RE: Should this "child" have been aborted?

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RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? - 11/22/2013 5:50:51 PM

vincentML

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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Same answer as always. OTHER PEOPLE'S PRIVATE MEDICAL ISSUES AREN'T ANYONE ELSE'S CONCERN.

And it's mighty impolite to go sticking your nose into other people's private business.

If that is the case, do you approve of withholding medical treatment from a child in favor of prayer if that is the wish of the parents?

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RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? - 11/22/2013 5:54:38 PM

thishereboi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

FR
It's irrelevant. If that women wants to care for a person shaped lump of flesh that is her concern. Not one dime of tax money should go to it's care though.

Do you feel the same way about all babies born with defects or just this one? Maybe we could pass a law requiring all expectant mothers to take a test to determine if the kid will be defect free and if it's not we can force her to have an abortion. That way you won't have to feel like you are paying for a person shaped lump of flesh.

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RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? - 11/22/2013 5:57:18 PM

thishereboi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

He is a human he is alive.
The parents decision was theirs to make and can neither be justified or called selfish by anyone else.
My spiritual belief/philosophy of life is that there is a whole lot of painful stuff in life- and that sucks. If you find any good, any value, any hope, any happiness; you should grab it and hold on tight. If the parents have found any of that then I rejoice with and for them.

Was he alive, MJay? Was he human?

And you have no issues with the parents "exploiting" Nickolas for their own happiness?

Please explain how you think they are exploiting the child? And then maybe you can explain why you care. You have already made it clear you don't consider him human.

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RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? - 11/22/2013 5:57:23 PM

Lucylastic

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why dont you let him Answer the first question before you get in his face about what you assert a fucking ugly position
that says SO much!!!!

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RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? - 11/22/2013 6:02:04 PM

vincentML

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quote:

It always got tricky, fast. At first, students would list the attributes of humans as opposed to other animals (consciousness, self-awareness, ability to feel compassion, intelligence) . . . and then contrast the lack of these in non-human species with the holding of them by humans.

But, clearly, right out there on the margins - as in cases just like this - there are humans who don't hold these 'ordinary human attributes'. They don't even hold the attributes we have in common with other primates, or even other mammals. Yet still they're humans and, ipso facto, their lives are valuable in a way that those of other species just aren't and can never be.

Thoughtful, Peon. Thank you.

But, other sentient creatures share the same attributes with us. So, were your students not expressing a human-centric prejudice derived from oh say, the early lines of Genesis? Do humans really have a higher intrinsic value? Or is that a delusion? A tale we tell ourselves?

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RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? - 11/22/2013 6:02:27 PM

thishereboi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

why dont you let him Answer the first question before you get in his face about what you assert a fucking ugly position
that says SO much!!!!

The first question was in reply to domken. Why the fuck would I wait for or even expect someone else to answer.

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RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? - 11/22/2013 6:08:35 PM

vincentML

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quote:

Now genetic modification after birth sounds like a good Idea, I mean I would like to be eight inches taller, 75% more muscle mass, bones with the strength of steel bars... and an IQ well over 200, and be the example of God like good looks,

Mostly, at this point it is still science fiction and a long way from being a reality if ever at all. Furthermore, from the pov of evolution might not be a good idea to reduce variability in a species.

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RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? - 11/22/2013 6:15:43 PM

Lucylastic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

why dont you let him Answer the first question before you get in his face about what you assert a fucking ugly position
that says SO much!!!!

The first question was in reply to domken. Why the fuck would I wait for or even expect someone else to answer.

re read what I said, slowly, inwardly digest and comprehend,

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RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? - 11/22/2013 6:23:47 PM

thishereboi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

why dont you let him Answer the first question before you get in his face about what you assert a fucking ugly position
that says SO much!!!!

The first question was in reply to domken. Why the fuck would I wait for or even expect someone else to answer.

re read what I said, slowly, inwardly digest and comprehend,

I did and it still doesn't make sense. I posted to questions to two different people. Why would I wait for one to answer before asking a question of the other.

edited to add...now that I have replied to you, do I have to wait until you answer before I reply to anyone else. I wouldn't want to get you all in a dither over a internet forum.

< Message edited by thishereboi -- 11/22/2013 6:24:19 PM >

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RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? - 11/22/2013 6:27:54 PM

vincentML

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quote:

Please explain how you think they are exploiting the child? And then maybe you can explain why you care. You have already made it clear you don't consider him human.

