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RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? - 11/22/2013 9:28:04 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Was he alive,

Clearly it was alive.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Was he human?

I'd say more than a potato less than a turtle.

(in reply to vincentML)
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RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? - 11/23/2013 12:47:05 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

She does but since there is no hope and the humane thing would have been to let it die then the rest of society should not be burdened with the care of something that has no chance of ever being anything.

He's something wonderful to his mother. But more to the point, your argument lays the foundation for a program of eugenics. Once it's accepted, there remains only the matter of deciding who should be "humanely" disposed of.

K.


(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? - 11/23/2013 3:56:32 AM   
farglebargle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Same answer as always. OTHER PEOPLE'S PRIVATE MEDICAL ISSUES AREN'T ANYONE ELSE'S CONCERN.

And it's mighty impolite to go sticking your nose into other people's private business.

If that is the case, do you approve of withholding medical treatment from a child in favor of prayer if that is the wish of the parents?


Maybe you didn't understand me the first time.

OTHER PEOPLE'S PRIVATE MEDICAL ISSUES AREN'T ANYONE ELSE'S CONCERN.

And it's mighty impolite to go sticking your nose into other people's private business.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to vincentML)
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RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? - 11/23/2013 6:47:56 AM   
njlauren


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This story raises all kinds of ethical questions, and they are not easy to answer, from any angle. Anti abortion people will tell you adamantly that anything that is living and born from a mother is a child, and cannot be aborted and shouldn't be allowed to, yet they aren't the ones who have to live with that, the parents do. A child who tests out for certain genetic diseases that lead to short, painful, miserable lives en utero who is allowed to go to term is going to face a lot. A child with the extra gene that causes Down's syndrome or other disabilities is going to face many challenges and it going to be hard on the family...and so forth.The problem with the focus on 'unborn children' and so forth is that it leaves out the family involved, it focuses on one issue and ignores the other. Saying you will pray for someone with a severely disable child is to duck the issue.

The answer with that is it has to be up to the parents, it is their lives, they have to decide what they wish to do. I remember a story, in the early 1970's just before Roe, NY State legalized abortion. The vote was a close one, and one of the deciding votes was this quiet Italian guy from the Bronx area family lived in. He took all kinds of shit, Ma Church thundered about the vote and his decision, he was vilified by the church hierarchy, threatened with being denied communion, some talk of trying to ex communicate him, it was vicious.

Someone asked him why he voted that way, and he said that he really agonized over it but that in the end he had to leave it to the parents. He said the reason was his daughter had a severely disabled child, that required 24/7 care, and as a result the family split up,husband walked way. He said his daughter would never, ever get an abortion, but that seeing her struggles, he realized he couldn't tell others faced with this they had to keep going with the pregnancy, any more than someone could tell his daughter to abort it.....the fatheads in the church, with their rigidity, never seem to fathom that all moral decisions have costs and that sometimes there are the lesser of two evils (like, for example, not fighting condom programs that help prevent HIV transmission).

With something like this story, it also shows why it needs to be personal. The people in the story felt that this was their child and they had to let it come to term, they felt strongly enough to face the consequences of their actions, and that is their right, as it is for someone else to say they can't/won't deal with this. This isn't aborting a child because it is female or male, it isn't aborting it because it has brown eyes, it is deciding whether to abort it on the grounds do they feel it really will have a life...and this couple said yes, it will have a life. I could argue the child is alive, but isn't a person, because without the higher brain areas it doesn't have self awareness, it is like someone in a vegetative state...but that choice is up to the loved ones,has to be, churches and dumb ass Senators sitting in congress with an Xray are not the choosers (referring to Frist when he was senator,holding up an xray of Schiavo and saying "something doesn't add up here"...note, when they autopsied Terry Schiavo, she literally had no higher level brain tissue, it was gone).

