RE: What influences world opinion on the US...does it mattter?

RE: What influences world opinion on the US...does it mattter? (Full Version)

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bluize -> RE: What influences world opinion on the US...does it mattter? (7/4/2006 6:00:42 PM)
excuse me for being ignorant but i'd like to say hello to every one here. i enjoy listening to every one of you. i finally got up the nerve to get on here and say something and am looking foreward to more conversations with all of you and maybe finding a nice Dominant Woman for a great relationship. also how do i get all the cool pics everyone has in there posts thank you

LTRsubNW -> RE: What influences world opinion on the US...does it mattter? (7/4/2006 6:16:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Level bluize, I have to disagree with you as regards the UN. It may fail, but I think the idea of nations working together is vital; we do need to get the corruption out, as well as the mamby-pamby hand-holding that allowed Cuba and Pakistan to be on the Human Rights council. Don't be naive. Put 100 billion dollars on the table, add into the mix that without Saudi oil our economy halts, add into it the issue of our allegiance to Israel and the fact that we don't have the option of recalcitrance and you very quickly realize that corruption is part of the policy that runs nations. The question isn't "how can we rid ourselves (the world) of corruption", but rather, how can we as a nation, moreover as a world leader take ours to the level that allows other nations to rule themselves, even as they might not understand what that means? Moreover, how can we ally ourselves with other nations such that when our financial ability to follow through (such as with Iraq, or Vietnam as examples) doesn't comport with our desire or intent....that the intent of democracy (if indeed that is the best plan) can be carried out? There was a man many years ago that said..."kids today, they have such unusual language, such odd clothing....it scares me to imagine that someday they'll take over the world...but I know that soon they'll be the conquering voices". That was Socrates. Nothing's changed in our world and Socrates is just one example among thousands to show that history, with all its nuance is just a mirror. Murder, mayhem and war are the norm. We all wish it were otherwise...but it's not. Every generation before us has wished that our elders had some sense. Every generation before us has wished that someone would wake up and realize that war is not conducive to growth. Spending our time wishing the human condition will change is wasteful. It is the human condition. It won't change in our lifetime, or in any other. As soon as peace is the norm, some faction will determine that they have been unjustly demoralized and demand retribution. What could change, however is our understanding of the benefits of war. No one could argue more effectively than if they argued that there are none. Someone once told me that Americans have an imperialist attitude as to the world. I don't believe that's true. I believe our leaders do, but I don't think you and I do. Our parents, in the 60's believed they could change the world. I think they were right...they were just off a few generations. It starts with acceptance (and yes, there are some who simply do not understand this concept...and therein lies the ongoing saga of why war exists and why it will continue long after we're gone).

Level -> RE: What influences world opinion on the US...does it mattter? (7/4/2006 6:26:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LTRsubNW quote: ORIGINAL: Level bluize, I have to disagree with you as regards the UN. It may fail, but I think the idea of nations working together is vital; we do need to get the corruption out, as well as the mamby-pamby hand-holding that allowed Cuba and Pakistan to be on the Human Rights council. Don't be naive. Put 100 billion dollars on the table, add into the mix that without Saudi oil our economy halts, add into it the issue of our allegiance to Israel and the fact that we don't have the option of recalcitrance and you very quickly realize that corruption is part of the policy that runs nations. The question isn't "how can we rid ourselves (the world) of corruption", but rather, how can we as a nation, moreover as a world leader take ours to the level that allows other nations to rule themselves, even as they might not understand what that means? Moreover, how can we ally ourselves with other nations such that when our financial ability to follow through (such as with Iraq, or Vietnam as examples) doesn't comport with our desire or intent....that the intent of democracy (if indeed that is the best plan) can be carried out? There was a man many years ago that said..."kids today, they have such unusual language, such odd clothing....it scares me to imagine that someday they'll take over the world...but I know that soon they'll be the conquering voices". That was Socrates. Nothing's changed in our world and Socrates is just one example among thousands to show that history, with all its nuance is just a mirror. Murder, mayhem and war are the norm. We all wish it were otherwise...but it's not. Every generation before us has wished that our elders had some sense. Every generation before us has wished that someone would wake up and realize that war is not conducive to growth. Spending our time wishing the human condition will change is wasteful. It is the human condition. It won't change in our lifetime, or in any other. As soon as peace is the norm, some faction will determine that they have been unjustly demoralized and demand retribution. What could change, however is our understanding of the benefits of war. No one could argue more effectively than if they argued that there are none. Someone once told me that Americans have an imperialist attitude as to the world. I don't believe that's true. I believe our leaders do, but I don't think you and I do. Our parents, in the 60's believed they could change the world. I think they were right...they were just off a few generations. It starts with acceptance (and yes, there are some who simply do not understand this concept...and therein lies the ongoing saga of why war exists and why it will continue long after we're gone). *I wasn't talking about ridding the world of corruption; I was talking about the UN. Not likely* to happen, but it's possible.** The world advances, then falls back, like a tide. Things are better now for more people than at any time in history, which of course is not to say all is hunky dory. I am far from naive, but I see no reason to set my hope aside. Yet.

