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RE: ADDICTS - 12/11/2013 6:13:56 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline 		>Some of my folks are so severely traumatized and ingrained into addiction and all it involves I understand why even the idea of recovery is so hard to come by. Addiction often starts as a way to ignore the monster under the bed, only in to realize in the brief moments of sobriety and/or clarity that now there are monsters everywhere. A quick fix to a problem has now made the problem 10x worse.<

Or, are not even aware there is a monster under the bed. I can attest to not knowing the reasons for compulsive behaviors.

> Also, not everyone gets addicted. There is clearly some genetics, and/or potentially deeply trained behaviors involved.<

Perhaps some genetics, but study after study has shown the impact on development of early childhood experiences. Even prenatal events can take their toll. In either case, we can grow up unaware of the monster under the bed.


< Message edited by vincentML -- 12/11/2013 6:14:47 AM >

(in reply to sheisreeds)
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RE: ADDICTS - 12/11/2013 11:20:26 AM   
truckinslave


Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

I mean for fucks sake these people fucked up a guy so bad that they had him worshipping a rock.


Our position on that was that drugs, booze and his ego had him so fucked up when he arrived that he literally could not conceive of a power greater than himself. He, not us, endowed the rock with spiritual significance. It was created by him, not suggested to him.
AA served him so poorly that he died 20+ years sober, well after having played a substantial role in my own recovery.

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 222
RE: ADDICTS - 12/11/2013 11:28:00 AM   
truckinslave


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quote:

As I'm interpreting the story, the individual in question was told to get a higher power, so he created a symbol to serve the need, not an object of worship.


Literal or figurative? I myself am not sure. All I remember Mike saying about it- and humorously at that- is something like: "When I got here they told me to find a higher power, and that if I didn't have one I could either just use the group or invent one of my own. So I picked up a rock, and I told it that it was my higher power, and I prayed to it for over a year as my head cleared".

He was a fabulous sponsor for those who arrived reallllllly fucked up.
God, he had some stories to tell....

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 223
RE: ADDICTS - 12/11/2013 11:29:09 AM   
Charles6682


Posts: 1820
Joined: 10/1/2007
From: Saint Pete,FL
Status: offline 		I don't really talk about this often on a public forum but given the topic, I've quit drinking alcohol and yes, I used the help out there that is available. This nonsense about addicts being of weak will or lacks some sense of morality is BS. The science is already there. Some people's bodie's react differently to certain thing's. If I was a diabetic, I would take my medicine and not shove sweets down my throat. That's how alcohol effect's me. It does me no good and so, I did quit drinking. As for some of the fetish critics I've heard who say recovering alcoholics or addicts just use fetish as a substitute. Well actually, I am a far better sub and person in general when I don't drink. Anything can become an addiction, if not dealt with properly. Some people use 12 steps, some people don't use anything at all or use other form's of help. Addiction's are really OCD and addictive personality in general. But for the sake of booze, I'm glad I quit that. And I'm not to sit here and say other's shouldn't drink alcohol either. If someone drink's, more power to them. I just choose to simply not drink. I don't really need to explain why. I just feel better without it.

_____________________________

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http://www.Facebook.com/SubGuy

https://Twitter.com/SubGuy6682

(in reply to angelikaJ)
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RE: ADDICTS - 12/11/2013 11:29:40 AM   
truckinslave


Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

What do we do for them then?


Indeed. Care to answer your own question?

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 225
RE: ADDICTS - 12/11/2013 1:01:19 PM   
Kana


Posts: 6676
Joined: 10/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

Addiction's are really OCD and addictive personality in general.


Standard recovery dogma is that addiction is a threefold illness.
It has a spiritual component which manifests itself in extreme self-centeredness, what NA would call the triangle of self obsession.
It has a mental aspect in that the addict has what AA terms a"peculiar mental blind spot" when it comes to a drink or drug the addict is unable to recall with sufficient force the pain and the humiliation of prior bad experiences.More precisely, this manifests itself as an obsession of the type whereas the idea overrides any and all other ideas to the contrary.In laymans terms,once the idea of using enters the addicts mind, the train has jumped the tracks and it's gonna happen. This is the mental obsession.
If progressed far enough, it develops into the physical addiction, where the addict cannot function w/o the substance. In the case of alkies and junkies, withdrawal/going without can be fatal. Hard core junkies have a great term for this, after a while they don't talk about getting high, they call using getting well.

The general perception is that people sicken in that order,spiritually, mentally and then physically. They get well in obverse order. First they kick,then they put on some weight,maybe stop shaking all the time. After a while, they start to think straight from time to time. Then, they start to heal spiritually.

