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RE: ADDICTS - 12/15/2013 9:04:46 AM

TheHeretic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Our 'free will' is a illusion.

Skipping the far broader implications of this position, and keeping it within the context of addiction, then what is the point of having any drug policy or rehabilitation services whatsoever?

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to vincentML)

Post #: 261

RE: ADDICTS - 12/15/2013 11:20:55 AM

Charles6682

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I'm so glad people on here aren't Doctor's. Just for the record, there are other model's of treatment for substance abuse besides just the 12 step model. There's SMART recovery, which I've used and is based more on science. And geez, there actually is medications for alcoholics and addicts too. I've done all my own research and I've heard it all. The disease theory, how AA is a cult and whatever else one can cough up. Read Rational Recovery, he really hate's AA. Some people can jump on that bandwagon too. I really don't care what the reason's are. I don't care to drink booze, simple as that. But I do appericate science and health, which is why I've researched this myself. Seriously, true substance abuse is a form of mental illness itself, whether someone wants to admit it or not. I knew my drinking was out of hand and I eventually stopped. Not the first time but eventually in due time. NO burning bush, no light from the sky. I was just simply done.

The disease theory or concept is still a debate. But overall, the science seem's to back up the fact that addict's or whatever term you want to use, brain's do function differently. Substance abuse disorders in general are the one disorder that people outside of recovery don't care for. Clearly, a lot of biased misconceptions. Dam, I thought this debate was settled decades ago but I guess not. Personally, I do what work's best for me and I could care less what the "Earth is flat" crowd has to say without any true concrete fact's. I get drunks are a-holes. A very good reason why I quit. But a lot of these people are people who do need serious help. It is a form of sickness when it impact's someone's entire life. Disease or not, to me, that is insanity.

< Message edited by Charles6682 -- 12/15/2013 11:23:07 AM >

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(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 262

RE: ADDICTS - 12/15/2013 12:10:17 PM

Charles6682

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From: Saint Pete,FL
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Why is this thread in the Politics and Religion section and not the Health section? Since when did something as serious as addiction involve politics anyways? Except when a Politician uses alcoholism as some cheap excuse because they did something wrong. "O now I need treatment"! Those are the fakes abusing the system.

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Post #: 263

RE: ADDICTS - 12/15/2013 1:23:26 PM

Kana

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quote:

I'm so glad people on here aren't Doctor's. Just for the record, there are other model's of treatment for substance abuse besides just the 12 step model. There's SMART recovery, which I've used and is based more on science. And geez, there actually is medications for alcoholics and addicts too.

Nobody suggested otherwise.
Look, of course there are other methods. Some work better than others. None are even close to 100%.
Not even 12 step groups think they have a monopoly on the recovery market-their official position is that there are many paths, they just found one that works for them. Hell, early AA was designed as a last ditch process to be used when all other methods had been exhausted. It was seen as the final option, described in the literature as "revolutionary and drastic proposals." Essentially, the program was designed for people who had been utterly broken until they had two options, AA or the morgue.

Not coincidentally, AA had a much higher recovery rate then too :-)

In the years since,lots of other methods have come into being, with varying degrees of success and longevity.
Personally, I don't care what method an addict goes for. I think the key is that the sufferer finds the one that works for them and runs with it. Hopefully it changes their life for the better.

_____________________________

"One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die. "
HST

(in reply to Charles6682)

Post #: 264

RE: ADDICTS - 12/15/2013 3:14:22 PM

sheisreeds

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles6682

Why is this thread in the Politics and Religion section and not the Health section? Since when did something as serious as addiction involve politics anyways? Except when a Politician uses alcoholism as some cheap excuse because they did something wrong. "O now I need treatment"! Those are the fakes abusing the system.

Unfortunately the War on Drugs has made this a political issue. Even though substance dependence is in the DSM IV in the US there is not parity with other forms of mental illness. Getting insurance coverage for rehab can be next to impossible, while having the blues after your dog dies can get you insurance reimbursement to see a psychiatrist. Simple access to care has become a huge political issue.

Then add in things like drug courts. In many areas this is a very contested issue.

A lot of harm reduction modalities are even downright illegal, and cause public outcry when proposed even though there is research showing that these methods work.

Harm reduction refers to things like needle exchanges, and offering supervised spaces for IV drug use.