Sure, boi. I will gladly give it a go.

Human societies have a long and embarrassing history of exploiting children. Exploitation may take many guises. Child exploitation was a notorious practice in the West during the industrial revolution. In some Middle Eastern and South Asian cultures today and some cultures in Texas, Arizona, Utah twelve year old girls are sold or assigned to be child brides of mature men. Some folks think child beauty pageants are exploitive of little girls. Sometimes overzealous parents may exploit their children by pushing them into team sports activities for parental ego-attention.

Did the Cokes parade their 'child' around as an ego-satisfying, attention grabbing device? Just asking.

Perhaps Nickolas should have had a court appointed child advocate.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 11/22/2013 6:30:29 PM >

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RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? - 11/22/2013 6:32:10 PM

thishereboi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Please explain how you think they are exploiting the child? And then maybe you can explain why you care. You have already made it clear you don't consider him human.

Sure, boi. I will gladly give it a go.

Human societies have a long and embarrassing history of exploiting children. Exploitation may take many guises. Child exploitation was a notorious practice in the West during the industrial revolution. In some Middle Eastern and South Asian cultures today and some cultures in Texas, Arizona, Utah twelve year old girls are sold or assigned to be child brides of mature men. Some folks think child beauty pageants are exploitive of little girls. Sometimes overzealous parents may exploit their children by pushing them into team sports activities for parental ego-attention.

Did the Cokes parade their 'child' around as an ego-satisfying, attention grabbing device? Just asking.

No I don't think they did. And again, why do you care? You implied in your posts that you don't even consider the child human but now you are trying to claim you care about it.

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RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? - 11/22/2013 6:32:13 PM

Lucylastic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

I did and it still doesn't make sense. I posted to questions to two different people. Why would I wait for one to answer before asking a question of the other.

edited to add...now that I have replied to you, do I have to wait until you answer before I reply to anyone else. I wouldn't want to get you all in a dither over a internet forum.

ok here goes, this is your response to DKs question

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

FR
It's irrelevant. If that women wants to care for a person shaped lump of flesh that is her concern. Not one dime of tax money should go to it's care though.

Do you feel the same way about all babies born with defects or just this one? Maybe we could pass a law requiring all expectant mothers to take a test to determine if the kid will be defect free and if it's not we can force her to have an abortion. That way you won't have to feel like you are paying for a person shaped lump of flesh.

Thats the person I was talking about, JUST DK, and the follow up twaddle...YOUR thinking and trying to ascribe it to Ken... Nothing to do with the other posts.

EDITED to add, YOU dont comprehend well at all. I was talking about the ONE question, you could have left the shit if he had given the response you wanted.
fuck me sideways, MAYBE you should take a break.

< Message edited by Lucylastic -- 11/22/2013 6:35:06 PM >

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RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? - 11/22/2013 6:34:25 PM

thishereboi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

I did and it still doesn't make sense. I posted to questions to two different people. Why would I wait for one to answer before asking a question of the other.

edited to add...now that I have replied to you, do I have to wait until you answer before I reply to anyone else. I wouldn't want to get you all in a dither over a internet forum.

ok here goes, this is your response to DKs question

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

FR
It's irrelevant. If that women wants to care for a person shaped lump of flesh that is her concern. Not one dime of tax money should go to it's care though.

Do you feel the same way about all babies born with defects or just this one? Maybe we could pass a law requiring all expectant mothers to take a test to determine if the kid will be defect free and if it's not we can force her to have an abortion. That way you won't have to feel like you are paying for a person shaped lump of flesh.

Thats the person I was talking about, JUST DK, and the follow up twaddle...YOUR thinking and trying to ascribe it to Ken... Nothing to do with the other posts.

You are honestly bitching because I asked more than one question in a reply. That is a fucking stretch if I ever saw one. Why don't you go trolling somewhere else for a while.

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RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? - 11/22/2013 6:36:10 PM

Lucylastic

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I just added a bit, LMFAO take your own advice

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RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? - 11/22/2013 6:36:18 PM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

FR
It's irrelevant. If that women wants to care for a person shaped lump of flesh that is her concern. Not one dime of tax money should go to it's care though.

