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RE: ADDICTS - 11/28/2013 2:28:45 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

FR - A little food for thought, before we set out on the road to the family feast.

Just as with the argument that people who commit monstrous crimes aren't really responsible for what they do, because mommy didn't hug them enough, the claim that addicts are simply the products of poor parenting or a stressful environment is an insult to those who come from nightmare backgrounds, yet go on to live decent, productive, and happy lives.

No matter what form the addiction takes, be it a substance or a behavior, there is always an element of personal choice in the mix, both on the way in, and in finding the way out.


Oh, if only we could all be as certain and absolute in our knowledge about the genesis of events in other peoples' lives.

You so dismissively brush aside the experience of a doctor who has toiled ten years treating addicts and listening to their stories which include in almost every case tales of abuse from their Explicit memory recall. You so easily discount the several years of Implicit emotional memory during early infancy when the brain is developing and laying down tracks so abundantly. And what is offered instead naught but some feeble assurance that there is "always an element of personal choice in the mix." Did that come directly from Nancy Reagan I wonder? Just say "no" then?

So what is it about the survivors of abusive or stressful childhoods? Do they just heroically or magically shake it off and go on to lead productive lives? Maybe it is not so easy as you think, Rich. That is Dr. Mate's point I think. The observation that there is a cohort of addicts who fail to survive is not an insult in anyway to those who did.

Here is testimony form one adult survivor:

Adult survivors of child abuse have only two choices in life, either they learn to control their behavior or they continue to remain a victim, passing on bad behavior in a continuing vicious cycle. Controlling yourself can be easier said then done as your self-concept has been tattered, and quite often you are made to feel like the abuse was completely brought on by your own actions. The majority abusive parents were themselves abused in some way as a child. These parents hit or neglect their children because they were hit or neglected, and they become inadequate parents because of the inadequate parenting they received, but this in no way means that all parents who were abused as children become abusive parents.

Breaking the cycle of abuse is strictly up to each individual, and this starts by coming to terms with the abuse you suffered as a child, whether it was verbal, physical, sexual or emotional, you must face it by talking to others in group counseling, therapy, or the abuser themselves. When adult survivors get deeply in touch with their own pain, and better understand it clearly, they no longer want to take it out on their own children.

The damaging effects of child abuse witnessed in adults is that no one truly escapes childhood abuse unscathed, although many survivors of abuse are highly competent in their professional and personal lives they still secretly compensate for the adverse effects of an abusive childhood. Some adults appear to be resilient to abuse, becoming overachievers until their childhood catches up with them. This normally comes by way of facing the abuser, and whether the person who inflicted the abuse is willing to admit to what they have done. Often, the abuser passes away without any type of apologies or closure for the abused child who is now an adult, leaving the abused angry, confused and full of self doubt and questions as to why it happened.

SOURCE

Furthermore, there was no discussion in this thread about responsibility for crimes committed or lives wasted until you brought it in, Rich. The discussion was about cause and treatment. Clearly, the current societal model for how we regard the addicted and mentally ill is a grotesque failure for treatment except it allows the temporarily healthy and strong superiors to have targets to scorn and condemn as weaklings.

If we plant a tree in arid soil lacking much nourishment we would not expect it to grow tall and straight and unscathed. It is the same with humans I think.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
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RE: ADDICTS - 11/28/2013 2:32:38 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie

FR

It is simply a superstitious denial of science to claim that anyone makes the 'choice' to have, or not have opiate receptors, etc. in their physiological makeup. Nor do people make up their own minds about where tolerance levels lie.  Other people may feel smug in the certainty that they are a superior breed to addicts, but they aren't.

What people can influence, is their exposure to the addictive item, and how they handle the consequences that occur after that.

Uh yes. Some people think they can separate their minds from their biology and have unfettered free will.

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RE: ADDICTS - 11/28/2013 2:41:14 PM   
vincentML


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ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

IMO.. the best thing parents, teachers, etc can do is teach kids to think independently and not succumb to pressure to try drugs (including cigs, booze, etc) in the first place (if that shite is so great then why the need to pressure someone into using it?).. I am not talking about the "just say no" stuff, but teach them to think first, evaluate the pros and cons of any situation or decision with a clear & honest head/mind and that will help them (imo) to decide on their own that the risk of addiction isn't worth "trying it" even once..

That hasn't worked out too well it seems. Teens are not at an age where they will think independently and outside the group to which they wish attachment. Biologically, the inhibiting prefrontal cortex is not completely developed until around age 25, give or take.

quote:

I cant say what is the best way to deal with addicts once they are addicted.. but I think that is up to them to have hit bottom and finally decided to quit for good, and they have to try different things to help them reach that goal.. as has been said, for some it might be taking up yoga or whatever release to control stress, for others it could be creating a new life with new friends, new home, new job, etc.. to find what works for each one, can be hit and miss, trial and error until they find what works for them..