And yes, there are slippery slopes here, about who decides and where. With something like this child, for example, if the long term care requires the resources of the public, who makes that call? If someone is in a vegetative state, or is severely disabled,should the state pay for this? Should we pay for the guy who smoked heavily, ate poorly and had a heart problem? Should someone who drank heavily, like Mickey Mantle or David Crosby (of CSN) be allowed to take a liver in transplant, since they 'did it to themselves?'? Should we waste medical resources, especially through medicare, to revive an 85 year old person who has had their heart stop, knowing more of the same would follow, with each incident costing a couple of hundred grand? The family who doesn't want to let go would say yes, but how about that maybe that money could save someone who has 20 years of life left and needs bypass? Not easy questions, but we make them. For example, we ban certain kinds of food additives (like trans fats might be) because of the health consequences that will come back to bite us; part of the reason for laws requiring helmets is that when riding a motorcycle without a helmet, the person is likely to have cases of severe head trauma, that are costly, that can end up being a public burden....

One of the ironies of the pro life people, getting back to this story, is many of them are also vehemently anti government, they scream we have to gut the government, people need to 'take charge' of their own lives, pay their own way, etc.....but few of them seem to think that with something like this baby, or in the case of Terry Schiavo, is that if they force those decisions via law, people can't take charge of their own life and in the end, will end up costing the government. How much do unwanted children cost in terms of money and social costs (of poverty, jails, etc?).......forcing parents to make decisions one way or the other, whether being forced to keep it or forced to abort it, are doing the same thing, they are taking it out of the hands of the parents, you can't have it both ways, either parents have the right to make decisions and 'take responsibility' for their lives or not, and you also, from either side, have to accept the consequences to you and society for those choices. The pro life person who wants abortion made illegal cannot duck the fact that it is going to cost them and society, they can't just walk away at childbirth as many of them seem want to do (in all fairness, I also know a lot of pro life people who fully support aid to children and so forth, but polls show many pro life people are also of the tea party/'kill the government' mentality).

I hope the parents take what joy they can out of the child's life and that there is meaning there for them and for the child.

(in reply to farglebargle)
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RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? - 11/23/2013 7:39:46 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

FR
It's irrelevant. If that women wants to care for a person shaped lump of flesh that is her concern. Not one dime of tax money should go to it's care though.



Do you feel the same way about all babies born with defects or just this one? Maybe we could pass a law requiring all expectant mothers to take a test to determine if the kid will be defect free and if it's not we can force her to have an abortion. That way you won't have to feel like you are paying for a person shaped lump of flesh.

We're not talking about a defect. We're talking about a lump of human shaped tissue. It will never do anything even remotely human. It won't crawl, walk, talk, see, hear, taste, respond to anything except by reflex. It may look like a baby but it is no more alive than any other brain dead thing.

And I never said a single thing about forcing the woman to do anything. I specifically said she was free to do whatever she wants with that thing. All I said was no public resources should ever be spent on it.


And people call conservatives cold hearted. So tell me where do you draw the line? Babies are born all the time with problems that will force others to care for them for life. Should they be denied public resources as well? Or perhaps as I suggested we can test in the womb and force abortions to save you money.



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RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? - 11/23/2013 7:44:07 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

She does but since there is no hope and the humane thing would have been to let it die then the rest of society should not be burdened with the care of something that has no chance of ever being anything.

He's something wonderful to his mother. But more to the point, your argument lays the foundation for a program of eugenics. Once it's accepted, there remains only the matter of deciding who should be "humanely" disposed of.

K.





I guess pro choice should now be redefined to mean you have the choice as long as it won't cost me anything,

_____________________________

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(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? - 11/23/2013 7:56:40 AM   
Lucylastic


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In the same way that pro life means if you have a disabled feteus growing in utero, or one that dies in utero, you will be forced to carry to term, be uninsurable,, spend hundreds of thousands on medical care, and then be called a moocher for the rest of your life.
Ridiculous no???

