RE: TICK-TOCK to the AHA as we know it... White House changes its mind but... (Full Version)

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lovmuffin -> RE: TICK-TOCK to the AHA as we know it... White House changes its mind but... (11/14/2013 9:05:48 PM)

You win Ken. The ACA is a kewl idea and the train wreck is the ebil republicans fault. We're all going to live happily ever after.




DomKen -> RE: TICK-TOCK to the AHA as we know it... White House changes its mind but... (11/14/2013 9:37:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

FR

How many people have died as a direct result of the ACA debacle and insurance cancellations?



0. Many lives have been saved already however.


Yeah right, and the Easter Bunny is coming to my house on April 20th to shit colorful hard boiled eggs ?

Then you have contrary evidence? Since no one has lost insurance or had any other negative effect yet how precisely could the ACA have cost anyone their life? The fact is the high risk groups have definitely saved lives. Children being covered on their parents insurance till 26 has definitely saved lives.


I'm disputing your claim so you show me the lives Obama care has saved.

So you're asserting that no one in the high risk pools, that is people with conditions no insurance would cover, did not die due to having insurance the last 2 years? Are you really so blinded by partisanship that you deny that getting those people, uniformly ill, coverage did not save a single life?




lovmuffin -> RE: TICK-TOCK to the AHA as we know it... White House changes its mind but... (11/14/2013 10:24:26 PM)

You say that you've had health problems recently. Where did you get your coverage ? I have an ill family member who is covered by Medicare. What Medicare doesn't pick up, Medicaid takes over. His medications alone cost over $1,400 a month. He's 39.

There were better options to bring health care cost down and help those who can't help themselves. Fuckin up every one else isn't it. I just don't know how to address your postings above. If you really think Obama wasn't lying about keeping your plan, you're either delusional or in denial.

http://www.powerlineblog.com/?s=lies+of+obamacare&x=0&y=0




Phydeaux -> RE: TICK-TOCK to the AHA as we know it... White House changes its mind but... (11/14/2013 11:07:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

FR

How many people have died as a direct result of the ACA debacle and insurance cancellations?



0. Many lives have been saved already however.


You don't know that. Pure spin.




Phydeaux -> RE: TICK-TOCK to the AHA as we know it... White House changes its mind but... (11/14/2013 11:12:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

In the real world the President can certainly order a fix to a regulation issued by the executive branch. However it won't change a thing. The insurance companies are not going to re-issue those canceled policies.


So Obama is telling more lies on top of his lies.

no, he's not lying.. you know whats going on here now.. [;)] he's passing the buck & potential blame onto the insurance corps.. now its their decision to keep the old plans or not.. now he has actually kept his promise (well.. for now).. but I agree with DomKen- those insurance corps aren't likely to change back again now.. so its too little too late, imo..

"announced changes under his health care law to give insurance companies the option to keep offering consumers plans that would otherwise be canceled."


Not even remotely physically possible.

As I alluded to months ago when I started predicting this train wreck. Do you know how long it takes to put together a provider network? To provide a formulary. To run estimates on costs. To get clients? To program the computers to make it avalable for their agents?

And even here, the insurance companies don't know how many people will stay with their policies - will they be sicker, healthier?

So he can blame the industry - just like democrats always do. And he can kill the industry - and its just democrats shooting themselves and america in the foot .. again.

Millions of americans think a product is good. They freely choose it. And yet Obama - and the democrats know better.




Causes a huge amount of risk.




Phydeaux -> RE: TICK-TOCK to the AHA as we know it... White House changes its mind but... (11/14/2013 11:16:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: KYsissy

It is almost as if it was designed so there would be no grandfathered plans. "If you dig into the regulations (go to page 34560), you will see that HHS wrote them extremely tight. One provision says that if co-payment increases by more than $5, plus medical cost of inflation, then the plan can no longer be grandfathered. "

http://m.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/wp/2013/10/30/obamas-pledge-that-no-one-will-take-away-your-health-plan/

There is a note that corrects the figure but it is a miniscule correction.