Personally,I think its a mental illness rooted in spiritual deficiencies.
I've never met an addict who wasn't ashamed.
Not guilty.
Ashamed
(There's a huge and critical difference between the two. Guilt is how one feels about their actions.Shame is how one feels about themselves as a being).
Never met one who didn't have a voice in his belly saying they were less than.
Never met one who in their heart of hearts didn't feel inadequate.
That's the root of addiction.
That leads to separation, fear, isolation, alienation, all those wonderful emotions that form the tree of addiction.
In turn, these turn into massive internal conflict, essentially a person engaging in World War Me, always at odds between their values/morals/beliefs/self-image/what they think they should be and how they should behave and their actions. This causes duality and that causes friction. This is where you get the old saying that an alcohol is just a drunk with a conscience.
For these people, mind and mood altering chemicals have a different effect than the way they hit normal people. For the addict, the drug shuts that conflict up.
Best way I ever heard it described is, "If you knew how I felt when I'm not using, you'd understand why I use."

Now where this comes from I dunno. Might be genetic. Might be psychological. Might be environmental (What? Grow up in an alcoholic house you grew up with secrets, fear, shame, hiding, whatever. People learn lots of stuff they never suspect they are in taking...but they do.Magnolia has a wonderful line in it,goes "We might be done with the past but the past isn't done with us."Grow up in an addictive household and it will certainly impact, mold and help form the personality)
Course, there's another potential cause.
Consider this.In modern America,something like 10% of the country is alcoholic. Another 10% are drug addicts,though I suspect those numbers contain some crossover (Pure 100 proofers are rare rare things these days. Most everybody in a meeting is an "and a")30-40% of the country uses some form of medication either as a mood stabilizer,sleep aid,mild tranquilizer or accelerant (think ritalin for ADHD)-meaning somewhere between 50-60% of our country needs to be fucked upon a regular basis to cohesively function within said society.
At what % do we stop blaming the individuals and start looking at the society?


< Message edited by Kana -- 12/11/2013 1:12:30 PM >

_____________________________

"One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die. "
HST

(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 226
RE: ADDICTS - 12/11/2013 4:23:31 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		Perhaps if you weren't too busy assigning non-existent positions to people, concocting lame insulting character insinuations, and just replying to my avatar, Vince, you'd be aware that I answered your question about how I think we could improve treatment options several pages back. I suppose that is far too much to expect.

As for you deciding you can characterize a character trait I discussed as an "illness," I suggest you go over to the health and safety forum, find a thread on extra large insertions, and apply the guidance you find there in putting your opinion back where it came from, and where it most certainly belongs.

Addicts are not some group you can lump together, and use to push whatever dumbass agenda you want to jerk off about. They, we, are individuals, with individual needs, individual circumstances, and individual paths to follow.



_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 227
RE: ADDICTS - 12/11/2013 4:58:16 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

Literal or figurative?



That's an odd thing about using symbolic acts and items to communicate with the subconscious parts of our minds, Truckinslave. It really doesn't matter. You absolutely can fake it until you make it.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 228
RE: ADDICTS - 12/12/2013 1:13:16 AM   
truckinslave


Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

I've never met an addict who wasn't ashamed....
Never met one who didn't have a voice in his belly saying they were less than.
Never met one who in their heart of hearts didn't feel inadequate.


Sometimes I resemble that remark even now.

quote:

If you knew how I felt when I'm not using, you'd understand why I use.


The reverse of that works pretty well for a while too....
Alcohol definitely started out as empowering.

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to Kana)
Profile   Post #: 229
RE: ADDICTS - 12/12/2013 7:45:58 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

What do we do for them then?


Indeed. Care to answer your own question?

I wish I could. Personally, I don't have the resources that society has. Unfortunately, we can't seem to decide how addiction should be characterized, whether the addict should be helped or punished.

(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 230
RE: ADDICTS - 12/12/2013 8:26:57 AM   
vincentML


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Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Perhaps if you weren't too busy assigning non-existent positions to people, concocting lame insulting character insinuations, and just replying to my avatar, Vince, you'd be aware that I answered your question about how I think we could improve treatment options several pages back. I suppose that is far too much to expect.

As for you deciding you can characterize a character trait I discussed as an "illness," I suggest you go over to the health and safety forum, find a thread on extra large insertions, and apply the guidance you find there in putting your opinion back where it came from, and where it most certainly belongs.

Addicts are not some group you can lump together, and use to push whatever dumbass agenda you want to jerk off about. They, we, are individuals, with individual needs, individual circumstances, and individual paths to follow.