There is a great clinic in canada where the first floor is a medically supervised venue for IV users with a walk in counseling center. The second floor is a detox. They also offer rehab. It is a great model since there are no barriers to care. It gives people a chance to get comfortable with the idea of treatment and recovery. Every day they walk in for a clean needle and a safe space to use, they know they are in the same place where they can get off the stuff.

One of the largest issues with providing substance abuse treatment are the policy barriers. Addiction causes enough barriers on it's own, so when policy adds more just forget it. Medically based help for addiction is very hard to find, to afford, and to obtain.

And with that keep in mind that for some who are addicted medical intervention is necessary. Alcohol withdraw can kill. Imagine calling your local inpatient detox only to be told to call next week to see when there are openings, only to call next week and be told they no longer take your insurance. I have made those calls with many people, and it is very frustrating.

_____________________________

~ s.

Oh my darling, give me reason
give me something to believe in

You need a spankin' baby!

(in reply to Charles6682)

Post #: 265

RE: ADDICTS - 12/15/2013 3:19:08 PM

Charles6682

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Well said and I agree. Whatever work's, work's. One size does not fit all and whatever work's for each person. The success rate really is hard to define. The treatment centers are probably the best bet as they keep records of this stuff. But AA, they don't keep track of how long John Doe stays sober. It's a support group, not a professional group. And AA will be the first to say that too. I give AA credit for opening the door to so many people and for bringing alcoholism to the light of society. Before AA came around, there were a few temperant movements but their solution was to ban alcohol and history proved that to be an utter failure. AA actually talked about actual recovery from drinking. Ever since, there's a 12 step group for almost every addiction now and many other non-12 step methods. Rational Recovery even with all of it's AA bashing, wouldn't be around to bash AA, if AA wasn't around.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana

quote:

I'm so glad people on here aren't Doctor's. Just for the record, there are other model's of treatment for substance abuse besides just the 12 step model. There's SMART recovery, which I've used and is based more on science. And geez, there actually is medications for alcoholics and addicts too.

Nobody suggested otherwise.
Look, of course there are other methods. Some work better than others. None are even close to 100%.
Not even 12 step groups think they have a monopoly on the recovery market-their official position is that there are many paths, they just found one that works for them. Hell, early AA was designed as a last ditch process to be used when all other methods had been exhausted. It was seen as the final option, described in the literature as "revolutionary and drastic proposals." Essentially, the program was designed for people who had been utterly broken until they had two options, AA or the morgue.

Not coincidentally, AA had a much higher recovery rate then too :-)

In the years since,lots of other methods have come into being, with varying degrees of success and longevity.
Personally, I don't care what method an addict goes for. I think the key is that the sufferer finds the one that works for them and runs with it. Hopefully it changes their life for the better.

_____________________________

Charley aka Sub Guy

http://www.Facebook.com/SubGuy

https://Twitter.com/SubGuy6682

(in reply to Kana)

Post #: 266

RE: ADDICTS - 12/15/2013 3:25:17 PM

Kana

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Joined: 10/24/2006
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quote:

Unfortunately the War on Drugs has made this a political issue.

Point blank-If pushed, I'd be hard pressed to find an area of American life that the "War on Drugs" AKA modern Prohibition, hasn't warped and corrupted.
The decision to treat addiction as a crime instead of a health issue is just a small part of that much greater tragedy/travesty.

_____________________________

"One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die. "
HST

(in reply to Charles6682)

Post #: 267

RE: ADDICTS - 12/15/2013 3:36:43 PM

sheisreeds

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Joined: 7/8/2008
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Definitely, I think people forget you used to be able to order your heroine from a catalog and get it delivered to you in the mail.

The stigma, and cultural response to addiction is such a mess.

It doesn't help that mental health is not much better off in terms of stigma, understanding, treating people with dignity and humanely.

Most of the country still gets angry at people for depression for not being happy, and doesn't understand why people with paranoid schizophrenia don't take their meds.

Not surprising that many people still think, or demonstrate through their behavior that the opinion that's it is as easy to put down as it is to pick up.

Meanwhile many of them can't stop eating potato chips, or doughnuts, or exercise twice a week, or any number of other bad habits that they have.

_____________________________

~ s.

Oh my darling, give me reason
give me something to believe in

You need a spankin' baby!

(in reply to Kana)

Post #: 268

RE: ADDICTS - 12/15/2013 3:57:02 PM

vincentML

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Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Our 'free will' is a illusion.

Skipping the far broader implications of this position, and keeping it within the context of addiction, then what is the point of having any drug policy or rehabilitation services whatsoever?

