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RE: What is the solution? - 11/15/2013 4:34:04 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		If y'all are concerned about 'handouts', why are you giving tax breaks to corporations which have enough money to pay executive bonuses greater than a million dollars?

If they have a million dollars sitting around, shouldn't they be paying EVERY TAX applicable first before giving out big bonuses to executives?

Didn't Cobb County just give out millions to get the "Atlanta" braves to move or something? I guess Turner Field is structurally unsound or something...

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to joether)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: What is the solution? - 11/15/2013 6:04:53 AM   
BenevolentM


Posts: 3394
Joined: 11/15/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

Seriously, what depth of the conservative abyss does this crap come from?

A bureaucracy if anything must abide by a set of rules.


Rules are the problem. Rules lack intelligence. Is there an inherent reason for us to be as in love with rules as we are? Heavy weight liberalism offers a solution, get rid of the rules, everyone is covered. Using no one is covered as your starting point creates a great deal of needless complexity; it is not efficient. As such there is a trade off. It would be expensive, yet efficient at once. If you get your money's worth, do you have anything to object to in truth?

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

Actually most humans are mere animals in nature. A small percentage actually give a shit about their fellow man.


What makes humans human can be like the weak forced compared to the strong force. Though it is not the strong force, it nonetheless exists and is central to what it means to be human. Medicine is not the creation of monkeys. What would we achieve by denying who we are?

(in reply to joether)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: What is the solution? - 11/15/2013 6:15:17 AM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:


You can do it, generally, because the marketplace operates on the maxim that states people deal honorably with each other.


So, you're saying without the historical regulation of insurance companies they would act in Good Faith?




No. It's because regulation becomes necessary where legalized fraud becomes the norm. By legalized fraud I mean "protection," or put another way, a racket. A legalized racket is regulated. It really is no different from the Mafia which regulates itself and its activities as to maintain 1) its power and 2) its income stream with as little disruption as possible. As long as the rules are obeyed one won't have a problem. Many see that as "dealing honorably." But I ask you, is it?

For example, take Las Vegas. The odds favor the house. The "contract" favors one side over the other. The only game I am aware of, the contract one abides by if sitting at the table, that even approaches an equality to each side is Black Jack. I've been to Vegas a few times and it's the only game I'll play.

There's the proof that regulation is needed. If you don't strictly regulate these Artificial Legal Entities, they *always* try to 'game the system' and expliot the consumer.

I do not disagree here, but neither do I see regulation as the absolute answer. If the consumer, if you or I, had full protections within the Statute of Frauds these Corporations, these protected Corporations, would/could be held accountable. Tangentially, government exploits the consumer for its own ends too.

Like you and I, making contract. Provided either one of us is not protected, we are vulnerable to each other. That is how it should be. Banks, for instance, are so well protected and look what they are doing. Look who benefits from their power, from their largess. Why all the lobbying? Do you not see fraud there? Look at the mortgage problems, MERS, MBS, etc. That one is in our faces. So many highly regulated Corporations are only truly vulnerable to that which regulates them. They are not vulnerable to us.

As MN says, and in reality I totally agree -

If anything general can be said, the liberalism side will decry 'corporate' corruptions, and conservatism will decry 'person' corruptions. Whether or not pragmatically, they actually will do anything concrete is another subject.

Both; in their own ways, will certainly 'get along' with it.

What is government really really good at? Making regulations. What is government really really bad at? Making regulations. Who's in bed with what is regulated? Government. The fox owns the chicken house. Whic is the fox is debatable.

There are different mindsets at work though. On the one hand are those who think the beast can be controlled, regulated. On the other are those who think such belief is illusion. Now, if I agree with MN, and I do where he says, "Both; in their own ways, will certainly 'get along' with it," I must conclude that such is not really in my best interests as such collusion always favors the house.

I really must also conclude that true liberalism, and true conservatism, do not exist anymore for if they did, MN's statement would be rewritten as -

If anything general can be said, the liberalism side will punish 'corporate' corruptions, and conservatism will punish 'person' corruptions.

Both; in their own ways, will certainly 'NOT get along' with it.

But, sadly, that is not the case.



< Message edited by Yachtie -- 11/15/2013 6:26:39 AM >

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: What is the solution? - 11/15/2013 7:01:09 AM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline 		FR

Applying my above, and as to Obamacare, there is a problem.

Even as far as going back to what Hillery said way back when, Obama said to the American people, if you like your insurance, you can keep it. Period. This is construable as to terms within the ACA; Obama acting officially within his Office, stating contractual terms. Now, there arises another problem. That being the written contract supersedes the oral. In the case of the ACA there is, facially, a real error. It had to be passed to see what was in it. Contractually, it does not meet muster... full disclosure. Obama misspoke, officially, yet to Obamacare, stating the terms.