LTRsubNW -> RE: What influences world opinion on the US...does it mattter? (7/4/2006 6:41:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LTRsubNW I am far from naive, but I see no reason to set my hope aside. Yet. We agree.

popeye1250 -> RE: What influences world opinion on the US...does it mattter? (7/4/2006 10:59:29 PM)
I agree that Bush is a big part of the problem. As for GTMO we have held prisoners for indefinate periods during WW2, Germans and Japanese. These people in GTMO aren't even covered under the Geneva Conventions anyway. And, they are so dangerous that they probably should never be let go! I say use blow torches and ball bats on them then take them out back and shoot them in the back of the head. Keep the Press out of it. Those Al Qeada demons cannot be changed, cured or converted. How would you feel if we let a few go only to find out that they were involved in the next 9/11? As for this "World" crap I, like most Americans want out of the "UN". It is simply a GIANT money-sucking beauracracy that can no longer function. As an American Taxpayer I just don't want them getting any of my money anymore. As one respondant was saying about our slanted universities and colleges I agree, in most cases they are just islands of leftist-socialist radicalism as witnessed by that "Perfessor" Ward* TONTO* Churchill. Makes you want to tell the kids to do something else other than go to college! When ANYONE can get a degree what good are they? I notice that some people say the U.S. should "do" something about places like Dar Fur or whatever they call it. Why the hell should we? It has nothing to do with us. Hey Europe, how's about YOU GUYS step up to the plate on the next Iran and let the U.S. take a break? NATO is supposed to be a PARTNERSHIP; we have 140,000 Troops there and the rest of our "ALLIES" have what, 40,000 between them? I really don't think the U.S. should have gotten involved in Bosnia or Kosovo either. And for our trouble we STILL have about 500,000 so called "refugees" from Bosnia and Kosovo in the U.S.! Could someone tell me when those people will be repatriated back to Bosnia and Kosovo? According to the Geneva Conventions once the situation in a country has been stabilised, that country's refugees can be sent back to their home countries. There hasn't been any shooting in Bosnia and Kosovo for YEARS now! What's the holdup getting these people back to their countries? Also, could someone explain to me why we STILL have U.S. Troops in S. Korea 54 years after the endo of that war but none on our border with Mexico where they're desperatly needed? I was in Donegal, Ireland when fuck face Clinton was "President". (I have dual American/Irish Citizenship.) Upon learning that I was from Boston one guy in a Pub said to me; "Hey Yank, did you vote for that Wanker Clinton? lol Since I've been to Ireland while Bush (Mr. Braindead) is President no-one has said anything to me about him. Go figure! I got the impression that the people in Ireland really didn't like Clinton despite what our pro-Clinton Press tells us. There is a statue of Clinton somewhere there and all the locals piss on it when they're walking home from the pub at night. Also the fact the we have Troops in more than 131 countries certainly doesn't help matters! We need to start getting them back into the U.S. When you think about it who really cares what people in foreign countries may "think" about the U.S.? I don't spend my days thinking about oh,....say Greece doing bad or good things. "Greece Tortures Prisoners!" "Who gives a shit?" I think a lot of that stuff is from the looney left trying to manipulate people. In Ireland they're much more worried about the cows getting loose than say GTMO. Most of them have never even heard about or know where GTMO is anyway. As for that Aba Gareeb or whatever it was I thought that was HILLARIUS! "Hey Dude, you're gettin' a Butt Pyramid!" Also, a lot of other countries (do) envy our wealth. All they know when it comes to the U.S. is "gimme, gimme, gimme." That's another thing that we need to tell OUR govt. to stop doing; Foreign Aid. It's really not part of the job description of OUR govt. to be doing that kind of thing! (Thankyou Marshall Plan!) And, if Foreign Aid worked so well the amounts would be going down every year not up, right? Too many people are making too much money from Foreign Aid! The Lobbyists on "K" street, big corporations, and the theives who hire the Lobbists and also Mercedes Dealers! Get a list of homeowners on the French Riviera and other wealthy areas. THAT'S where the foreign aid money goes! Even Putin bought a place there with U.S. TAXPAYER DOLLARS and nothing is said about it! That while Russia owes the U.S. $67 Billion. I wonder if OUR govt is even collecting the Vig on that money every week? One thing for sure that you can bank on; the U.S. Taxpayer is getting screwed royally! Are you guys aware that EVERY single country in the Carribean is getting "foreign aid?" Nope, I neither know nor care what people in foreign countries may be thinking about the U.S.