It is an illusion because we have constrictions on our behavior. Mediating the brain damage caused by addiction removes some of the worst constrictions. Your star pitcher doesn't go back on the mound with his arm still in a sling. We medicate the schizophrenic so he can hopefully respond to psychiatric and social services.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 12/15/2013 4:00:05 PM >

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 269

RE: ADDICTS - 12/15/2013 4:09:57 PM

sheisreeds

Posts: 578
Joined: 7/8/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Our 'free will' is a illusion.

Skipping the far broader implications of this position, and keeping it within the context of addiction, then what is the point of having any drug policy or rehabilitation services whatsoever?

It is an illusion because we have constrictions on our behavior. Mediating the brain damage caused by addiction removes some of the worst constrictions. Your star pitcher doesn't go back on the mound with his arm still in a sling. We medicate the schizophrenic so he can hopefully respond to psychiatric and social services.

Ok the word of the day is neuroplasticity. Essentially the brain has the ability to rewire itself, sometimes in quite extreme ways, like in some stroke and cases of traumatic brain injury where important areas of the brain like those involving speech were destroyed, and later rewrote to another area of the brain.

And on top of the brain's ability to head add in that for many successful addiction recovery requires deep knowledge of self, healing and working through old issues, and other forms of wisdom that your average joe with an average life often doesn't even know exists.

Oh, and an article specifically on Neuroplasticity and Addiction!

And since you like TED talks, here is one on Neuroplasticity

_____________________________

~ s.

Oh my darling, give me reason
give me something to believe in

You need a spankin' baby!

(in reply to vincentML)

Post #: 270

RE: ADDICTS - 12/15/2013 4:11:22 PM

vincentML

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Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

There is a great clinic in canada where the first floor is a medically supervised venue for IV users with a walk in counseling center. The second floor is a detox. They also offer rehab. It is a great model since there are no barriers to care. It gives people a chance to get comfortable with the idea of treatment and recovery. Every day they walk in for a clean needle and a safe space to use, they know they are in the same place where they can get off the stuff.

Please have a look at the video I posted in the OP. You might be familiar with Dr. Gabor Mate'.

(in reply to sheisreeds)

Post #: 271

RE: ADDICTS - 12/15/2013 4:43:08 PM

Kirata

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From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Strange. I posted an answer to this and briefly saw that you had replied, but now both are gone. Can't imagine why. Basically, my answer was that there is more than biology to constrain our Will, and so we are not as free as we tell ourselves we are. Our 'free will' is a illusion.

I think the illusion is yours. In the post that disappeared, for example, you were talking about our choices being determined. You presented this as the reality of the matter, but if they are determined they are only metaphorically "choices". So you are conflating a metaphor with reality here. And if you want to try to sell that, a top hat and a pretty assistant would help.

K.

(in reply to vincentML)

Post #: 272

RE: ADDICTS - 12/15/2013 4:53:46 PM

vincentML

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Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

Ok the word of the day is neuroplasticity. Essentially the brain has the ability to rewire itself, sometimes in quite extreme ways, like in some stroke and cases of traumatic brain injury where important areas of the brain like those involving speech were destroyed, and later rewrote to another area of the brain.

And on top of the brain's ability to head add in that for many successful addiction recovery requires deep knowledge of self, healing and working through old issues, and other forms of wisdom that your average joe with an average life often doesn't even know exists.

Oh, and an article specifically on Neuroplasticity and Addiction!

And since you like TED talks, here is one on Neuroplasticity

Thank you. Really helpful articles and Ted Talk. More hopeful than the info I had. But isn't it scary how much damage can be done to the early developing brain!

(in reply to sheisreeds)

Post #: 273

RE: ADDICTS - 12/15/2013 5:07:17 PM

sheisreeds

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Not really. A lot of things in the TED talk you posted were grossly overstated in regards to the impact on development. My specialization in therapy is trauma. All the clients I have worked with show a great inner capacity to heal. And it isn't so much that crucial parts of the brain didn't develop, or are damaged. There are just some crucial missing connections and pieces. Once those pieces are gained everything sets right into place. While it is definitely hard work, and to reroute a bad pathway in the brain takes a lot of repetition. It is far from impossible work.

_____________________________

~ s.

Oh my darling, give me reason
give me something to believe in

You need a spankin' baby!

