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RE: What is the solution? - 11/20/2013 12:55:41 AM   
farglebargle


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quote:

I am not saying taking profit out of health care


Why not? Is it MORAL to profit from other people's pain, suffering, and misery?

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RE: What is the solution? - 11/20/2013 1:40:52 AM   
MariaB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

I think the only realistic solutions is nationalization.


Now you've done it. You've gone and mentioned nationalisation, which is just a euphemism for communism. Tut, woeful tut.

There's bugger all sense of social democracy in the USA, nor modern liberalism (and the idea of positive freedoms as opposed to negative freedoms) nor even, from what I can make out, much more than a minimal sense of enlightened self interest. There's capitalism, and there's communism, and that's it.



I know many Americans believe the British don’t have a right to speak for themselves, that we are controlled from every angle through nationalization. It would be funny if it wasn’t so tragic. Its tragic because if a system can convince the very people who are being victimized by the system to support that system then all but the rich are fucked. When people don't want to change a system that's failing, when people don't want to hear about the sick people being abandoned or people losing their family homes over medical bills because of the 'Im all right Jack' attitude, then its beyond help.

American propaganda wears a very dark cloak and it all comes under the heading, ‘The American Dream’.

Tj, I was kidding about Cuba, it was tongue in cheek...... What happened to America?




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RE: What is the solution? - 11/20/2013 5:04:52 AM   
Phydeaux


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quote:



Why not? Is it MORAL to profit from other people's pain, suffering, and misery?


quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

I am not saying taking profit out of health care


Why not? Is it MORAL to profit from other people's pain, suffering, and misery?


Yes.

Just as moral as it is to profit from their desire for food.
Or their desire for entertainment.
Or ipods.

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RE: What is the solution? - 11/20/2013 5:10:02 AM   
DarkSteven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

I am not saying taking profit out of health care


Why not? Is it MORAL to profit from other people's pain, suffering, and misery?


Yes. Yes, it is.

Our society is founded upon organizations, both for profit and nonprofit, meeting needs. If those needs are so pronounced as to cause pain, suffering, and misery, then the need to alleviate them is critical.

We pay for our food. We pay for our shelter. We pay for our utilities. We pay for medical care.



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RE: What is the solution? - 11/20/2013 5:13:21 AM   
Phydeaux


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quote:

ORIGINAL: leonine


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


Once again I suggest - if you want the solution it helps to define the problem.

First, I don't think there's A problem. I think there are several problems.
The solution you get depends on the question you ask - so what do you think the problem is?

The problem is the insurance system. That's why Obamacare is not the solution, because it works along with the problem. It's not a national health service, which the public are crying out for but the insurance lobby will never allow, it's just an attempt to make the existing system less murderous.

The insurance system is a dead weight on US business which makes every firm that employs people less competitive than their counterparts in countries with civilised healthcare. That's why US firms outsource even high level jobs when they can. State health systems cost both workers and employers less in taxes than they pay in the US for a poorer service. But that's OK with right wing ideologues, because being robbed blind by the private sector is better than paying tax.

My son and his wife have well paid jobs in New York with a good health plan, but they have a chronically ill child, and they're having to consider whether they'll have to come home to the UK just to get him properly looked after without bankrupting themselves. I wonder how many other productive tax paying citizens the US loses as healthcare refugees?



Well, I do agree with one or two things here. Subsidized healthcare is an unfair trade advantage that should be equalized in WTO discussions.

Insurance is not the primary cause of outsourcing: wages are. Benefits packages in the us average 22% of salary.

Right wing ideologues are not in favor of being robbed blind. Fundamentally, there is nothing 'magic' in government. Government health plans pool individuals and then ration (dole out) care.

So there is nothing unique about the fact that it is "government" - the same function could be done by industry.
With me so far?

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RE: What is the solution? - 11/20/2013 5:14:36 AM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		But there is nothing magic about industry either. 

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RE: What is the solution? - 11/20/2013 5:18:03 AM   
farglebargle


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quote:

So there is nothing unique about the fact that it is "government" - the same function could be done by industry.


Well, I see a big difference. No-one EXPECTS the government to turn a profit. In fact, isn't that a good reason to have a government? To do the things which can't profitably be done?