There is a conflict which has come back to bite Obama in the butt. I believe Bill Clinton understands this which is why he counseled Obama to find a solution. Will Obamacare survive? Who knows? But I see it as government showing its true colors, being its incompetent self. Regulating what it really is not competent to regulate at all, what some say is 1/5th the Economy.

< Message edited by Yachtie -- 11/15/2013 7:09:04 AM >

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: What is the solution? - 11/15/2013 7:21:34 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

if you like your insurance, you can keep it. Period.


And the most recent announcement does, indeed grant an insurer the option of FULLY DISCLOSING THE LEGAL DEFICIENCIES IN THEIR POLICY OFFERING, AND YOUR OTHER INSURANCE OPTIONS, and reinstating any cancellations.

So, what's your complaint NOW that Obama's made good on his promise?

Do you have any issue with making Insurers disclose the deficiencies in their offerings?

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: What is the solution? - 11/15/2013 7:50:47 AM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

if you like your insurance, you can keep it. Period.


And the most recent announcement does, indeed grant an insurer the option of FULLY DISCLOSING THE LEGAL DEFICIENCIES IN THEIR POLICY OFFERING, AND YOUR OTHER INSURANCE OPTIONS, and reinstating any cancellations.

So, what's your complaint NOW that Obama's made good on his promise?

Do you have any issue with making Insurers disclose the deficiencies in their offerings?



Insurers have always had to make full disclosure. But that is NOT the issue here.

What we have is insurance pre-Obamacare butting heads with Obamacare. Obama's statement as to keeping one's insurance if one likes it points to policies pre-Obamacare. That's obvious. It's not about disclosure of what is NOW, due to Obamacare, legal deficiencies. Insurance companies could care less about stating such deficiencies per Obamacare; your policy does not [fill in blank here]. So what?

It's about truly being GRANDFATHERED. It is about being able to keep it. (It's about contractual obligations and the inability of a 3rd party, that being Government in this case, to arbitrarily insert itself and change the conditions.)

I can care less whether Insurers disclose pre-obamacare policy deficiencies under Obamacare. Who gives a fuck? Really. Why would an elderly couple care if their grandfathered policy does not, for instance, include Obamacare mandated prenatal care or not?

Obamacare supporters, evidently, believe they should care, or stated another way, should meet the mandate of its inclusion. How does anyone dance around that?





_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: What is the solution? - 11/15/2013 7:59:57 AM   
RacerJim


Posts: 1583
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

if you like your insurance, you can keep it. Period.


And the most recent announcement does, indeed grant an insurer the option of FULLY DISCLOSING THE LEGAL DEFICIENCIES IN THEIR POLICY OFFERING, AND YOUR OTHER INSURANCE OPTIONS, and reinstating any cancellations.

So, what's your complaint NOW that Obama's made good on his promise?

Do you have any issue with making Insurers disclose the deficiencies in their offerings?



Insurers have always had to make full disclosure. But that is NOT the issue here.

What we have is insurance pre-Obamacare butting heads with Obamacare. Obama's statement as to keeping one's insurance if one likes it points to policies pre-Obamacare. That's obvious. It's not about disclosure of what is NOW, due to Obamacare, legal deficiencies. Insurance companies could care less about stating such deficiencies per Obamacare; your policy does not [fill in blank here]. So what?

It's about truly being GRANDFATHERED. It is about being able to keep it. (It's about contractual obligations and the inability of a 3rd party, that being Government in this case, to arbitrarily insert itself and change the conditions.)

I can care less whether Insurers disclose pre-obamacare policy deficiencies under Obamacare. Who gives a fuck? Really. Why would an elderly couple care if their grandfathered policy does not, for instance, include Obamacare mandated prenatal care or not?

Obamacare supporters, evidently, believe they should care, or stated another way, should meet the mandate of its inclusion. How does anyone dance around that?





Obamacare supporters obviously believe Obama has the authority to change the law at his whim or, stated another way, isn't bound by the U.S. Constitution.

(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: What is the solution? - 11/15/2013 8:02:02 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		how is he changing the law at his whim?  how is he not following the constitution?

Or are nutsackers still blowing their headpipes?

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to RacerJim)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: What is the solution? - 11/15/2013 8:05:03 AM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RacerJim
Obamacare supporters obviously believe Obama has the authority to change the law at his whim or, stated another way, isn't bound by the U.S. Constitution.


That is becoming more and more true these days, but for now even Obama has a few constraints on him. Who follows Obama will, in time, have even less. It's ultimately not about Obama and the ACA supporters are for the social system. Obama just happens to be the one at the moment. I'm not so sure he's really happy about that either.