(in reply to vincentML)

Post #: 274

RE: ADDICTS - 12/15/2013 5:10:16 PM

vincentML

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Strange. I posted an answer to this and briefly saw that you had replied, but now both are gone. Can't imagine why. Basically, my answer was that there is more than biology to constrain our Will, and so we are not as free as we tell ourselves we are. Our 'free will' is a illusion.

I think the illusion is yours. In the post that disappeared, for example, you were talking about our choices being determined. You presented this as the reality of the matter, but if they are determined they are only metaphorically "choices". So you are conflating a metaphor with reality here. And if you want to try to sell that, a top hat and a pretty assistant would help.

K

Not so. The alternatives are very real to me if I am not aware that my choice is determined.

Metaphorical only to the observer traveling in a different time frame, Albert.

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 275

RE: ADDICTS - 12/15/2013 5:23:36 PM

vincentML

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sheisreeds

Not really. A lot of things in the TED talk you posted were grossly overstated in regards to the impact on development. My specialization in therapy is trauma. All the clients I have worked with show a great inner capacity to heal. And it isn't so much that crucial parts of the brain didn't develop, or are damaged. There are just some crucial missing connections and pieces. Once those pieces are gained everything sets right into place. While it is definitely hard work, and to reroute a bad pathway in the brain takes a lot of repetition. It is far from impossible work.

That's really wonderful. Happy to hear of your success. I was concerned about the fatalism in Dr. Montes presentation. He was so skeptical about resetting the dopamine "thermostat," if there is such a thing. And have you had success dealing with trauma that occurred intra-uterine, or in the precognitive phase of brain development as Dr. Merzenich suggested?

(in reply to sheisreeds)

Post #: 276

RE: ADDICTS - 12/15/2013 5:41:25 PM

TheHeretic

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From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles6682

Why is this thread in the Politics and Religion section

Because it gets used to push the totalitarian worldview, and the foolish notion that the default answer to every social ill is another government program. We've also covered religion a fair bit along the way.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to Charles6682)

Post #: 277

RE: ADDICTS - 12/15/2013 11:49:10 PM

Kirata

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Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Not so. The alternatives are very real to me if I am not aware that my choice is determined.

Ah, but you are aware. You have said so. Free will is an illusion. The metaphor isn't real to you. So what's it like, knowing that you have no free will? Obviously you are not responsible for anything. Obviously you deserve no credit for anything.

What's that leave?

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 12/15/2013 11:50:07 PM >

(in reply to vincentML)

Post #: 278

RE: ADDICTS - 12/16/2013 7:32:55 AM

vincentML

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Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Not so. The alternatives are very real to me if I am not aware that my choice is determined.

Ah, but you are aware. You have said so. Free will is an illusion. The metaphor isn't real to you. So what's it like, knowing that you have no free will? Obviously you are not responsible for anything. Obviously you deserve no credit for anything.

What's that leave?
K

Knowing my choices are determined by a myriad of precedents: genetic, development, prior choices, education, culture, etc., doesn’t necessarily mean I know in advance which road I will take. Only on reflection might I learn why the choice was inevitable, or I may never know.

If my choices are not determined by my personal history and the judgments I have developed then they are random. Where is the free will in randomness? If my choices are not determined by my personal history or if they are not random, then they are made by someone outside myself. Are they the will of god? I don’t think you want to go there. Is there a Me outside of me who makes my choices? Is Will a separate incorporeal entity?

I am responsible to the extent imposed by the morality in which my culture has shaped me. Some are compelled to act outside the limits of accepted morality. Does the pedophile freely choose to be a pedophile? Does the mass killer make a free choice? I think not. We call them sociopaths. They are not responsible. But we have to protect society from them.

If you believe free will is absolute then I take it you believe sexual preference and gender identity are freely chosen and can just as freely be reversed. If you identify as heterosexual male you can lickity split choose another road and become a gay female in your orientation tomorrow. But then switch back the following day. Would you say that’s easily done???

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 279

RE: ADDICTS - 12/16/2013 7:46:00 AM

vincentML

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Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles6682

Why is this thread in the Politics and Religion section

Because it gets used to push the totalitarian worldview, and the foolish notion that the default answer to every social ill is another government program. We've also covered religion a fair bit along the way.

In the past 40 years we have witnessed the tragically ineffective Big Government program called the War on Drugs. Do you wish that to continue? And if we recognize addiction as a personal medical ill would you prefer society refrain from lending assistance through public health resources as we do to cardiac patients, or to the mentally ill? Just curious on where your lines are drawn.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 280

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