Policies change every year. To set a three year timeline in something like copays NOT to change, seems as if it was designed to get rid of all current plans.


Why should any plan increase a copay by more than the medical inflation rate? Are you saying the insurance companies are so incompetent they can't read actuarial tables?



Why should you dictate what a company can and cannot offer.

But to answer the stupid question asked: Because you are trying to craft a product your consumers want.
You are trying to offer differentiated products that attract people.

So for example, suppose people wanted access to Mt. Sinai. It costs you more money. But you add them as a provider and then increase the co-pay by $5. Its neither nefarious nor hard to understand.

Except to dimocrats.




Phydeaux -> RE: TICK-TOCK to the AHA as we know it... White House changes its mind but... (11/14/2013 11:19:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

I would have liked to see Obama saying something like this to the insurance companies, immediately:

Simultaneous and identical actions of United States Steel and other leading steal corporations increasing steel prices by some $6 a ton constitute a wholly unjustifiable and irresponsible defiance of the public interest. In this serious hour in our Nation's history when we are confronted with grave crises in Berlin and Southeast Asia, when we are devoting our energies to economic recovery and stability, when we are asking reservists to leave their homes and their families for months on end and servicemen to risk their lives--and four were killed in the last two days in Viet Nam and asking union members to hold down their wage requests at a time when restraint and sacrifice are being asked of every citizen, the American people will find it hard, as I do, to accept a situation in which a tiny handful of steel executives whose pursuit of private power and profit exceeds their sense of public responsibility can show such utter contempt for the interests of 185 million Americans.
If this rise in the cost of steel is imitated by the rest of the industry, instead of rescinded, it would increase the cost of homes, autos, appliances, and most other items for every American family. It would increase the cost of machinery and tools to every American businessman and farmer. It would seriously handicap our efforts to prevent an inflationary spiral from eating up the pensions of our older citizens, and our new gains in purchasing power.
It would add, Secretary McNamara informed me this morning, an estimated $1 billion to the cost of our defences, at a time when every dollar is needed for national security and other purposes. It would make it more difficult for American goods to compete in foreign markets, more difficult to withstand competition from foreign imports, and thus more difficult to improve our balance of payments position, and stem the flow of gold. And it is necessary to stem it for our national security, if we're going to pay for our security committments abroad. And it would surely handicap our efforts to induce other industries and unions to adopt reasonable price and wage policies.
The facts of the matter are that there is no justification for an increase in steel prices. The recent settlement between the industry and the union, which doesn not even take place until July 1st, was widely acknowledged to be noninflationary, and the whole purpose and effect of this Administration's role, which both parties understood, was to achieve an agreement which would make unnecessary any increase in prices. Steel output per man is rising so fast that labor costs per ton of steel can actually be expected to decline in the next 12 months. And in fact, the acting Commissioner of the Bureau of Labor Statistics informed me this morning that, and I quote, "employment costs per unit of steel output in 1961 were essentially the same as they were in 1958."
The cost of the major raw materials, steel scrap and coal, has also been declining, and for an industry which has generally been operating at less than two-thirds of capacity, its profit rate has been normal and can be expected to rise sharply this year in view of the reduction in idle capacity. Their lot has been easier than that of one hundred thousand steel workers thrown out of work in the last 3 years. The industry's cash dividends have exceeded $600 million in each of the last 5 years, and earnings in the first quarter of this year were estimated in the February 28th Wall Street Journal to be among the highest in history.
In short, at a time when they could be exploring how more efficiency and better prices could be obtained, reducing prices in this industry in recognition of lower costs, their unusually good labor contract, their foreign competition and their increase in production and profits which are coming this year, a few gigantic corporations have decided to increase prices in ruthless disregard of their public responsibilities.
The Steelworkers Union can be proud that it abided by its responsibilities in this agreement, and this Government also has responsibilities which we intend to meet. The Department of Justice and the Federal Trade Commission are examining the significance of this action in a free, competetive economy. The Department of Defence and other agencies are reviewing its impact on their policies of procurement. And I am informed that steps are under way by those members of the Congress who plan appropriate inquiries into how these price decisions are so quickly made and reached and what legislative safeguards may be needed to protect the public interest.
Price and wage decisions in this country, except for a very limited restriction in the case of monopolies and national emergency strikes, are and ought to be freely and privately made. But the American people have a right to expect, in return for that freedom, a higher sense of business responsibility for the welfare of their country than has been shown in the last 2 days.
Some time ago I asked each American to consider what he would do for his country and I asked the steel companies. In the last 24 hours we had their answer.