Imagine how many ancephalic children would be born if fetal pain/personhood bills are passed as law, Do you think ANY family should be forced to just live with it, be forced to suffer something they may not be able to handle, financially mentally, or even physically?

Those parents that do often struggle beyond imagining, that is THEIR choice. More Power to them, I dont agree people should be left struggling, which is often the case, however NOT every family or women is capable of doing so, and Neither should they need to be.
I hypothetically see more pregnant women commit suicide or infanticide cases, should those bills come into effect

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RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? - 11/23/2013 8:12:02 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

She does but since there is no hope and the humane thing would have been to let it die then the rest of society should not be burdened with the care of something that has no chance of ever being anything.

He's something wonderful to his mother. But more to the point, your argument lays the foundation for a program of eugenics. Once it's accepted, there remains only the matter of deciding who should be "humanely" disposed of.

K.



Who wrote anything about disposed of? I certainly didn't. I wrote let. Maybe you need to brush up on basic English.

< Message edited by DomKen -- 11/23/2013 8:16:27 AM >

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RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? - 11/23/2013 8:14:57 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

FR
It's irrelevant. If that women wants to care for a person shaped lump of flesh that is her concern. Not one dime of tax money should go to it's care though.



Do you feel the same way about all babies born with defects or just this one? Maybe we could pass a law requiring all expectant mothers to take a test to determine if the kid will be defect free and if it's not we can force her to have an abortion. That way you won't have to feel like you are paying for a person shaped lump of flesh.

We're not talking about a defect. We're talking about a lump of human shaped tissue. It will never do anything even remotely human. It won't crawl, walk, talk, see, hear, taste, respond to anything except by reflex. It may look like a baby but it is no more alive than any other brain dead thing.

And I never said a single thing about forcing the woman to do anything. I specifically said she was free to do whatever she wants with that thing. All I said was no public resources should ever be spent on it.


And people call conservatives cold hearted. So tell me where do you draw the line? Babies are born all the time with problems that will force others to care for them for life. Should they be denied public resources as well? Or perhaps as I suggested we can test in the womb and force abortions to save you money.

How about the presence of a cerebrum? This thing lacks that which makes a person a person and no amount of medical care can change that.

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RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? - 11/23/2013 9:27:01 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Same answer as always. OTHER PEOPLE'S PRIVATE MEDICAL ISSUES AREN'T ANYONE ELSE'S CONCERN.

And it's mighty impolite to go sticking your nose into other people's private business.

If that is the case, do you approve of withholding medical treatment from a child in favor of prayer if that is the wish of the parents?


Maybe you didn't understand me the first time.

OTHER PEOPLE'S PRIVATE MEDICAL ISSUES AREN'T ANYONE ELSE'S CONCERN.

And it's mighty impolite to go sticking your nose into other people's private business.

The mistreatment of a vulnerable child by its parents is the business of the State. Abuse of the helpless by the powerful is not excused because of blood relationship or marriage. The prevention of such abuse is the purpose of the state.

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RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? - 11/23/2013 9:40:00 AM   
MercTech


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In what alternate reality does tax money ever go to fund medical care for experimental procedures? It is hard enough for citizens poor enough to qualify for medicaid to get a prescription for an acute infection.

I want to know who is funding the radical treatment to keep this kid alive? Are the parents going to be paying off the medical bill for the rest of their lives and passing on the debt to their other kids?
Probably the doctors involved get to write career making papers for the professional journals and the hospital board uses the cost of this treatment to justify gouging prices that make routine medical treatment unaffordable for hundreds. <sigh>

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RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? - 11/23/2013 9:53:05 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

so when it comes to where we spend our tax money, i have a MUCH bigger problem with treating people who could have prevented their illnesses than i do for this baby who did absolutely nothing wrong.