meatcleaver -> RE: What influences world opinion on the US...does it mattter? (7/5/2006 1:37:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bluize meatcleaver i would love to be mistaken and i will admit it when i'm proved wrong, but the facts are that france and germany helped put the weapons there and wanted more time to get them out. hence , give blix all the time he needs. I watched Chirac and Schroeder speaking in French and German on TV and that was not what they were saying. They were quite clear in saying they didn't believe Saddam had WMD and were hoping Blix could produce enough information to suggest he didn't. Though I readily accept both Germany and France don't have clean hands and did quite substantial arms business with Iraq and not wanting to disrupt business was probably one of their motivations.

pahunkboy -> RE: What influences world opinion on the US...does it mattter? (7/5/2006 4:47:40 AM)
I liked Clinton. I wish he could serve again. A balanced budget and teh largest economic peacetime economic expansion in history... sounds good to me.

popeye1250 -> RE: What influences world opinion on the US...does it mattter? (7/5/2006 10:58:36 AM)
Pa. Hunk, yeah, Bill was good for the economy! BILL GATES! It really didn't matter who was President during the 90's, the economy was going to do well anyway because of all the Internet/ computer stuff. And as for a balanced budget of course you can have a balanced budget when you raise taxes to the highest level in the history of the country! As you can probably tell from my postings I don't like either the Republicans or Democrats. I fit in more to The Constitution Party's ideas. Damn, we had two DUDS in a row both from "Yale"! Yale seems to be a snake-pit of Global-Socialism. One thing about global-socialists is that all of their grandiose ideas ALWAYS involve U.S. Taxpayer Dollars! Well, I certainly won't be voting for any candidate who went to "Yale". Must be something in the water up in Connecticut!

