sort of
defense one has to have it in one's hands for it to be of any use at all.

American police officers tend to frown on somebody walking around with a drawn gun, "locked, cocked, and ready to rock," on city streets or in a bar.  Even a concealed weapon carrier still has to get their weapon out and use it.  The statistically most likely assault is the guy who blindsides you before you knew there was an issue.  The least statistically likely assault is the guy that screams at you that he is going to kill you while 100 yards away charging at you.

Im not saying that studying unarmed self-defense for years and years will be a more effective defense. 

If you have something or some skill to defend yourself, how good you are at doing it tends to be trumped by whether you are in a position to be able to use it in the first place.  Most people, in my experience, learn how to kill paper at a target range or punch a heavy bag, and dont bother to learn how assaults happen, how to avoid putting themselves in situations where they will happen, or how to verbally talk their way out of one.

As usual, this is just me and I could be wrong.

Sinergy



CrappyDom -> RE: Weaponry, protecting what's yours (7/14/2006 7:45:24 PM)

quote:

People who flaunt their ability with guns, in my opinion, fail to take into effect the dampening of skill under adrenal stress.


The fact that you can't see the flaw in this statement and your outlook means it isn't just the shades that are blinding you.



Sinergy -> RE: Weaponry, protecting what's yours (7/14/2006 7:55:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CrappyDom

quote:

People who flaunt their ability with guns, in my opinion, fail to take into effect the dampening of skill under adrenal stress.


The fact that you can't see the flaw in this statement and your outlook means it isn't just the shades that are blinding you.


I dont understand this statement.

I train students, and have been trained myself, under the influence of adrenalin in realistic scenarios using a large motor movements, such
as knee kicks, elbows, against a moving and armored (so I could hit full force without damaging the instructor) teacher trying to piss me off, scare me, and sometimes even hit me, etc.

Please clarify the point you are trying to make, CrappyDom.

Regards,

Sinergy



CrappyDom -> RE: Weaponry, protecting what's yours (7/14/2006 8:15:52 PM)

You have time and time again made sly comments about people who look to guns as "overcompensating" which is pretty funny from someone who has made something of a life teaching self defense...

Your posts smell of "one true way" to me and I find it tiresome.  If you don't have the presence of mind to shoot someone I doubt you have the presence of mind to defeat them by hand either. 




Sinergy -> RE: Weaponry, protecting what's yours (7/14/2006 8:29:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CrappyDom

You have time and time again made sly comments about people who look to guns as "overcompensating" which is pretty funny from someone who has made something of a life teaching self defense...

Your posts smell of "one true way" to me and I find it tiresome.  If you don't have the presence of mind to shoot someone I doubt you have the presence of mind to defeat them by hand either. 



CrappyDom,

Overcompensating?  No.  I have simply pointed out that I dont actually believe that owning a gun is all that much protection in a real life assault situation.  This is my personal opinion based largely on things I have learned on the job in an industry I work in, as well as my own personal preference.

Regarding the snide comment about my presence of mind and my ability to defeat somebody, I have used my unarmed skills in a life and death situation against one attacker wielding a knife, as well as one that was unarmed (although rather drunk) attacker.  Have you ever used your self-defense or weapon skills in "The Real World" or are your comments strictly theoretical?

While you take it that I am a "one true way" kind of person, this is incorrect.  I am simply sharing aspects of self-defense which I have learned and taught for years.  What you do with the information I share really makes little difference to me.

Regards,

Sinergy



mistoferin -> RE: Weaponry, protecting what's yours (7/14/2006 9:57:22 PM)

I have been kind of avoiding this thread because I just didn't want to escalate the tit for tat going on. I have a lot of pretty strong opinions about guns, self defense and weaponry in general. It is my personal belief that one can never be too prepared...regardless of whether or not they ever have a need to use a skill...the skill ought to be kept finely honed. Bad things do happen to good people in this world and I for one, am more prepared than most to deal with it if it comes along.

Maybe this has to do with my days of fighting but I understand what you are saying about the power of adrenalin. I understand that it can be blinding(have had that experience and there really is such a thing as seeing stars before your eyes)...I understand that it can be crippling and sap every ounce of muscle strength or control you have(have had that experience too)....or it can be an awesome boost of power if you understand it, are prepared for it and have had some experience training under it.

It doesn't matter what weapon you choose...be it a gun or a katana or your hands....as long as you choose to be skilled in the use of the one you pick. It is also important that you at least attempt to hone your "people" skills so that you can better guage exactly what it is you are facing.

I have had the unpleasant experience several times in my life of being on the business end of a gun. One of those times that weapon quickly changed hands and I reversed the aim....because I knew the person holding that gun had every ounce of their bravado at the end of their hand....and none behind it. One of those times the person holding that gun got every single demand he made granted....because I was able to look into his eyes and know that not doing so would indeed be a fatal mistake on my part.