Do you feel the same way about all babies born with defects or just this one? Maybe we could pass a law requiring all expectant mothers to take a test to determine if the kid will be defect free and if it's not we can force her to have an abortion. That way you won't have to feel like you are paying for a person shaped lump of flesh.

We're not talking about a defect. We're talking about a lump of human shaped tissue. It will never do anything even remotely human. It won't crawl, walk, talk, see, hear, taste, respond to anything except by reflex. It may look like a baby but it is no more alive than any other brain dead thing.

And I never said a single thing about forcing the woman to do anything. I specifically said she was free to do whatever she wants with that thing. All I said was no public resources should ever be spent on it.

< Message edited by DomKen -- 11/22/2013 6:37:10 PM >

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RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? - 11/22/2013 6:43:41 PM

vincentML

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quote:

So, if Mrs Coke had that right, why not others regardless of condition of the embryo?

They do have that right.

Currently under great political pressure.

quote:

Should the state have intervened? Is state intervention a slippery slope backwards to eugenics?

No. Its not a slippery slope. Its just uncalled for and its the family's right and private decision to make.

There are currently tens of thousands (I think) patients in persistent vegetative states. Most do not show any responses to our most finely tuned brain imaging devices. The families are not paying for their maintenance over the decades.

So, does the family have a forever right? A broader question than the instant case but I am trying to explore some philosophical concepts.

quote:

We cannot quantify "providing dignity" neither do we know the day to day details of their lives. Perhaps based on their own ethics they were providing it.

As a society and culture we have, I think, a responsibility to explore ethics that apply beyond the family. Surely, we cannot as a society condone honor killings because they are based on the ethics of a family.

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RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? - 11/22/2013 6:48:12 PM

vincentML

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No I don't think they did. And again, why do you care? You implied in your posts that you don't even consider the child human but now you are trying to claim you care about it.

I think you are mischaracterizing my comments.

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RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? - 11/22/2013 7:51:27 PM

pissdoll

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Not one dime of tax money should go to it's care though.

right. so...we allow for tax money to go to diabetics who refuse to follow doctor advice and contribute to their illness. we do the same for people who felt a small lump...that got larger....and larger..and allowed cancer to grow and spread before they sought medical help. we allow tax money to treat people who contract diseases we have immunizations for. we treat drug addicts and alcoholics and smokers. we treat those who drive recklessly and wrap their cars and motorcycles around trees.

we allow tax money to treat any number of people who have behaved in a manner that contributed to their diseases. i don't see that this baby did such a thing. i didn't read anywhere that his mother behaved in a manner during her pregnancy to contribute to his condition.

so when it comes to where we spend our tax money, i have a MUCH bigger problem with treating people who could have prevented their illnesses than i do for this baby who did absolutely nothing wrong.

i'm an atheist. he's not a lump of flesh. he's a baby. a severely disabled baby. his mother had every right to carry him to term and to treat him with compassion and love while he is alive.

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RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? - 11/22/2013 8:12:06 PM

MsMJAY

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So, does the family have a forever right? A broader question than the instant case but I am trying to explore some philosophical concepts. As a society and culture we have, I think, a responsibility to explore ethics that apply beyond the family. Surely, we cannot as a society condone honor killings because they are based on the ethics of a family.

Not forever. Just until that family member dies. These issues are going to take a lot a philosophical debate.
Honor killings? No. Euthanasia? Maybe. At some point instead of focusing so much on when life begins, this country is going to have to have the discussion on when life ends. I believe that people who have terminal illnesses and are dying should have the choice to end their lives in a humane way and on their own terms. In my opinion, it is a decision that should be left to the patient, their family and their doctors.

Years ago we did not have these questions because we did not have the same ability to save and extend lives in the way that we do now. Now that new innovations seem to popping up everyday we are going to have to start talking about the ethics humanity issues of medicine and where the line the between philosophy and science should be drawn. And its going to take a whole lot more than "Living Wills" to solve all the issues created by our medical advancements.

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RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? - 11/22/2013 9:20:10 PM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pissdoll
i'm an atheist. he's not a lump of flesh. he's a baby. a severely disabled baby. his mother had every right to carry him to term and to treat him with compassion and love while he is alive.

She does but since there is no hope and the humane thing would have been to let it die then the rest of society should not be burdened with the care of something that has no chance of ever being anything.

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