FangsNfeet -> RE: What influences world opinion on the US...does it mattter? (7/6/2006 4:10:43 AM)
To think, it was not to long ago when the French had complaints and riots about the Americans who moved/imigrated over there and took away jobs.

philosophy -> RE: What influences world opinion on the US...does it mattter? (7/6/2006 6:35:23 AM)
"As for this "World" crap I, like most Americans want out of the "UN"........I notice that some people say the U.S. should "do" something about places like Dar Fur or whatever they call it. Why the hell should we? It has nothing to do with us.............As for that Aba Gareeb or whatever it was I thought that was HILLARIUS!.............. I neither know nor care what people in foreign countries may be thinking about the U.S." the original OP wondered why americans seemed to be disliked.....the sad habit of some americans to identify as American first and human second may have something to do with that. Now, many will disagree and say sommat along the lines of 'other countries put themselves first...national interest isn't a bad thing'.....which is fair enough, but no other country that i am aware of treats nationalism as if it were a religion.

caitlyn -> RE: What influences world opinion on the US...does it mattter? (7/6/2006 7:18:54 AM)
Marcus Aurelius wrote: "One sad consequence of being an empire, is that occasionally you are required to act like one." The United States has made mistakes in foreign policy, but has likewise stood tall against popular opinion, and gained positive outcomes ... for instance in the Balkans. It's foolish, in my view, to look at mistakes, and use that as justification for isolationism. It's equally foolish to look at success and expect that as the inevitable result of any action we take. It's easy to be an armchair quarterback with perfect 20/20 hindsight and make commentary on every mistake that is made. With the advent of mass media, we have legions of people that style themselves a modern day Procopius, who always had intelligently critical "views" of every decision made, without taking into account that he made his views based on information that was not available at the time the actual decision was made. I don't believe that Americans are overly nationalistic. What I believe is that Americans are frustrated by constant criticism by those that have no better alternative to offer. The current conflict in Iraq is a good example. Clearly it was a mistake, and just as clearly most of our European friends told us such. These same European friends, just a few years earlier, advised doing nothing in the Balkans. I think it's also fair to admit that Europeans have a bit of a "do nothing" foreign policy history, that has not exactly served us well in the past. Being a power will never be easy ... but what it easy, is taking blind shots at any decision made by a power. Such is life.

meatcleaver -> RE: What influences world opinion on the US...does it mattter? (7/6/2006 8:02:03 AM)
I think many European countries have a largely 'do nothing' foreign policy because in the past we DID do something and had a habit of doing the wrong thing like the US does today. It's not enough to want to do the right thing, sometimes what we think is the right thing is the wrong thing. Now thankfully, we don't have the power to do something or not too much, though France and Germany would like to unify and integrate the European economy, military and the armements industry so Europe can project the strength of a unified power. My feelings are the same as many Europeans, hell no! A common defence and a common economy but no projection of a unified European military power outside Europe. We have had enough strife on this continent and when you project power you find bogeymen because you are looking for bogeymen. Europe was paralysed somewhat over the Balkens conflict, mainly for historical reasons. The Balkens provided the spark for WWI and with east Europe still being in a state of flux, no one wanted to light a fire by mistake. However, Europe stayed out of the Korean because it was still suffering and tired of conflict after WWII and Vietnam war because they were seen as post colonial wars and no one wanted to get involved in colonialism again in a period when we were withdrawing from colonial power. As for the Roman Empire. The barbarians the Romans saw as uncivilised were far more civilised than the Romans. The barbarians didn't go around committing genocide and boasting about killing 50,000 people in a day. Rome was a monster. Great engineers, great poets, artists and chroniclers but still a monster. When the Goths took Rome, they didn't sack it, when they didn't get their demands met they simply moved on to North Africa and occupied the bread basket of the Roman Empire. Arrogance was the undoing of Rome.