Personally, I believe in being prepared....often times that means being armed in some way. When I lived in the country I would walk 7 miles every morning. I carried with me a can of pepper spray in case of animals. It came in handy one morning when I was confronted by a very large and angry dog who came out of the fields. When I came home I would set the can on a shelf behind the door. One night a man came and knocked at the door. When I answered the door he hit it like a bulldozer. I managed to wedge my foot up against the stair to brace myself against the door. He grabbed my shirt and tried ripping me through the opening that he had managed to wedge his foot in. My shirt gave way and he managed to find my throat....and then my hair. With every ounce of strength I had I managed to hold that door long enough to get a hand on that pepper spray. I managed to give him a full face dose of it. Immediately he let go of my hair and jumped back allowing the weight of me to slam the door shut (but not before the wind gave me a good lung full of the spray). I got the door locked and it only took me three steps to have a loaded 12 guage in my hands. Had he come back through that door at that point I have no doubt whatsoever in my mind that I would have cut him in half with it.....and not felt one moment of guilt.

In another instance I was lying in bed in a cabin that we had up north. My ex was in the shower and I went in to bed before him. There had been a rash of break ins at the cabin and for all intents and purposes ours looked like no one was there that night as the motorcycle we came in on was tucked away in the shed. As I lay there I watched a figure come up to the window, take out a knife and start cutting a long slice in the screen. I quietly picked up the 12 guage. There is no other sound in the world like the racking of a shotgun. That sound stopped the foot that was now coming through the window cold. I only needed to say "if I miss you with the first barrel I'm pretty sure I'll get you with the second" for that foot to fly out of the window into the night.

Had I not been armed on those occasions....who is to say what may have happened?  I, for one, am glad that I didn't find out. I have also been in confrontations where I have been armed but never needed to reach for that weapon. A little common sense goes a long way....as does a bit of forethought and preparation.



Sinergy -> RE: Weaponry, protecting what's yours (7/14/2006 10:19:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

Had I not been armed on those occasions....who is to say what may have happened?  I, for one, am glad that I didn't find out. I have also been in confrontations where I have been armed but never needed to reach for that weapon. A little common sense goes a long way....as does a bit of forethought and preparation.



Well done, mistoferin, I am glad you were able to defend yourselves and your loved ones.

I love your last sentence.

Sinergy



mistoferin -> RE: Weaponry, protecting what's yours (7/15/2006 4:05:10 AM)

Thank you.

It's possible that much of the way that I react comes from, as I said, my days of fighting....or growing up in the city...or possibly because my chosen line of work had me working closely with the "seedier" side of society (inner city drug addicts). Wherever it came from though, those instincts that I have learned to rely upon serve me well. I don't expect that everyone will have them honed to the same degree....but we all do have them. Our most powerful weapon is our mind. 



Alumbrado -> RE: Weaponry, protecting what's yours (7/15/2006 8:41:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CrappyDom

quote:

People who flaunt their ability with guns, in my opinion, fail to take into effect the dampening of skill under adrenal stress.


The fact that you can't see the flaw in this statement and your outlook means it isn't just the shades that are blinding you.


If you are saying that there is no deleterious effect from adrenalin in crisis situations, then you are labelling just about every modern law enforcement and military trainer 'blind' as well...this is not a random theory, there is a decent body of research on such issues nowadays.




Pulpsmack -> RE: Weaponry, protecting what's yours (7/15/2006 11:14:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy


Regarding the snide comment about my presence of mind and my ability to defeat somebody, I have used my unarmed skills in a life and death situation against one attacker wielding a knife, as well as one that was unarmed (although rather drunk) attacker.  Have you ever used your self-defense or weapon skills in "The Real World" or are your comments strictly theoretical?



I don't know about him but I have used a gun beyond theory and I can tell you first hand your theory is doomed. in certain circumstances knowledge/implementation of hand-to-hand combat might be a better, more effective choice than trying to wrest a gun from the leather and letting fly a few rounds, but there are many more times when the firearm trumps the martial artist any day.

this 4th of july some asshat kids (a little more than a dozen) went on a wilding spree hurling rocks and beer bottles at people before they closed in with bats and beat the hell out of a few. In this case you have to be lucky enough to beat the hell out of at least one (minimum) before the pack brave cowards freak out and run. This assumes you aren't rushed and overtaken by 3 or more of them. With the firearms scenario 2 rounds, hit or miss is going to detonate the "shit the pants factor" with at least half of them then you need only worry about the nearest, the biggest and the loudest in that order. In the armed robbery that I thwarted the shithead was 15-20' away with weapon brandished. It was on a river platform with no escape save a walkway that would require advancement towards him then 90 degree turn 30 yards (where his partner was lying in wait). This was a case in which you likely would be sincerely fucked without a gun if the robber didn't close the distance. My weapon not only scared the piece of shit off, but his partner was nowhere to be found when the shots rang out.

