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RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? - 11/25/2013 8:59:08 PM

Toysinbabeland

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: Toysinbabeland

Fr:
This mother opted to receive and love her child unconditionally.
That's her privilege as a mother, not to be questioned.

Toys, I think you may be giving too much credit to the notion that the mother acted through free will rather than the influence of hormones. How much choice did she really have? And as an aside, if anyone wishes to go down this trail, none of us may have as much free will as we like to credit ourselves. Maybe that is best left for another thread however.

Pffft.
Hormones don't make a mother in her position gush & beam.
She loves her baby, regardless of his condition.
It's a pity he's not an average child, but he's still hers to love.
Do you dare get between a mother and her child?

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RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? - 11/25/2013 9:01:14 PM

thishereboi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: deathtothepixies

Funny cartoon, but it's a shame the last bubble didn't read " you can choose whether you want an abortion or not"

but I guess if it told the truth it wouldn't have been worth posting

you could change the last panel and it wouldn't change the point at all but apparently you missed it.

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RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? - 11/25/2013 9:39:31 PM

LittleGirlHeart

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i think that these kids might have some link that could be useful to the human race. so just cuz they're beyond screwed up for a lack of a better word doesn;t mean they shouldn't be given what ever time on earth they will have. to me.

< Message edited by LittleGirlHeart -- 11/25/2013 9:42:38 PM >

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RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? - 11/26/2013 4:20:03 AM

MsMJAY

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Now that is really easy for you to say, but I live in a state where the "fundies" did indeed "get some of their dumbass regulations passed." Personhood may have failed, but the restrictions these same fundies have placed on abortion providers have successfully managed to close every abortion clinic but one in the state of Mississippi. And they are working diligently to get that one closed.

If they are successful; where exactly are women who want or need abortions (for whatever reason) going to get them in this state? Especially poorer women who may not have the means or transportation to travel to other states? Their dumbass regulations are not being blocked by the courts (at least not in a manner timely enough to keep these clinics from closing.) So women in this state are to some extent being forced to carry unwanted pregnancies.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Lucy, if you understood how the system operates in the US, you would stop being so easily suckered by those hair (and fund) raising emails. Even on the rare occasions when the fundies actually get their dumbass regulations passed, the courts throw them right back out again.

My God, sometimes it seems to me that you're as bad as people who believe everything they read on Prison Planet.

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RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? - 11/26/2013 4:24:11 AM

angelikaJ

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Lucy, if you understood how the system operates in the US, you would stop being so easily suckered by those hair (and fund) raising emails. Even on the rare occasions when the fundies actually get their dumbass regulations passed, the courts throw them right back out again.

My God, sometimes it seems to me that you're as bad as people who believe everything they read on Prison Planet.

Apparently you are unaware of what has happened in Texas?

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RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? - 11/26/2013 6:20:57 AM

TheHeretic

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Sue.

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RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? - 11/26/2013 8:20:49 AM

vincentML

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
I wonder is it presumption and arrogance that moves you to assign a research to me for a point that you wish to make. Or is it some timidity that motivates you to lurk around the edges unable to summon the courage to make your point straight forward whatever it may be and supply supporting evidence yourself? Such is the protocol that most posters follow on these threads. I should research a link for a point that you did not even clearly identify, not knowing if it is pertinent to the OP or a divergence? I should do your work for you? Well, let me look at my choices here: arrogance or cowardly? Maybe laziness? Or too many Margaritas? Gosh, gee willikers, that is a difficult decision for me. Quite embarrassed for you though. How freakin silly and whiney your behavior seems to me!

It's an opportunity for you to learn a little something, Vincent, and you were instructed to Google Gabriel Fernandez so you would be denied the lame libbie tactic of attacking the source material.

You brought in this whole subject of question dodging, Vincent, and most hypocritically I might add. I gave you my answers, and you just dance and fling poo rather than manning up for a legitimate discussion when they come back your way.

Should the government have the power to force a child such as we have in your OP aborted? Should the doctor/hospital have a standard policy directive to execute it at birth?

And hey there, hi there, ho there, old man. Should they be the ones to decide when your life has no quality left, and when to stop feeding you, and providing for your medical needs?

Firstly, where do you gain the authority to direct me to do anything? Only in your dreams.