There is a body of research to suggest that misbehavioral illnesses like various addictions, over-eating, high blood pressure, etc are linked to childhood stress events and/or stress hormones among people who work in rigid, hierarchical organizations. GABOR MATE MD See also SAPOLSKY

quote:

he's not a lump of flesh. he's a baby. a severely disabled baby. his mother had every right to carry him to term and to treat him with compassion and love while he is alive.

Treat him with compassion and love? Nickolas was as insentient as a corn plant. Should a corn plant be wrapped in a blanket and taken on family outings? I don't think so. Disabled is not a workable adjective in this discussion. I did not question the mother's right to carry her corn plant to term. I asked if it should have been aborted.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 11/23/2013 10:10:39 AM >

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RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? - 11/23/2013 10:00:06 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

She does but since there is no hope and the humane thing would have been to let it die then the rest of society should not be burdened with the care of something that has no chance of ever being anything.

He's something wonderful to his mother. But more to the point, your argument lays the foundation for a program of eugenics. Once it's accepted, there remains only the matter of deciding who should be "humanely" disposed of.

K.

You are correct, K. The shadow of eugenics emerges from the past in this case. That history is part of the ethical quandary. An alternative might have been to appoint a child advocate and have a hearing regarding institutionalizing Nickolas.

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RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? - 11/23/2013 10:05:30 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

Imagine how many ancephalic children would be born if fetal pain/personhood bills are passed as law, Do you think ANY family should be forced to just live with it, be forced to suffer something they may not be able to handle, financially mentally, or even physically?

I wonder to what degree of heroic medical practice personhood legislation would hold doctors and hospitals responsible and liable for the safe delivery of these fetuses?

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RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? - 11/23/2013 10:33:17 AM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Is he a human person or simply a "living" doll?
Were the parents justified or selfish in nurturing "him."
How does this story resonate with your spiritual belief or philosophy of life?




I think this is an entirely personal matter, for the family to decide. I would not have made the choice they did.

As for how the story relates to my philosophy, I think that even presuming we have a right to be judgemental about it reflects the negative impact on individual freedom, that is an inherent consequence of assuming all this shit is our business, and for government to play some important role in.

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RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? - 11/23/2013 11:44:16 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

In the same way that pro life means if you have a disabled feteus growing in utero, or one that dies in utero, you will be forced to carry to term, be uninsurable,, spend hundreds of thousands on medical care, and then be called a moocher for the rest of your life.
Ridiculous no???

Yes it is ridiculous and total bullshit to boot.


Imagine how many ancephalic children would be born if fetal pain/personhood bills are passed as law, Do you think ANY family should be forced to just live with it, be forced to suffer something they may not be able to handle, financially mentally, or even physically?

No one forced her to carry the kid. That was her choice. That's what pro choice means, you can choose to kill it or keep it.

Those parents that do often struggle beyond imagining, that is THEIR choice. More Power to them, I dont agree people should be left struggling, which is often the case, however NOT every family or women is capable of doing so, and Neither should they need to be.
I hypothetically see more pregnant women commit suicide or infanticide cases, should those bills come into effect

I must have missed the bill that would require women to carry dead fetuses around. Perhaps you have a link?






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RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? - 11/23/2013 12:05:14 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Is he a human person or simply a "living" doll?
Were the parents justified or selfish in nurturing "him."
How does this story resonate with your spiritual belief or philosophy of life?




I think this is an entirely personal matter, for the family to decide. I would not have made the choice they did.

As for how the story relates to my philosophy, I think that even presuming we have a right to be judgemental about it reflects the negative impact on individual freedom, that is an inherent consequence of assuming all this shit is our business, and for government to play some important role in.

Thank you, Rich. Perhaps you can give me answers to questions that were inartfully dodged by other small government, individual liberty types earlier in this thread

As you know we have established agencies at state and local levels to advocate for innocent and powerless infants. Given the long history of abusive and exploitive behavior toward the young do you not think government should have an interest in children's welfare?

In the case of the powerless whose individual freedoms are paramount? The parents'?