The point raised in the video is that 'rock bottom' is a myth for too many and they would rather die than face life or face themselves.


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RE: ADDICTS - 11/28/2013 2:45:38 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: angelikaJ

FR

There does not seem to be a universal answer that explains addiction.
There are heroin addicts who claim that nicotine is the hardest substance for them to get off of, and there are casual smokers who can stop and start smoking at will.

Suggesting that addiction is purely driven by will or purely by genes discounts the experiments with animals.
Exposure to the addictive substance alters the neuro-chemistry and then changes the way the brain is wired.

Methamphetamine changes dopamine receptors.
Ecstasy/molly changes serotonin.

Some people have issues with opioid addiction/dependency and some people don't.
Are the people who don't automatically better people than those who do or will with repeated exposure?

http://www.bnl.gov/newsroom/news.php?a=11160

QFT. The opiates like heroin cling to the endorphin receptors while nicotine and other stimulants are at the dopamine receptors. Thanks.

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RE: ADDICTS - 11/28/2013 2:49:20 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

The war on drugs just makes it more expensive, thus more lucrative, thus more violent. It's turned out to be a dead end strategy for dealing with the problem. Some people advocate legalization, although some are dead set against legalization, so there seems to be a political impasse somewhat. So, just like a lot of other political problems lately, this is another that doesn't get solved. But I think there might be some room for compromise.

Not an impasse, Zonie. The war on drugs advocates are totally kings of the hill. Not many pols have the courage to stand against them despite the waste of money and failure of Prohibition. Just my speculation.

(in reply to Zonie63)
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RE: ADDICTS - 11/28/2013 9:52:52 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Oh, if only we could all be as certain and absolute in our knowledge about the genesis of events in other peoples' lives.

You so dismissively brush aside the experience of a doctor who has toiled ten years treating addicts and listening to their stories which include in almost every case tales of abuse from their Explicit memory recall. You so easily discount the several years of Implicit emotional memory during early infancy when the brain is developing and laying down tracks so abundantly. And what is offered instead naught but some feeble assurance that there is "always an element of personal choice in the mix." Did that come directly from Nancy Reagan I wonder? Just say "no" then?

So what is it about the survivors of abusive or stressful childhoods? Do they just heroically or magically shake it off and go on to lead productive lives? Maybe it is not so easy as you think, Rich. That is Dr. Mate's point I think. The observation that there is a cohort of addicts who fail to survive is not an insult in anyway to those who did.



Oh for the amazing internet, Vince, where you can watch a little video, and suddenly become an expert in a subject you seem wholly unfamiliar with, with Dr. Mate as your guru.

I'm curious why you find this individual, in a field overflowing with individuals who are equally self-confident (righteous?) in their model, so particularly credible. Does he resonate with your knee-jerk emotional response? Is he the first drug treatment Dr. you've ever heard speak, and you feel like you've discovered something none of the rest of us have any awareness of? 10 years toiling with addicts? Dude, I've been around, and among, addicts a lot longer than that. Just the best man at my wedding has spent twice that amount of time high.

How various drugs interact with neurochemistry is something that has been studied for decades. He didn't say one new thing in his little chat down in Rio.

Understand something, Vincent. I don't talk about addicts, or people who didn't draw a stable, loving, middle-class two parent home in the birth lottery as They, as you seem to be assuming here. When I talk about the element of personal choice, I'm talking about choices I've made, choices important people in my life have made, about people I love who keep making the dumb ones.

What's your baseline of experience with drugs and addicts, Vince? It can't be Breaking Bad, or you'd at least know what a tweaker is. Surely there is a bit more than having watched a TED? Maybe you should add the videos of that Canadian crackhead mayor to your viewing queue?

I don't know whose posts you may be getting confused with mine here, Vince. Nancy Reagan? The appropriate two word response to that reference is apparently a Mod no-no at present, but I reckon you can puzzle it out if you try. First word starts with an "F." I've been preaching legalization, and damning the idiocy of the war on drugs, for decades. I also think we need to smash the dominant paradigm of the AA model of addiction and recovery. Why the hell do we continue with a program that boasts an 85% failure rate?

The chemistry is all very interesting, as it was when I first started needing to understand it 20 odd years ago, but it's only one component of a much larger picture. It tells us about the processes in play during detox/withdrawal. It gives us insight into the root of the cravings. It most certainly does not tell us why one recovering addict can say no to a rail put in front of their nose, and another will take the straw.