You wrote that fast [;)]


Yeah? tell me how the american steel industry fared under the care of the dimocrats?




Phydeaux -> RE: TICK-TOCK to the AHA as we know it... White House changes its mind but... (11/14/2013 11:22:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
He is just making a very good point. It is the insurance companies that refused to bring policies into compliance with the law or made changes outside the grandfathering provisions. The government did not.

how could they possibly stay the same? if the requirement for compliance is to expand coverage & include stuff that wasn't previously included, then the cost to policyholders would have to change also.. imo.. (not that I am feeling sympathy for the insurance corps cuz they should have been totally kicked to the curb in the first place, imo)..

There were provisions for grandfathered policies. The insurance companies chose to cancel policies rather than stay within the guidelines.


This is complete and utter bull shit.

The *better* coverage, the better provider networks, the *better* doctors in the old plans could not compete with the compliant crap offered by the ACA.





Phydeaux -> RE: TICK-TOCK to the AHA as we know it... White House changes its mind but... (11/14/2013 11:25:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KYsissy

It is almost as if it was designed so there would be no grandfathered plans. "If you dig into the regulations (go to page 34560), you will see that HHS wrote them extremely tight. One provision says that if co-payment increases by more than $5, plus medical cost of inflation, then the plan can no longer be grandfathered. "

http://m.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/wp/2013/10/30/obamas-pledge-that-no-one-will-take-away-your-health-plan/

There is a note that corrects the figure but it is a miniscule correction.

Policies change every year. To set a three year timeline in something like copays NOT to change, seems as if it was designed to get rid of all current plans.[


Being incompetent they fucked it up.. but where's the surprise in that.

Its like a government organization that has never made a website deciding they are going to create the web portal for the most significant legislation in the last 20 years. They have no experience doing it - they have a ridiculous timeline.. but hey.
Its business. How hard can it be.


Internal memos from the administration show they needed 40-60% of the plans to be cancelled to move people into obamacare. The regulations were written to achieve that.

Google "internal memos ACA"




DaddySatyr -> RE: TICK-TOCK to the AHA as we know it... White House changes its mind but... (11/14/2013 11:25:57 PM)

As soon as the government started making noise about the pre-existing conditions change, the insurance companies knew they were going to be cancelling policies/changing rates.

As with so many other parts of this piece of shit legislation, the government acquiesced to the insurance companies and constructed it so that no policies would be "grandfathered" after about three years (sound familiar?).

The trouble, now is that the insurance companies have spent three years re-structuring and and re-organizing that even if they wanted to, they could not bring back those cancelled policies for just one year. It would be disasterous.

What's astounding to me is that rational, reasonably intelligent people can't see this.

The best thing the repubs can do is stay away from "fixing" this law. I would rather they try to repeal it (yet again) and pray for success than to let this piece of shit run it's course and drag this country even further down the rabbit hole.







Phydeaux -> RE: TICK-TOCK to the AHA as we know it... White House changes its mind but... (11/14/2013 11:32:42 PM)


quote:


So you're asserting that no one in the high risk pools, that is people with conditions no insurance would cover, did not die due to having insurance the last 2 years? Are you really so blinded by partisanship that you deny that getting those people, uniformly ill, coverage did not save a single life?