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RE: What is the solution? - 11/20/2013 5:55:43 AM   
Phydeaux


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

So there is nothing unique about the fact that it is "government" - the same function could be done by industry.


Well, I see a big difference. No-one EXPECTS the government to turn a profit. In fact, isn't that a good reason to have a government? To do the things which can't profitably be done?


No.

Government serves one function, and one function only, really. A way of reconciling interests. Individula interests, state interests, corporate interes, domestic, international.

Returning to the concept of healthcare. Certainly, there is a lot that the federal govt could do to make the situation better.
They could

a). Mandate competition across state lines.
b). Establish tort reform
c). Require drs & etc to publish rates and malpractice.
d). Assist in providing care to the indigent.
e). Provide standards of care, and voluntary standards for insurance plans.


These things have substantial agreement on all parties - and there wouldn't be acrimony about these. But this whole debate hasn't been about making insurance better for the democrats - its been reaching the shangrila of another big govt solution.
Which is why rather going for consensus they ramrodded the ACA down our throats.

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RE: What is the solution? - 11/20/2013 5:57:58 AM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		You gotta be shitting me.  What is the shangrila of the nutsackers?  None of those things in concert, nothing at all, coming in the way of debate from the nutsackers.  The debate of the nutsackers is borrow spend fuck the American citizen, and cultivated ineptitude. 

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RE: What is the solution? - 11/20/2013 6:01:21 AM   
Phydeaux


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

But there is nothing magic about industry either. 


Quite agree.

But here's the thing.

If health care is done by industry government can act as a watchdog.
If government provides healthcare - who acts as the watchdog?

Now- what the best answer as to what form that should take - is up for debate.
Personally I favor an approach where the industry is guaranteed a set profit per enroller And only that profit.
Competition to attract subscribers will lead to creative, well constructed plans.

Desire to lower costs to attract customers would ensue negotiation...

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RE: What is the solution? - 11/20/2013 9:56:38 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

Tj, I was kidding about Cuba, it was tongue in cheek...... What happened to America?


LOL well, believe it or not, but some Americans don't even know that they need to go hat in hand to the US govt to get a license to travel there.. just like some are shocked if you tell them that if they are living in another country (even if they were born in that country but have 1 American parent that makes them an American citizen) and they are legally required to file tax returns with the IRS every year and if they make more than a certain amount of income they will be paying taxes to the US!.. some don't believe me.. I had someone argue with me stating that when they moved out of the US they got some letter exempting them.. at some point they will get a nasty surprise!.. cuz the IRS in recent years is seriously targeting those scofflaws.. and even if no tax is owed, there is a huge fine for not filing their yearly returns..

I don't know what happened to America but have you noticed that those countries that have good affordable national health care have (IMO) a very different attitude towards other less fortunate people, they are much more humane and not (generally) cold-hearted & dog-eat-dog (this is quite evident to me just by the difference in posts between non-US posters & US posters).. and their corporations also are not on the same greed level of capitalism as American corps are (imo)..

dam! Every 5 minutes there is yet another dam Humana ad on tv along with a nightly half-hour infomercial.. geeze.. if they are advertising this much, you cant tell me they aren't gonna be making a ton of money off Obamacare & selling their junk policies to those Americans that believe the ads (without reading the fine print)..

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RE: What is the solution? - 11/20/2013 10:49:55 AM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

If health care is done by industry government can act as a watchdog.


If it ain't republicans

quote:

ORIGINAL:Phydeaux
If government provides healthcare - who acts as the watchdog?


The American people.  Just look at how many people are watching healthcare right now. 

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RE: What is the solution? - 11/20/2013 11:59:22 AM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
The American people.  Just look at how many people are watching healthcare right now. 

Most of these people seem to be whining like a schoolgirl who didn't make the cheerleading squad rather than suggesting any coherent checks and balances on the insurance providers as an alternative to the ACA, though.


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RE: What is the solution? - 11/20/2013 12:05:43 PM   
Zonie63


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444
but there are lots of other countries that medical tourists can travel to.. saves them money and they get a nice trip out of it too.. of course it would be wise to have that all researched prior to needing it


Some people around here go down to Mexico (which is only 50 miles to the south) for dental care and prescriptions, although the rules for Americans obtaining prescriptions are a bit convoluted, but in some cases, might still be worth it. I haven't done it myself, although I've considered it for getting some dental work done.

