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RE: What is the solution? - 11/20/2013 3:02:11 PM   
MariaB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

Tj, I was kidding about Cuba, it was tongue in cheek...... What happened to America?


LOL well, believe it or not, but some Americans don't even know that they need to go hat in hand to the US govt to get a license to travel there.. just like some are shocked if you tell them that if they are living in another country (even if they were born in that country but have 1 American parent that makes them an American citizen) and they are legally required to file tax returns with the IRS every year and if they make more than a certain amount of income they will be paying taxes to the US!.. some don't believe me.. I had someone argue with me stating that when they moved out of the US they got some letter exempting them.. at some point they will get a nasty surprise!.. cuz the IRS in recent years is seriously targeting those scofflaws.. and even if no tax is owed, there is a huge fine for not filing their yearly returns..

I don't know what happened to America but have you noticed that those countries that have good affordable national health care have (IMO) a very different attitude towards other less fortunate people, they are much more humane and not (generally) cold-hearted & dog-eat-dog (this is quite evident to me just by the difference in posts between non-US posters & US posters).. and their corporations also are not on the same greed level of capitalism as American corps are (imo)..

dam! Every 5 minutes there is yet another dam Humana ad on tv along with a nightly half-hour infomercial.. geeze.. if they are advertising this much, you cant tell me they aren't gonna be making a ton of money off Obamacare & selling their junk policies to those Americans that believe the ads (without reading the fine print)..



No I haven't noticed that. I have noticed they love to crow about how superior they are to us though. Have you noticed that? I have also noticed that while you seem to really hate the US, you are still living here. Personally if I hated the people I lived with that much I would have hit the border a long time ago.


Sorry if you think that anyone who speaks out against the cons of the existing US medical system and lets face it, plenty of Americans do, are being superior. I think you're taking things all too personally.

I find it shocking that they treat animals the way they do in Spain. I find it frustrating at how they treat their women in many of the middle eastern countries and I find it appalling that some US citizens, through no fault of their own, can't afford medical treatment, get turned down by their insurance companies when they really need them and sometimes die, when they could so easily of been saved.

I find the ignorant fucks who think anyone with a national health system must be living under a Marxist flag are the arrogant ones but it works both ways doesn't it?!? The thing about public forums is, they don't have borders.


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RE: What is the solution? - 11/20/2013 3:49:11 PM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

Tj, I was kidding about Cuba, it was tongue in cheek...... What happened to America?


LOL well, believe it or not, but some Americans don't even know that they need to go hat in hand to the US govt to get a license to travel there.. just like some are shocked if you tell them that if they are living in another country (even if they were born in that country but have 1 American parent that makes them an American citizen) and they are legally required to file tax returns with the IRS every year and if they make more than a certain amount of income they will be paying taxes to the US!.. some don't believe me.. I had someone argue with me stating that when they moved out of the US they got some letter exempting them.. at some point they will get a nasty surprise!.. cuz the IRS in recent years is seriously targeting those scofflaws.. and even if no tax is owed, there is a huge fine for not filing their yearly returns..

I don't know what happened to America but have you noticed that those countries that have good affordable national health care have (IMO) a very different attitude towards other less fortunate people, they are much more humane and not (generally) cold-hearted & dog-eat-dog (this is quite evident to me just by the difference in posts between non-US posters & US posters).. and their corporations also are not on the same greed level of capitalism as American corps are (imo)..

dam! Every 5 minutes there is yet another dam Humana ad on tv along with a nightly half-hour infomercial.. geeze.. if they are advertising this much, you cant tell me they aren't gonna be making a ton of money off Obamacare & selling their junk policies to those Americans that believe the ads (without reading the fine print)..



No I haven't noticed that. I have noticed they love to crow about how superior they are to us though. Have you noticed that? I have also noticed that while you seem to really hate the US, you are still living here. Personally if I hated the people I lived with that much I would have hit the border a long time ago.


Sorry if you think that anyone who speaks out against the cons of the existing US medical system and lets face it, plenty of Americans do, are being superior. I think you're taking things all too personally.

I find it shocking that they treat animals the way they do in Spain. I find it frustrating at how they treat their women in many of the middle eastern countries and I find it appalling that some US citizens, through no fault of their own, can't afford medical treatment, get turned down by their insurance companies when they really need them and sometimes die, when they could so easily of been saved.

I find the ignorant fucks who think anyone with a national health system must be living under a Marxist flag are the arrogant ones but it works both ways doesn't it?!? The thing about public forums is, they don't have borders.




I think you might want to read my response again. And then tell me what about the part I bolded doesn't scream superiority over the US

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Profile   Post #: 82
RE: What is the solution? - 11/20/2013 10:43:27 PM   
tj444


Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

Tj, I was kidding about Cuba, it was tongue in cheek...... What happened to America?