But here, for any who make it this far, is a question for any who insist that the addict is helpless and powerless, and that talking about individual choice is just a personal attack on the users. How do you account for functional addicts? What is the essential difference between a guy who smokes pot at work all day, and the one who does it in a park, or the guy who gets a case of beer at the Quicky-Mart every afternoon, and one who comes in and buys two cans? If choice plays no role, why are the majority of addicts able to pretty much keep their shit together?

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to vincentML)
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RE: ADDICTS - 11/28/2013 11:34:09 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

But here, for any who make it this far, is a question for any who insist that the addict is helpless and powerless, and that talking about individual choice is just a personal attack on the users. How do you account for functional addicts? What is the essential difference between a guy who smokes pot at work all day, and the one who does it in a park, or the guy who gets a case of beer at the Quicky-Mart every afternoon, and one who comes in and buys two cans? If choice plays no role, why are the majority of addicts able to pretty much keep their shit together?


I am not sure that yours and Vincent’s positions are as far apart that the adversarial tone of your post implies. I suspect that you would both agree that choice is a permanent element in this particular equation. The differences seem to me to revolve around just how central that element of choice is.

From my observation, and from what my friends tell me, it seems clear that there is a choice about using. I am speaking mainly about narcotics as that is the area I am most familiar with - however I suspect it’s pretty much the same no matter the addictive substance or behaviour. Choices to use or not use, choices to continue using or not using, choices to seek help to end addictions or not to, choices to bust a recovery or not to ..... Yes there are always choices.

Each of those choices presents itself in a context. Voting D or R is also a choice but no one would pretend that it is the same type of choice to that an addict might have to make say when presented with a full syringe a day into a heroin detox just when the withdrawals are hitting their nastiest phase. No one can understand the (poor) decisions that a person might make, or the (good) decisions another person might make without understanding their particular contexts. I include a person’s history as an essential element of context here. A person with a history of making poor decisions is likely to replicate those poor decisions, and all addicts have histories of making less than perfect decisions.

So it is a choice, but it’s far from being just a choice, or just a question of making the right decision or of having the strength of character to make and stick to a good choice. Just as we can all agree that there is no one size fits all ‘cure’, can we all agree that there is no single explanation or element in recovery that will work for all people?


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RE: ADDICTS - 11/29/2013 12:20:10 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Uh yes. Some people think they can separate their minds from their biology and have unfettered free will.

Some people. The proverbial "them". Well, I think your ridicule is poorly drawn. But okay, I'll go there.

Uh yes. Some people think that whether they're "deciding" what to watch on TV, or whether they're "deciding" what to grab from the refrigerator for lunch, they're really just watching the decisions their brain is making, kind of like a ghost in the machine who is only along for the ride and screwed if it turns out to be a bad one.



K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 11/29/2013 12:33:50 AM >

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RE: ADDICTS - 11/29/2013 8:32:15 AM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

can we all agree that there is no single explanation or element in recovery that will work for all people?




No, we can't. There is one element of recovery that must be present in every single case, for every individual, regardless of any contributing circumstance - that person must want it to happen.


_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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RE: ADDICTS - 11/29/2013 9:23:17 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Perhaps if you watched the video you might start to have some understanding that addiction is not a matter of Will or Control.


Pedophilia is compulsive, should we have compassion for baby rapers as well?

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RE: ADDICTS - 11/29/2013 9:34:01 AM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Perhaps if you watched the video you might start to have some understanding that addiction is not a matter of Will or Control.


Pedophilia is compulsive, should we have compassion for baby rapers as well?



That's far from the dumbest aspect of the line you quoted, GotSteel.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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RE: ADDICTS - 11/29/2013 12:25:28 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

Oh for the amazing internet, Vince, where you can watch a little video, and suddenly become an expert in a subject you seem wholly unfamiliar with, with Dr. Mate as your guru.

It was a way to start a conversation, Rich. I never passed myself off as an expert. You need that phantom construction to vent your anger at me.

quote:

Understand something, Vincent. I don't talk about addicts, or people who didn't draw a stable, loving, middle-class two parent home in the birth lottery as They, as you seem to be assuming here. When I talk about the element of personal choice, I'm talking about choices I've made, choices important people in my life have made, about people I love who keep making the dumb ones.

I did not make this thread about you and the people important in your life. You injected your personal life problems into the thread. Frankly, I am not at all interested in your problems or in your anger. I have come to expect nothing better from you anymore.