Dental care is another aspect of healthcare which seems to be overlooked. Most dental plans seem to offer two cleanings a year and x-rays, but if you need any kind of major work, like root canals, crowns, etc., the out-of-pocket costs are still pretty high, even with the insurance paying its share. Extractions are still cheap, but dentures are costly.


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RE: What is the solution? - 11/20/2013 12:07:41 PM   
farglebargle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

But there is nothing magic about industry either. 


Quite agree.

But here's the thing.

If health care is done by industry government can act as a watchdog.
If government provides healthcare - who acts as the watchdog?

Now- what the best answer as to what form that should take - is up for debate.
Personally I favor an approach where the industry is guaranteed a set profit per enroller And only that profit.
Competition to attract subscribers will lead to creative, well constructed plans.

Desire to lower costs to attract customers would ensue negotiation...


The lowest costs are those without Health Insurers adding costs.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: What is the solution? - 11/20/2013 12:08:41 PM   
farglebargle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
The American people.  Just look at how many people are watching healthcare right now. 

Most of these people seem to be whining like a schoolgirl who didn't make the cheerleading squad rather than suggesting any coherent checks and balances on the insurance providers as an alternative to the ACA, though.



That's because the ACA **IS** the regulation of the industry.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: What is the solution? - 11/20/2013 12:12:08 PM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		Don't tell me, tell the neocons and "libertarians".

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RE: What is the solution? - 11/20/2013 12:35:44 PM   
MariaB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

I don't know what happened to America but have you noticed that those countries that have good affordable national health care have (IMO) a very different attitude towards other less fortunate people, they are much more humane and not (generally) cold-hearted & dog-eat-dog (this is quite evident to me just by the difference in posts between non-US posters & US posters).. and their corporations also are not on the same greed level of capitalism as American corps are (imo)..


As far as health care and believing everyone has a right to equal treatment, that attitude comes from never knowing anything different. We have never seen or known anyone who was refused treatment or lost a home through medical treatment . There would be such a public outcry if that ever happened.

The only time we have seen the NHS go into crisis on a regular basis was during the Thatcher era and those bloody Tories who broke the British back bone by trying to capitalize everything, constantly argued they couldn’t afford the NHS. Strange but every government since has afforded it without a problem!



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RE: What is the solution? - 11/20/2013 12:46:51 PM   
Extravagasm


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quote:

DarkSteven Post 64: We pay for our food. We pay for our shelter. We pay for our utilities. We pay for medical care.



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RE: What is the solution? - 11/20/2013 2:42:11 PM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

Tj, I was kidding about Cuba, it was tongue in cheek...... What happened to America?


LOL well, believe it or not, but some Americans don't even know that they need to go hat in hand to the US govt to get a license to travel there.. just like some are shocked if you tell them that if they are living in another country (even if they were born in that country but have 1 American parent that makes them an American citizen) and they are legally required to file tax returns with the IRS every year and if they make more than a certain amount of income they will be paying taxes to the US!.. some don't believe me.. I had someone argue with me stating that when they moved out of the US they got some letter exempting them.. at some point they will get a nasty surprise!.. cuz the IRS in recent years is seriously targeting those scofflaws.. and even if no tax is owed, there is a huge fine for not filing their yearly returns..

I don't know what happened to America but have you noticed that those countries that have good affordable national health care have (IMO) a very different attitude towards other less fortunate people, they are much more humane and not (generally) cold-hearted & dog-eat-dog (this is quite evident to me just by the difference in posts between non-US posters & US posters).. and their corporations also are not on the same greed level of capitalism as American corps are (imo)..

dam! Every 5 minutes there is yet another dam Humana ad on tv along with a nightly half-hour infomercial.. geeze.. if they are advertising this much, you cant tell me they aren't gonna be making a ton of money off Obamacare & selling their junk policies to those Americans that believe the ads (without reading the fine print)..



No I haven't noticed that. I have noticed they love to crow about how superior they are to us though. Have you noticed that? I have also noticed that while you seem to really hate the US, you are still living here. Personally if I hated the people I lived with that much I would have hit the border a long time ago.

< Message edited by thishereboi -- 11/20/2013 2:43:32 PM >

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