caitlyn -> RE: What influences world opinion on the US...does it mattter? (7/6/2006 9:13:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver As for the Roman Empire. The barbarians the Romans saw as uncivilised were far more civilised than the Romans. The barbarians didn't go around committing genocide and boasting about killing 50,000 people in a day. Rome was a monster. Great engineers, great poets, artists and chroniclers but still a monster. When the Goths took Rome, they didn't sack it, when they didn't get their demands met they simply moved on to North Africa and occupied the bread basket of the Roman Empire. Arrogance was the undoing of Rome. This is perhaps the most radical oversimplification yet posted on Collarme. [;)] I won't even go into the inaccuracies. Anyone worth discussing them with, has already spotted them. [:D]

meatcleaver -> RE: What influences world opinion on the US...does it mattter? (7/6/2006 9:43:46 AM)
If one writes a thesis it won't get read but Rome was more ruthless than any of its enemies. Hannibal failed because he was not ruthless enough, Rome succeeded because it had no qualms about treading the face of its enemies into the dirt. Rome did commit genocide in Dacia and all for gold. The Germans under Herman defeated Rome because they didn't want to become part of the Empire. Rome went back six years later and butchered thousands of women and children purely for revenge. Julius Ceasar was happy to slaughter 50,000 Gauls in a day just to show them who was boss. Yes, Rome acted like an empire, it was happy to slaughter for its own engrandisement. Now tell me of any barbarians that did to Rome what Rome was happy to do to its enemies? Actually, the origins of English democracy came from the so called barbarians and not from Greco-Roman culture which wouldn't have recognized democracy if it bit it on its arse.

philosophy -> RE: What influences world opinion on the US...does it mattter? (7/6/2006 9:47:58 AM)
"I don't believe that Americans are overly nationalistic. What I believe is that Americans are frustrated by constant criticism by those that have no better alternative to offer." fair enough, but how does that square with a significent number of people who say things like "I notice that some people say the U.S. should "do" something about places like Dar Fur or whatever they call it. Why the hell should we? It has nothing to do with us"? If the tragedy there involved US citizens then it would be a priority.......as they are not americans then it isn't.......therefore, american first, human second. Although on reflection the experience of New Orleans suggests that only rich americans can expect the state to care about their humanity.

caitlyn -> RE: What influences world opinion on the US...does it mattter? (7/6/2006 1:54:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: philosophy If the tragedy there involved US citizens then it would be a priority.......as they are not americans then it isn't.......therefore, american first, human second. Although on reflection the experience of New Orleans suggests that only rich americans can expect the state to care about their humanity. Simple logic shows the inaccuracy of that statement. Action in the Balkans had very little to do with American interests. The "Europe First" policy in the second world war, was actually contrary to the interests of the United States. As a matter of fact, it forced our hand, as actions in the Pacific, post May 8, 1945, tended to be attempts to keep the Soviets from war profiteering in China. To me, you are confusing political capital / political action ... for lack of will or desire to do something. This isn't excusing anything ... not at all. It's pretty shitty that U.S. foreign policy is so dependent on election politics ...but claiming that it's some sort of "America first, everyone second" sentiment by people in the United States, is a position that is past problematic. Don't you think that the majority of our 298 million citizens in the United States, wished the entire world lived in peace and harmony, where everyone had enough to eat, and all the wealth they would ever want? We are really sorry that we aren't able to provide that for the entire world. When you find the nation that can, please let us know. [;)]

caitlyn -> RE: What influences world opinion on the US...does it mattter? (7/6/2006 2:08:51 PM)
You seem to be able to draw a line in the sands of history and happily ignore everyone that happened before that time. Pre-Marian reform, Germanic and Gallic tribes had invaded and nearly depopulated the Roman Republic, countless times. You are also clearly inaccurate in your claims concerning Gothic activities in Rome. Alaric sacked Rome in 410AD, allowing six days of looting, killing and raping. Those happy little Vandals that set up shop in North Africa, returned to Italy in 455AD under Geisaric and devastated most of central Italy. Germanicus' "butchering" of Germanic tribes at the battle of the Weser river, doesn't take into account that it was done in response to the ambush in AD9 of Varus' legions. Oh, it's easy to say that the poor Germanic tribes were defending "their" homes ... but of course they didn't have such lofty ethics when they were taking that home from Gallic tribes a few hundred years earlier. There were no "nice guys" back then, and there are none now. That certain "barbaric" tribes didn't destroy Rome, is only the case because they were not strong enough to do so.