Secondly, the subject of question dodging was not aimed at you. I expected you would have the integrity to give me a direct answer. My mistake.

Thirdly, I stand by the protocol that you make your point and supply your own fucking support for it. No different from anyone else.

Fourthly, I never said anywhere that the government should have the power to abort the child. That was your construction of the OP. Too bad you jump to silly ass interpretations.

And finally, I did not say anything about the power of the doctors or the government to execute anyone or to withhold medical needs. You are so enthralled by your small government ideology that your reading and comprehension are obscured. In other words you are just inventing shit. Fucking pathetic of you.

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RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? - 11/26/2013 8:30:39 AM

vincentML

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Toysinbabeland

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: Toysinbabeland

Fr:
This mother opted to receive and love her child unconditionally.
That's her privilege as a mother, not to be questioned.

Toys, I think you may be giving too much credit to the notion that the mother acted through free will rather than the influence of hormones. How much choice did she really have? And as an aside, if anyone wishes to go down this trail, none of us may have as much free will as we like to credit ourselves. Maybe that is best left for another thread however.

Pffft.
Hormones don't make a mother in her position gush & beam.
She loves her baby, regardless of his condition.
It's a pity he's not an average child, but he's still hers to love.
Do you dare get between a mother and her child?

At birth, human babies are weak and require considerable care and protection – and it is oxytocin that influences behavior patterns in mothers to take care and respond towards their infants. Oxytocin, which is generally involved in promoting most social interactions, is related to skin-to-skin contact.

During pregnancy, the high levels of estrogen also increase the number of oxytocin receptors in the brain. Towards the end of pregnancy, these receptors makes the new mother respond with the required maternal behavior.

http://www.lovingyourchild.com/2010/09/parenting-newborns-chemistry-attachment/

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RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? - 11/26/2013 8:40:26 AM

vincentML

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quote:

When did the love of a mother for her child become socially unpalatable?

When a brain dead child is put on display. Not only socially unpalatable but delusional as well.

See the role of attachment hormones reported above.

quote:

What do you mean "call it" her child? The boy is her child. And if he can laugh and smile and knows his mom and grandmom, then he's evidently sentient in some way. Doesn't reality count for anything with you?

Brain stem reflex reactions subject to emotional interpretation by the family members.

Whether it counts for me is immaterial. I have suggested appointment of an advocate for the "issue" and a court hearing for institutionalization.

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RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? - 11/26/2013 8:48:39 AM

vincentML

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quote:

But society should pay for needles for drug addicts and abortions for "the less fortunate" who have the sense of moral obligation of a jack rabbit?

Government should force people to pay for the welfare of others?

Maybe not if we assume, as you seem to, that addiction is a moral failure or simply a failure of the Will. And maybe not if we assume, as you seem to, that adults and children who need help are simply malingering. I don't agree with your assumptions.

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RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? - 11/26/2013 8:53:16 AM

vincentML

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quote:

I think whether a woman carries a child to term is a personal decision.

Agreed.

quote:

Yes, I do believe this boy was born a human, yes with a "defect", but still a human being capable of giving and receiving during his lifetime however long or short. Just like anyone else.

Without a brain? I don't think so.

quote:

Who are we to judge, to decide? Who has a soul, who doesn't? Who should live and who shouldn't? Not my call.

That was simply a philosophical/theological question I tossed in to stir the pot a bit.

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RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? - 11/26/2013 9:38:51 AM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

When did the love of a mother for her child become socially unpalatable?

When a brain dead child is put on display. Not only socially unpalatable but delusional as well.

See the role of attachment hormones reported above.

Brain stem reflex reactions subject to emotional interpretation by the family members.

If he was brain dead, he wouldn't have brain stem reflexes. And there is more to the brain stem than you think.

Conjunction of the words "affective" and "brain stem" might seem contradictory to those who hold a dogmatic view of the lower brain as merely reflexive. But it is worth keeping in mind that almost every feeling of physical pleasure or pain felt by your forebrain must climb its way there through the brain stem. Much can happen to ascending signals on the way, and there is compelling reason to believe that brain stem sites themselves make important contributions to affective experience. Pain is clearly modulated in important ways by brain stem structures... Pleasures owe part of their hedonic impact to brain stem processing too, just as pains do. ~Source (p.36)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Doesn't reality count for anything with you?