Interesting how you and I always clash, Rich. You blame me and I blame you. Maybe that's not surprising behavior on our parts.

Kudos for your second paragraph, Rich. The most eloquent "fuck you" statement I have seen on these boards.

To answer your assertion in the third paragraph . . . There is ample evidence that addictions are a brain disease. Whatever their origins and whatever the addictive substance or behavior their brain chemistry has changed. They commonly end up with a deficiency of dopamine, an excess of stress hormones, and a weakening of the inhibiting and impulse control mechanisms of the prefrontal cortex. The open question is whether they can be treated pharmacologically or if that only makes their condition worse. It is also an open question whether these brain changes can be reversed or even modified. The individual differences you remark upon are manifestations of the same brain dysfunctions. It is these changes in brain chemistry and structure that make recovery so difficult and relapse so predictable.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 231
RE: ADDICTS - 12/12/2013 8:40:29 AM   
truckinslave


Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

we can't seem to decide how addiction should be characterized, whether the addict should be helped or punished.


We have decades of societal experience, and our own life experiences (including as parents in most cases) proving the idea that we should support those behaviors we find desirable, and not support those behaviors we find undesirable.

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 232
RE: ADDICTS - 12/12/2013 8:46:41 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

we can't seem to decide how addiction should be characterized, whether the addict should be helped or punished.


We have decades of societal experience, and our own life experiences (including as parents in most cases) proving the idea that we should support those behaviors we find desirable, and not support those behaviors we find undesirable.


We don't apply that wisdom to schizophrenic behavior however. We treat the schizophrenic. Why the difference?

Then of course, societies used to burn witches, didn't they? So much for the wisdom of common experience.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 12/12/2013 8:50:47 AM >

(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 233
RE: ADDICTS - 12/12/2013 8:59:57 AM   
truckinslave


Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

We treat the schizophrenic. Why the difference?


We treat both.
There are drugs available for the schizophrenic. There are treatment programs available to the alcoholic....

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 234
RE: ADDICTS - 12/12/2013 9:07:15 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

We treat the schizophrenic. Why the difference?


We treat both.
There are drugs available for the schizophrenic. There are treatment programs available to the alcoholic....

Yes, one we treat medically. The other we treat as pariah.

(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 235
RE: ADDICTS - 12/12/2013 9:17:51 AM   
angelikaJ


Posts: 8641
Joined: 6/22/2007
Status: offline 		I think you are confusing society with medical establishment.

In the medical establishment both are seen as medical issues as they both fall under the umbrella of "Behavioral Health".

In the medical model addiction is seen as a disease.

In society, even some mental illness is seen as a weakness of will.
And it is hard for people to accept that addiction is not a matter of just having adequate self control or just not using in the first place.

_____________________________

The original home of the caffeinated psychotic hair pixies.
(as deemed by He who owns me)

http://www.collarchat.com/m_3234821/tm.htm

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQjuCQd01sg

(in reply to vincentML)
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RE: ADDICTS - 12/12/2013 9:26:19 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: angelikaJ

I think you are confusing society with medical establishment.

In the medical establishment both are seen as medical issues as they both fall under the umbrella of "Behavioral Health".

In the medical model addiction is seen as a disease.

In society, even some mental illness is seen as a weakness of will.
And it is hard for people to accept that addiction is not a matter of just having adequate self control or just not using in the first place.

Thank you. You make a good point. However, medical science seems to have a weak voice in the issue. Look at the response I received to posting a talk by a medical doctor in the OP. Pitiful.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 12/12/2013 9:27:11 AM >

(in reply to angelikaJ)
Profile   Post #: 237
RE: ADDICTS - 12/12/2013 9:31:47 AM   
truckinslave


Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
Status: offline 		I've never seen anyone treated as a pariah as part of their treatment.

I have often seen both alcoholics and the mentally ill treated as pariahs when they behave outrageously and/or criminally.

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 238
RE: ADDICTS - 12/12/2013 9:43:20 AM   
kalikshama


Posts: 14805
Joined: 8/8/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

We treat the schizophrenic. Why the difference?


We treat both.
There are drugs available for the schizophrenic. There are treatment programs available to the alcoholic....


My brother has a host of mental illnesses, including schizoaffective disorder. I have much more sympathy for him than the alcoholics in my life.

(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 239
RE: ADDICTS - 12/12/2013 9:47:28 AM   
truckinslave


Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
Status: offline 		FWIW, so do I....

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to kalikshama)
Profile   Post #: 240
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