LOL well, believe it or not, but some Americans don't even know that they need to go hat in hand to the US govt to get a license to travel there.. just like some are shocked if you tell them that if they are living in another country (even if they were born in that country but have 1 American parent that makes them an American citizen) and they are legally required to file tax returns with the IRS every year and if they make more than a certain amount of income they will be paying taxes to the US!.. some don't believe me.. I had someone argue with me stating that when they moved out of the US they got some letter exempting them.. at some point they will get a nasty surprise!.. cuz the IRS in recent years is seriously targeting those scofflaws.. and even if no tax is owed, there is a huge fine for not filing their yearly returns..

I don't know what happened to America but have you noticed that those countries that have good affordable national health care have (IMO) a very different attitude towards other less fortunate people, they are much more humane and not (generally) cold-hearted & dog-eat-dog (this is quite evident to me just by the difference in posts between non-US posters & US posters).. and their corporations also are not on the same greed level of capitalism as American corps are (imo)..

dam! Every 5 minutes there is yet another dam Humana ad on tv along with a nightly half-hour infomercial.. geeze.. if they are advertising this much, you cant tell me they aren't gonna be making a ton of money off Obamacare & selling their junk policies to those Americans that believe the ads (without reading the fine print)..



No I haven't noticed that. I have noticed they love to crow about how superior they are to us though. Have you noticed that? I have also noticed that while you seem to really hate the US, you are still living here. Personally if I hated the people I lived with that much I would have hit the border a long time ago.

You have a different culture (corporate and personal), where making as much money as possible is what is emphasized & the one with the most toys when he/she dies wins, even if it means pain & death for those less fortunate, which is why you have the crappy, expensive health care system you have.. and why Walmart can reap massive profits while (apparently with a straight face) ask for food donations for their employees.. and why they and most other US corps have sent so many jobs offshore.. and why things will never change much even 2 decades from now (imo).. Americans are so afraid of the boogyman called "socialism" & that propaganda that you cant see how your brand of capitalism is killing your country and destroying your middle class.. but its your country, its up to Americans what happens to it.. Attacking me by throwing the "if you don't like us why are you still here?" crap at me isn't gonna solve your problems ..

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RE: What is the solution? - 11/21/2013 1:52:19 AM   
hlen5


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny

A friend of mine once suggested outlawing health insurance altogether. Obviously, it's a ridiculous idea but I have to admit that it was such an "outside of the box" concept that I had to stop for a moment and ponder it.


I knew a Lebanese - American who said in Lebanon people, don't have health insurance and almost everybody can afford healthcare.

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Profile   Post #: 84
RE: What is the solution? - 11/21/2013 2:18:15 AM   
MariaB


Posts: 2969
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline 		@thishereboi

Why is an observation and publicly noting that observation arrogant? I think the UK attitude on materialism has had a notable toxic effect on both psychological and the social well being of many British people, namely towards those not as fortunate as themselves. There's a huge difference in attitude towards friendships, leisure activities personal wealth and personal possessions in the Uk than in my parents time. I wonder though, who were the happier?!?

I have parentage from both France and the UK. Is it arrogant of me to speak openly about the social differences between those two countries? about how disillusioned I am with the UK and how dissatisfied I am at a consumer driven system that’s driven by the need to be 'middle class?' and how people have incurred huge debt to reach that middle class goal? It doesn’t mean I don’t love the UK and the British people and British people wont stamp their feet and suggest I get out because I’m publicly noting this observation to a foreign audience. I’m not blaming the people but a system, a capitalist system that was put in place when Thatcher came to the ‘throne’!. She changed our attitudes and much of what we now judge as value, is material wealth and what we, the citizen materially posses.

Just because I don’t want to drive to work In a car I’m still paying for, in clothes I bought on a credit card and just because I don't want a huge mortgage or need my house to have ‘curb appeal’, doesn’t make me arrogant and just because I talk with pride for both the French and the British health care system doesn't make me a show off. I'm merely an interested observer regarding the US and its medical care, or lack of it. None of my observations are personal, except perhaps for the man in the street who was a medical emergency without insurance. As a human being I'm saying that's fucking tragic. It makes me and others who live in a world very different to yours regarding medical care, wonder why you aren't following a proven workable system. If you choose to carry on down the 'I'm all right Jack' road whilst spitting venom on socialism then there's no point in even debating this topic.

The stupid thing is, America already uses some socialist values, just like us. All we ever did was take the good bits out of socialism and apply them.... its actually a very small 's'.


< Message edited by MariaB -- 11/21/2013 3:04:04 AM >

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RE: What is the solution? - 11/21/2013 3:57:49 AM   
RottenJohnny


Posts: 1677
Joined: 5/5/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5


quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny

A friend of mine once suggested outlawing health insurance altogether. Obviously, it's a ridiculous idea but I have to admit that it was such an "outside of the box" concept that I had to stop for a moment and ponder it.