Are you asserting that millions of more people won't have medical issues after they lose their doctors, and hospitals after being forced into the ACA?






tj444 -> RE: TICK-TOCK to the AHA as we know it... White House changes its mind but... (11/14/2013 11:47:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

In the real world the President can certainly order a fix to a regulation issued by the executive branch. However it won't change a thing. The insurance companies are not going to re-issue those canceled policies.


So Obama is telling more lies on top of his lies.

no, he's not lying.. you know whats going on here now.. [;)] he's passing the buck & potential blame onto the insurance corps.. now its their decision to keep the old plans or not.. now he has actually kept his promise (well.. for now).. but I agree with DomKen- those insurance corps aren't likely to change back again now.. so its too little too late, imo..

"announced changes under his health care law to give insurance companies the option to keep offering consumers plans that would otherwise be canceled."


Not even remotely physically possible.

As I alluded to months ago when I started predicting this train wreck. Do you know how long it takes to put together a provider network? To provide a formulary. To run estimates on costs. To get clients? To program the computers to make it avalable for their agents?

And even here, the insurance companies don't know how many people will stay with their policies - will they be sicker, healthier?

So he can blame the industry - just like democrats always do. And he can kill the industry - and its just democrats shooting themselves and america in the foot .. again.

Millions of americans think a product is good. They freely choose it. And yet Obama - and the democrats know better.

Causes a huge amount of risk.

well,.. I knew it was gonna be a train wreck ages ago, back when I found out that insurance corps were going to continue to be part of the system.. I come from a country that has single payer and while our system isn't perfect, it is affordable and fairly efficient and there are no deductibles.. Insurance corps there can only sell coverage that the system doesn't include, which isn't that much so not much of a medical insurance market there.. I think that system is good for my country so I am pro national health care.. When I look at this mess called obamacare, I do not understand why any Americans want this dogs breakfast.. falling back on the line of "its better than nothing" isn't good enough imo.. to me its not better than nothing.. but then I am not an American and don't have to live with it like ya'll do.. All I can do is cringe, shake my head and wish Americans good luck!




Politesub53 -> RE: TICK-TOCK to the AHA as we know it... White House changes its mind but... (11/14/2013 11:53:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Less than died in Iraq?  Was I close?  Good answer, or what?


Not only close old bean, but shit hot. [;)]




DomKen -> RE: TICK-TOCK to the AHA as we know it... White House changes its mind but... (11/15/2013 1:57:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

You say that you've had health problems recently. Where did you get your coverage ? I have an ill family member who is covered by Medicare. What Medicare doesn't pick up, Medicaid takes over. His medications alone cost over $1,400 a month. He's 39.

There were better options to bring health care cost down and help those who can't help themselves. Fuckin up every one else isn't it. I just don't know how to address your postings above. If you really think Obama wasn't lying about keeping your plan, you're either delusional or in denial.

http://www.powerlineblog.com/?s=lies+of+obamacare&x=0&y=0

I have one of the illnesses covered by Medicare. People with diabetes are not so "lucky." Neither are people with Lupus and any number of other life threatening chronic conditions.

The President may have lied, there were a lot of the junk policies out there that would never qualify for grandfather status, but the fact is those people didn't really have insurance that covered anything. Everyone else that got canceled got canceled due to the insurance companies refusing to comply with the law. That is not an issue the President could control.




DomKen -> RE: TICK-TOCK to the AHA as we know it... White House changes its mind but... (11/15/2013 1:59:49 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

FR

How many people have died as a direct result of the ACA debacle and insurance cancellations?



0. Many lives have been saved already however.


You don't know that. Pure spin.

Actually I do. No one has lost insurance yet so there can be no possible claim that the ACA has resulted in any deaths, there won't be after Jan. 1 either since no one will be left uninsured except people who refuse to use the exchanges. Many people with severe chronic conditions have had insurance the last 2 years due to the ACA's high risk pools. Some of those people certainly lived due to having that coverage.