Again I am with crappy on that one... I have perceived from much of your commentary that while you feel firearms training has its place it's well below your "superior adrenaline ass whooping style". If this isn't the case, you certainly come off that way.

Additionally, There is adrenaline style combat training as well. The problem is that ranges usually don't allow for improvisation there so you have to conduct it on private property or find one of those expensice tactical classes (which worth every penny is conducive to learning, not practice).



Pulpsmack -> RE: Weaponry, protecting what's yours (7/15/2006 11:20:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

I quietly picked up the 12 guage. There is no other sound in the world like the racking of a shotgun. That sound stopped the foot that was now coming through the window cold. I only needed to say "if I miss you with the first barrel I'm pretty sure I'll get you with the second" for that foot to fly out of the window into the night.


I hate to call BS on an otherwise well written post but something doesn't add up here... your choice of words, or your story.

Everybody knows that distinctive "click clack" of a 12 gauge being pumped as you have alluded to in your story. (advocates of shotguns for self defense always add that line in their advice: no matter what language you speak, every intruder knows the racking of a 12 gauge pump).

Problem here is you tell the intruder that if you don't get him with the first barrel you'll get him with the next. Sorry, that's BS. There are 2 shot/2 barrel  side-by-side shotguns, there are 2 shot/2 barrel over/under shotguns, but there are no 2 barrel pump shotguns. Care to explain this?



irishbynature -> RE: Weaponry, protecting what's yours (7/15/2006 12:19:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pulpsmack

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Actually you maybe interested to know that it was under Bush the First that the base closures and the recommendations for the closures were first made. This was something that none other than Dick Cheney was involved with... who wudda thunk it? Yes, Dick Cheney was involved with the recommendations to close bases. It was a plan that Clinton implemented from his predecessor, just like NAFTA.

I am not a Clinton lover, he was much too free trade/pro corporations for my taste, and the base closure thing is just one of the many myths surrounding the Clinton years.. he did not think it up, he just followed through because we were living in a post cold war world, and if those bases were needed in the fight on terror then why not reopen them? Because the government really doesn't give a rat's ass about your saftey.


Again, blame congressional deadlock, not the president http://http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/97-305.pdf#search='military%20base%20closures%20clinton' for the closures. Nevertheless, Klinton's program to balance the budget led to substantial cuts in the military that exceeded mere real estate, such as maintenance and repair expenditures, and respectfully, with regards to this topic, it does not interest me to know who closed bases, or who cut what program because it is an irrelevant tangent that threatens to swallow the whole thread. It is worthy of its own posting and should not take away from this topic which is worthy in its own right.


Actually Juliaoceania is CORRECT. The first run of base closures began with the Graham-Redman Act, forcing many in the military to retire early and some w.out benefits. This was began under Reagan, and followed through by both Bush I and  Clinton. The end of the Cold War, etc......many things contributed but it began before Clinton.



Pulpsmack -> RE: Weaponry, protecting what's yours (7/15/2006 1:13:45 PM)

Welcome to last week. Since you are picking through the leftovers you could have at least looked the response and the link I enclosed which demonstrated the closures as a remedial measure after (liberal) congressional deadlock on the issue. More importantly, you would have read that I was referring to more than base closures, but downsizing measures that far exceeded this remedial act as well. I was getting a little nervous here as this thread has remained dangerously on-topic for days now. Thank God you freed us of that burden.

So, do I shout "Clinton sucks!" or does someone else want to take the next slice of tangent pie with a resounding "Bush sucks!" ?? Perhaps we can stir up a bit of banter about the trickle down theory of the 80s with the balanced budget of the 90s this time.



irishbynature -> RE: Weaponry, protecting what's yours (7/15/2006 1:17:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pulpsmack

Welcome to last week. Since you are picking through the leftovers you could have at least looked the response and the link I enclosed which demonstrated the closures as a remedial measure after (liberal) congressional deadlock on the issue. More importantly, you would have read that I was referring to more than base closures, but downsizing measures that far exceeded this remedial act as well. I was getting a little nervous here as this thread has remained dangerously on-topic for days now. Thank God you freed us of that burden.

So, do I shout "Clinton sucks!" or does someone else want to take the next slice of tangent pie with a resounding "Bush sucks!" ?? Perhaps we can stir up a bit of banter about the trickle down theory of the 80s with the balanced budget of the 90s this time.


I think in your own way, you finally GET it. Julia is neither Dem/Rep and rant on and on about it is waste of her valuable, lovely, blond-tall-gorgeous California body and brain. 2 cents on "leftovers"...they are better heated and reheated anyway.



Pulpsmack -> RE: Weaponry, protecting what's yours (7/15/2006 1:37:42 PM)

Ahh, a waste of hers, but not a waste of yours. Well, it is a waste of my bald, short, "varies by one's perspective", California-hating body and brain. So make it 4 cents on leftovers, you can have mine as well.

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