I knew a Lebanese - American who said in Lebanon people, don't have health insurance and almost everybody can afford healthcare.

My thought regarding the idea was that it would lead to low prices but also a reduction in the quality of care available...facilities, equipment, medications, etc. Did your friend ever mention if they thought their access to those things was any less than in a country like the U.S.?

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RE: What is the solution? - 11/21/2013 6:01:53 AM   
Zonie63


Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

You have a different culture (corporate and personal), where making as much money as possible is what is emphasized & the one with the most toys when he/she dies wins, even if it means pain & death for those less fortunate, which is why you have the crappy, expensive health care system you have.. and why Walmart can reap massive profits while (apparently with a straight face) ask for food donations for their employees.. and why they and most other US corps have sent so many jobs offshore.. and why things will never change much even 2 decades from now (imo).. Americans are so afraid of the boogyman called "socialism" & that propaganda that you cant see how your brand of capitalism is killing your country and destroying your middle class.. but its your country, its up to Americans what happens to it.. Attacking me by throwing the "if you don't like us why are you still here?" crap at me isn't gonna solve your problems ..


I'm not sure exactly what's happened to our culture. We've always had a capitalist/materialist side, but it seems that it's become more militant and brazen since the 1980s. During the Reagan years, I encountered and observed a great many ideologues who were very arrogant, pushy, and aggressive, using tactics of ridicule and intimidation to quash any opposing views. It wasn't just with economics, but also with foreign policy. "Love it or leave it" arguments were common, along with the usual red-baiting reminiscent of the McCarthy era. They were able to equate loyalty to an economic ideal with loyalty to the nation itself. Even the Democrats kind of caved in, mainly as a matter of political expediency after losing big in '80, '84, and '88.

I don't think that all Americans believe that "he who dies with the most toys wins," nor am I even sure that it would constitute the majority. No doubt there are many who feel that way, and that view has somehow become pervasive throughout popular culture. But among the Great Unwashed, opinions seem mixed. Overall, I don't think Americans are really as cruel and heartless as it might seem, but I think that we try to find ways to insulate and protect ourselves from anything that might seem unpleasant or bad. I think that many still have faith in the system and believe that things will improve if we just stay our present course - wherever it may lead. Even if people wanted change, it would be impossible because nobody could ever agree on what to change it to.



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RE: What is the solution? - 11/23/2013 12:24:26 PM   
MercTech


Posts: 3706
Joined: 7/4/2006
Status: offline 		Obamacare has nothing to do with health care but is a mandatory requirement to pay insurance companies.

A good start on solutions would be to make it a Securities and Exchange violation to have "for profit" insurance companies owning all or in part "for profit" health care providers. A simple disconnect in the system that makes it a huge advantage for both health care provider companies and insurance companies to keep billed charges spiraling up and every quarterly bottom line showing growth.

Consider breaking public health care out of Health Education and Welfare and returning it to Public Health Service. PHS was gutted under the Lyndon Johnson administration to fund HEW and was sold as a cost saving measure. Instead of having government sponsored clinics with a sliding scale of payment based on income people would be issued a "medicaid" card and could go to any provider and receive basic care. Umm, if you think that worked I have some stock in a Brooklyn bridge company I'll make you a deal on. How were PHS clinics funded... well, by taxes but there was an interesting division of cost. The doctor's and nurses worked for PHS at what was a low salary. The motivation of it was School loans. A six year hitch in military medicine or a ten year hitch with PHS got your school loans forgiven on the Federal dime. The individual states had to pony up for the building. There was a "number of patients treated" breakdown on who paid for utilities and supplies. I learned how it worked when the PHS was gutted and my mom quit working for the PHS and went to work for the V.A.

The huge push by certain factions to put EVERYTHING under federal control leaves no room for customizing the system to fit local conditions. I'm an old curmudgeon that things the local area should have some say about what their population needs.

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RE: What is the solution? - 11/23/2013 12:47:41 PM   
EdBowie


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Joined: 8/11/2013
Status: offline 		I bet it would be at least 1% 

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

I don't think that all Americans believe that "he who dies with the most toys wins," nor am I even sure that it would constitute the majority.

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RE: What is the solution? - 11/24/2013 4:18:42 PM   
hlen5


Posts: 5890
Joined: 3/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny


quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5


quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny

A friend of mine once suggested outlawing health insurance altogether. Obviously, it's a ridiculous idea but I have to admit that it was such an "outside of the box" concept that I had to stop for a moment and ponder it.


I knew a Lebanese - American who said in Lebanon people, don't have health insurance and almost everybody can afford healthcare.

My thought regarding the idea was that it would lead to low prices but also a reduction in the quality of care available...facilities, equipment, medications, etc. Did your friend ever mention if they thought their access to those things was any less than in a country like the U.S.?


My impression was that it was fairly inexpensive quality care. I also think there was 100% access as well.


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Profile   Post #: 90
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