Whether it counts for me is immaterial.

Apparently so.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 11/26/2013 9:41:33 AM >

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RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? - 11/26/2013 3:19:33 PM

marie2

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

I think whether a woman carries a child to term is a personal decision.

Agreed.

quote:

Yes, I do believe this boy was born a human, yes with a "defect", but still a human being capable of giving and receiving during his lifetime however long or short. Just like anyone else.

Without a brain? I don't think so

Yes without a brain, since the child is actually seen smiling. And his parents love him...hence he is giving, receiving, creating love and positivity. And that has immeasurable value, especially to his parents. Apparently you don't need a brain to experience certain bodyily functions. He breathed, he had a heart beat etc. Life really is in the brainstem itself. If you don't have an intact brainstem, you're dead. If you have a fucked brain or no brain but you have a functioning brainstem, you have life.

< Message edited by marie2 -- 11/26/2013 3:39:39 PM >

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RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? - 11/26/2013 4:38:05 PM

deathtothepixies

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quote:

ORIGINAL: marie2

his parents love him...hence he is giving, receiving, creating love and positivity. And that has immeasurable value, especially to his parents.

I know it is impossible to measure how much love he is giving or receiving, but given his limited abilities? functions? consciousness? is it not possible to say that he is giving a hell of a lot more than he is receiving and does that not imply a degree of selfishness on the part of the parents and others who want him to live for as long as possible?

I am going to switch my lights off before I get too far gone, but if I mistime that moment I sure as hell hope someone switches them off for me.

It seems as if this child is just going to have to sit there and wait until medical science can't do anything more for him

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RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? - 11/26/2013 8:15:50 PM

TheHeretic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Firstly, where do you gain the authority to direct me to do anything? Only in your dreams.

Secondly, the subject of question dodging was not aimed at you. I expected you would have the integrity to give me a direct answer. My mistake.

Thirdly, I stand by the protocol that you make your point and supply your own fucking support for it. No different from anyone else.

Fourthly, I never said anywhere that the government should have the power to abort the child. That was your construction of the OP. Too bad you jump to silly ass interpretations.

And finally, I did not say anything about the power of the doctors or the government to execute anyone or to withhold medical needs. You are so enthralled by your small government ideology that your reading and comprehension are obscured. In other words you are just inventing shit. Fucking pathetic of you.

First, I get my authority from God and Nature, Vincent, and the fact that I'm just a better human being than you are.

Second, if it wasn't directed at me, you should have left it out of the post. You didn't, so you get to have it shoved back in your face.

Third, we are in a gray area for the TOS of this forum, when it comes to Gabriel Fernandez. Do your homework assignment, and you'll understand.

Fourth, I never claimed you said it. I asked if you believed such a thing. It was asked without any assumption, though I can see where you had trouble with that, given your standard approach of assigning other posters values and positions you feel competent to address.

Finally, where the hell do you get off, whining that I'm putting words in your mouth, only to then insist that I have a, "small government ideology?" I don't. Your statement of where I'm coming from is a stupid lie. You might recall that I'm the guy who wants mandatory national service for all, and says that if we are going to put the government in charge of universal healthcare, the way to do it is by nationalization. I believe in a government limited to the powers granted to it by the Constitution, and obedient to the specific prohibitions of activities, as enumerated in the Bill of Rights. Small government and limited government are not at all the same thing. Some of those roles assigned to government are very large.

So getting back around to the topic of the thread, Vincent, are you of the opinion that the government should be able to compel an abortion in cases like this?

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RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? - 11/26/2013 8:39:43 PM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Yes, I do believe this boy was born a human, yes with a "defect", but still a human being capable of giving and receiving during his lifetime however long or short. Just like anyone else.
Without a brain? I don't think so.

Giving what? Feces?

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RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? - 11/26/2013 8:49:01 PM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
First, I get my authority from God and Nature, Vincent, and the fact that I'm just a better human being than you are.

Mine trumps yours, I get my authority from Gary the unicorn.