meatcleaver -> RE: What influences world opinion on the US...does it mattter? (7/6/2006 2:11:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: caitlyn We are really sorry that we aren't able to provide that for the entire world. When you find the nation that can, please let us know. [;)] Come on Caitlyn. Let's get back to your empire logic. The American Empire like every other empire exploits the weak for their raw materials. That is one of the reasons why Arabs are so anti-American. America has supported oppressive governments for its own ends. When I say 'every other empire' I mean every other empire, right from Rome up to and including the British Empire.

caitlyn -> RE: What influences world opinion on the US...does it mattter? (7/6/2006 2:34:40 PM)
We're arguing apples and apples. I'm not delight machine that thinks American shit doesn't stink ... but I'm also not playing the ultimate armchair quarterback, as if "shit happens" doesn't happen ... even to a superpower.

MistressDREAD -> RE: What influences world opinion on the US...does it mattter? (7/6/2006 2:46:23 PM)
quote: RE: What influences world opinion on the US...does it mattter? This Country has done something that no other County has been successfull in doing, Thats have a civil war that ended in peace of the whole Country and a comming together of all people of diverse everything. Its not the current President who gives the Country any bad face because those of Us not from the US know He is only a temporary Person in Power unlike the Jihads or Cartels that will rule for generations with violence and terror and if He is not doing well for the People of the Country they will see to it that He is OUTTA THERE. Jelousy would be a word that I would think of first in how People feel about America. Because basically They cannot have the Freedoms We have enjoyed here or are not able to get to the Country to enjoy Them and must suffer the fates that are presented to them where they live. Ive traveled all over the world in war times and peace times. And those who fight against the Push of the US on the World for better lives for all people of the world would get it real fast if the US up and closed all its boarders as many places do to all people of the world and shut off the funding to the world to level the economies of so many other countries and contenents not to mention stop feeding the world which is in dire straights in many large countries right now to get their own people fed and watered with just the basics to live and thrive much less have a leval of life living that is any where equal to what every person who enters the USA lives with. Bush is Bush and He was who He was and how He was befor He ever gained the Presidency and those who bitch moan and complain about Him never did their home work about Him befor voting for Him to gain office and thats My bottom line take on that issue however for every Bush or Clinton or any other US President who has made the Country embarrused in some kind of way due to Their actions and choices as President can concider that We as a people of the world are not stupid and when We wake up in uganda or pakistan or korea or haiti or anyone of a million other places its not the President or TV or a Car or even a House or a job We think about but how We can get a cup full of that bag of grain that says USA on it or Red Cross on it Or Big name Companys like Microsoft and Bill Gates and Warren and others who make the world livable in todays socieites across the world in the name of the American People. Thats what the every day person in other lands sees. quote: Most people envy our lifestyle. They also seem to think we are arrogant for believing that our country is the best. It doesn't matter whether we are liked by the rest of the world because we are the best. Most people of the world have no clue what Our lifestyle here is like and can only wake up to what they live every day and work towards making that a better life. This is why many times religion and left wing fanatics teach that such living is evil because they know it is a life that all would want to have and enjoy and their countries and leaders simply cannot provide such things that America conciders a nessisity. Its only the haves of any Country thats oppressed that know about the world at large and press down on those have nots to continue to provide them with the nessisities they need from theim to keep their lifestyle in the same conforts that all Americans enjoy with the majority going with out even the basics to living life daily. Its a wise move I feel when the President takes all the wars to the Countries they are in and tempts democracy and a steel hand for an end of such termoil with out it finding its way to the US shores. We've had a very VERY small taste of what every day life is for the majority of the world with 911 and I dont think I for one wanna have to live such a life here, Its why I came here in the first place to enjoy peace on an international level and live. JMO

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