DomKen -> RE: TICK-TOCK to the AHA as we know it... White House changes its mind but... (11/15/2013 2:03:14 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: KYsissy

It is almost as if it was designed so there would be no grandfathered plans. "If you dig into the regulations (go to page 34560), you will see that HHS wrote them extremely tight. One provision says that if co-payment increases by more than $5, plus medical cost of inflation, then the plan can no longer be grandfathered. "

http://m.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/wp/2013/10/30/obamas-pledge-that-no-one-will-take-away-your-health-plan/

There is a note that corrects the figure but it is a miniscule correction.

Policies change every year. To set a three year timeline in something like copays NOT to change, seems as if it was designed to get rid of all current plans.


Why should any plan increase a copay by more than the medical inflation rate? Are you saying the insurance companies are so incompetent they can't read actuarial tables?



Why should you dictate what a company can and cannot offer.

But to answer the stupid question asked: Because you are trying to craft a product your consumers want.
You are trying to offer differentiated products that attract people.

So for example, suppose people wanted access to Mt. Sinai. It costs you more money. But you add them as a provider and then increase the co-pay by $5. Its neither nefarious nor hard to understand.

Except to dimocrats.

Bullshit. The claim is that people had plans they liked and that a copay of more than $5 plus the medical inflation rate, which violates the grandfather status regulation, is somehow reasonable for a plan that otherwise did not change, because if it was so good that people wanted to keep it it certainly did not need such a major change. Just another attempt to lie about the ACA.




DomKen -> RE: TICK-TOCK to the AHA as we know it... White House changes its mind but... (11/15/2013 2:05:06 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
He is just making a very good point. It is the insurance companies that refused to bring policies into compliance with the law or made changes outside the grandfathering provisions. The government did not.

how could they possibly stay the same? if the requirement for compliance is to expand coverage & include stuff that wasn't previously included, then the cost to policyholders would have to change also.. imo.. (not that I am feeling sympathy for the insurance corps cuz they should have been totally kicked to the curb in the first place, imo)..

There were provisions for grandfathered policies. The insurance companies chose to cancel policies rather than stay within the guidelines.


This is complete and utter bull shit.

The *better* coverage, the better provider networks, the *better* doctors in the old plans could not compete with the compliant crap offered by the ACA.

Bullshit. The plans that could not be grandfathered were junk plans that offered almost no coverage. All other plans that were canceled are entirely due to a choice made by the insurance company.




DomKen -> RE: TICK-TOCK to the AHA as we know it... White House changes its mind but... (11/15/2013 2:07:53 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


quote:


So you're asserting that no one in the high risk pools, that is people with conditions no insurance would cover, did not die due to having insurance the last 2 years? Are you really so blinded by partisanship that you deny that getting those people, uniformly ill, coverage did not save a single life?


Are you asserting that millions of more people won't have medical issues after they lose their doctors, and hospitals after being forced into the ACA?

The question was how many people had died due to the ACA. Not speculation, total bullshit speculation, on how many might have problem next year.




Lucylastic -> RE: TICK-TOCK to the AHA as we know it... White House changes its mind but... (11/15/2013 2:14:13 AM)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/05/i-am-obamacare-_n_4046470.html
https://www.facebook.com/ObamacareSavedMyLife
http://www.upworthy.com/obamacare-has-already-saved-millions-of-people-and-billions-of-dollars
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/10/skin-cancer-obamacare-ted-cruz
http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-10-09/opinions/42862562_1_brain-tumor-mason-insurance-exchange

Cant back your shit up but you expect others to????
I know you gonna dismiss them all... but it doesnt matter, because all the salivators and fappers crawling out with socks have an abundance of ignorance and not much else.




popeye1250 -> RE: TICK-TOCK to the AHA as we know it... White House changes its mind but... (11/15/2013 2:55:38 AM)

"I'm from the government and I'm here to help."




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