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RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? - 11/26/2013 9:01:49 PM

Moonlightmaddnes

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I had a stressful moment when they called me for a second ultra sound last year when I was pregnant. They assured me nothing was wrong and my baby was not cooperating very well and they just needed a better view. On one hand I was sure the doctor would not lie but on the other I had that nagging fear that maybe he didn't want to say anything until he was sure. Well if he suspected anything he was wrong she was fine.

Birth defects are not the only thing that can be devastating. My blood pressure was going up so I was on partial bedrest and I had to go to weekly monitoring during the last 8 weeks of my pregnancy. One visit she would be head down and the next she was breech. I was rolling my eyes but one of the ladies in a fet life group I am in was saying she was really worried for me and the baby that she was flipping like that. I shrugged it off, babies flip all the time. 3 weeks before my due date I went in for my regular doctor appt and my blood pressure was even higher so he scheduled an induction for 3 days later. The next day I had monitoring I still had to go to. I woke up knowing I did not feel right but I was sure I would get sent straight to L&D the last 3 appts so I blew it off. My blood pressure ended up being higher then the high risk ob was comfortable with so her and my regular OB decided to just admit me that day. I had not been long into the induction, the contractions were just getting painful and I had asked for an epidural early so I would not be in pain trying not to move with a huge ass needle in my back. Not long after that her heart rate started dropping. They were not worried at first but they were doing more and more interventions. First internal monitoring then they put some tube up there to help cushion her, then put me on oxygen, then had me flipping from side to side. This all occurred in a very short amount of time. The on call doctor had put her hand up the birth canal and was poking my baby at one point and then told me she was not handling labor very well and they were stopping my labor. They were doing some prep for surgery since everyone was pretty sure this was going to be a c section. Still everyone was calm so I was scared but not terrified. Then all hell broke loose. The doctor and 3 nurses ran in and were pulling tubes and unhooking things while another nurse yelled into the hall to page NICU and get everyone in the OR. They ran down the hall and I was put to sleep. I woke up and thank god my baby was ok but it was close. The doctor told me she was tangled in her cord and as labor progressed and she was pushed farther down it pulled my placenta free and I had an abruption. Curious I googled a few days after I got home and I saw story after story of babies that died during labor due to an abruption. I was a bit a bit emotional for a few months just thinking how easily it could have gone horribly wrong. She could have been deprived of oxygen long enough to due damage or have not survived at all.
Well this was longer then I intended but I know for those few minutes during labor I was terrified my baby was dying, then after she was safe in my arms and I learned how close she came to not surviving or being born healthy I have to say I am not sure what I would do. It is really easy to make a decision when I am not emotionally invested, but that sick feeling those few minutes running down the hall and as they were putting me to sleep gives me pause.

< Message edited by Moonlightmaddnes -- 11/26/2013 9:06:10 PM >

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RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? - 11/26/2013 9:05:35 PM

TheHeretic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

Mine trumps yours, I get my authority from Gary the unicorn.

I'm happy to hear you found a fath-based system that is working for you, GotSteel. I can hardly keep track sometimes though. That isn't the unicorn cult where the priests got in trouble over the "sit and spin" thing, is it?

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RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? - 11/27/2013 1:06:32 AM

Just0Us0Two

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
How do you propose to "let" someone die who even without "intense medical intervention" nevertheless declines to cooperate? What should have been done? Withholding nourishment was suggested, but only a psychopath could argue that starving him to death would simply be "letting" him die. Got any better ideas for how to dispose of him without actually disposing of him?

I have to disagree with you about this to a degree. Unfortunately, sometimes withholding nourishment is exactly how people are allowed to die. It's fairly common actually. It's sick and twisted, but it's also the only way to allow someone to die without being accused of murder.

When my wife's cancer got too bad, she went on hospice. She was dying, and in a good deal of pain. She finally decided that she'd had enough and started refusing food. I had to watch and wait over a week as she slowly starved to death. I had plenty of narcotics on hand, it would have been a simple matter to give her enough to put an end to the pain, but then odds are I'd be in prison now. I even had to fight with a nurse who tried to insist that she be brought into the hospital and put on an IV.

So yes, according to the laws in place at present, drugging someone unconscious while they die of starvation and dehydration is normal. But giving them enough pain meds to end their suffering immediately is a criminal act and considered unethical.

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