I think there are several cases about religious withholding of medical care for children passing up the judicial ladder now. In these cases do the individual and religious freedoms of the parents trump the individual liberties and safety of the infants?

To what extent do parents have property rights over their infants vis-à-vis the state beyond the obligation to care for them? Some in this thread have suggested that the parental right to happiness trumped any benefit to Nickolas even if any benefit to Nickolas is dubious.

Welcome your input here.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
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RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? - 11/23/2013 12:22:06 PM   
TheHeretic


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I don't speak for any organized political philosophy, Vince, nor do any of those speak for me. I'm heading out the door shortly, but I'll see if I can get back to your questions in some sort of timely manner. It seems we are to have company of the hard drinking variety this weekend.

My answers have a tendency to kill threads anyway, so it might be for the best.

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That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? - 11/23/2013 2:52:22 PM   
farglebargle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Same answer as always. OTHER PEOPLE'S PRIVATE MEDICAL ISSUES AREN'T ANYONE ELSE'S CONCERN.

And it's mighty impolite to go sticking your nose into other people's private business.

If that is the case, do you approve of withholding medical treatment from a child in favor of prayer if that is the wish of the parents?


Maybe you didn't understand me the first time.

OTHER PEOPLE'S PRIVATE MEDICAL ISSUES AREN'T ANYONE ELSE'S CONCERN.

And it's mighty impolite to go sticking your nose into other people's private business.

The mistreatment of a vulnerable child by its parents is the business of the State. Abuse of the helpless by the powerful is not excused because of blood relationship or marriage. The prevention of such abuse is the purpose of the state.


In the context of this discussion, the medical practice of abortion ( and how rude people seem to think their opinion matters ) isn't it rather silly to be invoking the states' interest in a live-born child? ( as if that would be applicable? )

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? - 11/23/2013 3:51:57 PM   
TheHeretic


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See? Just me threatening to answer a question shuts the thread down.

But what the hell. The dishwasher is running, the drunk tank linens are in the other washer, and the dry cleaning and shotgun shells have been picked up.

First off, Vincent, I have seen you pussy out of WAY too many discussions, to watch you climb up on a high horse here and whine about people not answering you. That's a bitch move, and you may consider yourself called on it. This happens most frequently when you assume you are the only one who can appreciate and indulge in nuance and degree, while anyone you choose to challenge will be held to an absolute stance. My beer loving brother in law is far more entertaining, and can be counted to pick up the dinner check.

Oh yes. We have state and local agencies to address child abuse. Google Gabriel Hernandez, pick a source you like, and get familiar with how wonderfully efficient they are. And FYI, the people they were going to fire over that are sitting home and collecting their pay, while their union runs it through several years of appeal that will most likely see them back at their desks, once the furor dies all the way down. Go do that now.

......

Got a base of knowledge on Gabriel? Good. Now quit thinking having an agency with the authority to step in is some sort of magic bullet and final answer. Because we had an agency everyone could refer it too, nobody stepped up to beat down those miserable fucks who did that to him, and get that child to safety before he was murdered.


It's a question of where we draw the lines, and how we weigh the values that come into conflict. In the case of parent whose religious beliefs deny them the option of modern medicine, I start with a default to the position of religious liberty, and then look to the individual case. Will the child certainly die without treatment, and certainly live with it? Then permanently remove the child from their custody. That is abuse. Will the child die at home, surrounded by love and care without treatment vs. only maybe die after months of mediturture in a heartless maze of needles, tubes, and strangers who come and go? I believe that choice remains with the parents.

We are a nation of laws. When our laws about abuse and neglect come into conflict with our foundational principles of liberty and the limited powers of government, I think it is best looked at on a case by case basis, and in many cases, better by a jury, rather than a single judge.

Now back to you, Vince. Do you believe the government should be empowered to force a family in this situation to abort the child?

See you on the next thread in a week or so, I suspect.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to TheHeretic)
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