I would not say Obama, or even Bush before him, changes the law but operates outside of it.

< Message edited by Yachtie -- 11/15/2013 8:06:12 AM >

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to RacerJim)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: What is the solution? - 11/15/2013 8:43:33 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		If that's true, then wouldn't you be suggesting that the house is in conspiracy with him by not impeaching him?

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: What is the solution? - 11/15/2013 8:49:30 AM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

If that's true, then wouldn't you be suggesting that the house is in conspiracy with him by not impeaching him?



LMAO. Since when have politicians, even judges, upheld their oaths of office?

The way DC operates, even Hollywood could not write such stuff. Truth is stranger than fiction.

< Message edited by Yachtie -- 11/15/2013 8:50:14 AM >

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: What is the solution? - 11/15/2013 8:52:18 AM   
tj444


Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM
ObamaCare is like mandatory auto insurance, but some how isn't.

I know a 95 year old lady who with her hubby previously owned an insurance agency and she told me when mandatory auto insurance became law (the minimum coverage is as good as nothing for a serious accident), it was a windfall for them & all insurance corps & agents.. so I see the involvement of insurance corps in Obamacare to be the same sorta windfall.. they & govt are "shearing the sheep".. and the financial "advisors" riding the wave too, they are busy telling investors which corps will profit from Obamacare... (happy days are here again.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqsT4xnKZPg

_____________________________

As Anderson Cooper said “If he (Trump) took a dump on his desk, you would defend it”

(in reply to BenevolentM)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: What is the solution? - 11/15/2013 8:54:05 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		That is the answer to corporations, all the time, shear the sheep, skin the wallet.  We need to clean that shit up.  Bust them up.  Be done with them.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to tj444)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: What is the solution? - 11/15/2013 9:07:23 AM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

That is the answer to corporations, all the time, shear the sheep, skin the wallet.  We need to clean that shit up.  Bust them up.  Be done with them.



Fine. I agree and that is one answer. Though I'd say getting rid of them is not absolutely necessary, but taking away all protections from fraud and collusion and making the Corp and ALL assets liable for misfeasance / injurious activity would put a stop to most of it. There's always those bad eggs. Them you sue into the ground.

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: What is the solution? - 11/15/2013 9:38:02 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

This is so outside mainstream thought I have no idea where to go.
Conservatives believe in small government
Small business.
Maximum liberty for people. This means freedom to succeed - and freedom to fail on your own merits.

Help those that need a hand up not a handout.

Platitudes. Historically, it has meant the freedom to abuse others and profit from their misery. And it has lead to the rise of monopolies. Despite the recent economic debacle the government still remains incapable to reign in the greed of large banks and other corporations.

(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: What is the solution? - 11/15/2013 10:58:56 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
If the President (and Democrats) knew then what they know now, I do believe they would have run with a much different perspective on healthcare.


What do they know now that they didn't know then, Joether?


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to joether)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: What is the solution? - 11/15/2013 11:02:08 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		That they should have went straight to singlepayer national healthcare, cuz the corporations and corporate guilds would fuck them at every step.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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Profile   Post #: 37
RE: What is the solution? - 11/15/2013 11:04:03 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
Maximum liberty for people. This means freedom to succeed - and freedom to fail on your own merits.

If this was true, than why is the Tea Party STILL part of the Republican Party? Shouldn't they trek out on their own and not be the little bitches of the Grand Old Party?
Having complete freedom without restraint or rule, leads to anarchy in every case. Stating that maximum freedom is tied directly into success, implies changing the form of government from a 'Democratic Republic' to a 'Meritocracy'. Which generally turns into a 'Socialism', 'Dictatorship' or 'Authoritarian', or 'Totalitarian' after a while. Yeah, not what you thought, right? That's what happens when you don't think the whole plan out to its logical conclusion when you calculated how mankind treats itself.


1. The Tea Party is/was trying to change the GOP. What's the point of changing the "X" Party ("X" not being "Democrat" or "Republican") when there will be zero impact? Change the GOP (which was closer to the Tea Party beliefs than the Democrats) and you automatically can have an impact.

2. No one said anything about there not being any rules. Strawman.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to joether)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: What is the solution? - 11/15/2013 11:07:48 AM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
If the President (and Democrats) knew then what they know now, I do believe they would have run with a much different perspective on healthcare.


What do they know now that they didn't know then, Joether?


That the other party are a bunch of obstructionist fuckwits with the Koch brothers' hands up their arses and there's no point trying to negotiate with them, at a guess.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: What is the solution? - 11/15/2013 11:28:10 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		"I'm from the government and I'm here to help."

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 40
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