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RE: ADDICTS - 11/29/2013 12:39:27 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

So it is a choice, but it’s far from being just a choice, or just a question of making the right decision or of having the strength of character to make and stick to a good choice.
There is a biased point of view among some commentators. They look at the 'cured' and say: See, they were cured because they chose to be cured. Then they look at the failures and say they did not wish to recover so they must be weak and flawed. It is the same whether we are talking about heroin addicts or obese food addicts. It is an illogic that leads to a blame the victim mode of thought. But we don't say that about cancer survivors vs cancer victims.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 11/29/2013 12:40:34 PM >

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RE: ADDICTS - 11/29/2013 12:45:57 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Uh yes. Some people think they can separate their minds from their biology and have unfettered free will.

Some people. The proverbial "them". Well, I think your ridicule is poorly drawn. But okay, I'll go there.

Uh yes. Some people think that whether they're "deciding" what to watch on TV, or whether they're "deciding" what to grab from the refrigerator for lunch, they're really just watching the decisions their brain is making, kind of like a ghost in the machine who is only along for the ride and screwed if it turns out to be a bad one.



K.


So then, you think mind can be separated from biology? That is the definition of 'ghost in the machine.' And why do you read ridicule in a simple statement? Do you feel personally affronted?

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RE: ADDICTS - 11/29/2013 12:50:21 PM   
MsMJAY


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Status: offline 		I watched the video and read the OP's post. I don't understand how anything the dr. said is going to help or benefit addicts; their family, or treatment professionals. It all sounded very "scienctific" but most of it sounded more like he was excusing or enabling addicts. I know from personal experience enabling does not help.

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RE: ADDICTS - 11/29/2013 12:56:51 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
I did not make this thread about you and the people important in your life. You injected your personal life problems into the thread. Frankly, I am not at all interested in your problems or in your anger. I have come to expect nothing better from you anymore.


You started a thread about addiction, Vince. I didn't realize you wanted to restrict the discussion to just what fit into the stupid little theory of the guy in the video that seems to be your introduction to to the topic.

Maybe a note in your OP that it's a only a conversation among those who share your ignorance, and are blind to the terminal hole in the good dr.'s theory?

Let me happily annoy you. You threw the subject out there, and the discussion of the topic will go where it goes. Yep. There is neurochemistry involved in addiction. Well, duh. Old news. There is a lot more involved as well, and anyone who denies that individual choice and free will are heavily involved in both the course of the condition, and in the recovery, is an ignoramus of the most extreme magnitude.

Clear as mud?

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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RE: ADDICTS - 11/29/2013 12:57:23 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Perhaps if you watched the video you might start to have some understanding that addiction is not a matter of Will or Control.


Pedophilia is compulsive, should we have compassion for baby rapers as well?

The compassion was offered as a necessary component for addicts in therapy rather than blaming them for their failures.

If I were a religious man I would think that there but for the grace of God goes a pedo but not me. Yeah, I feel sorry for the poor, twisted fucker and wonder what lead him to do it. Since you agree it is compulsive you know that those who act out do so because they lack control. Those that do not act out their fantasies have a strongly inhibiting prefrontal cortex. The criminals do not. Obviously. The same with cross dressing men and other fetishists. They will tell you of the relief from tension they feel when acting out. Human behavior is not so simple and not always, maybe seldom, free choice. Driven by compulsion is not the same as choosing which TV show to watch.

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RE: ADDICTS - 11/29/2013 1:10:39 PM   
MsMJAY


Posts: 515
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Status: offline 		Did I read it wrong or misunderstand you? Did you just say that pedophiles, drug addicts and fetishists are the same?


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Perhaps if you watched the video you might start to have some understanding that addiction is not a matter of Will or Control.


Pedophilia is compulsive, should we have compassion for baby rapers as well?

The compassion was offered as a necessary component for addicts in therapy rather than blaming them for their failures.

If I were a religious man I would think that there but for the grace of God goes a pedo but not me. Yeah, I feel sorry for the poor, twisted fucker and wonder what lead him to do it. Since you agree it is compulsive you know that those who act out do so because they lack control. Those that do not act out their fantasies have a strongly inhibiting prefrontal cortex. The criminals do not. Obviously. The same with cross dressing men and other fetishists. They will tell you of the relief from tension they feel when acting out. Human behavior is not so simple and not always, maybe seldom, free choice. Driven by compulsion is not the same as choosing which TV show to watch.



< Message edited by MsMJAY -- 11/29/2013 1:11:14 PM >

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RE: ADDICTS - 11/29/2013 2:16:33 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

Did I read it wrong or misunderstand you? Did you just say that pedophiles, drug addicts and fetishists are the same?

Not the same at all. Only they are acting out of compulsion which leads me to question that choice and free will are available to them.

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RE: ADDICTS - 11/29/2013 2:18:41 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

You started a thread about addiction, Vince. I didn't realize you wanted to restrict the discussion to just what fit into the stupid little theory of the guy in the video that seems to be your introduction to to the topic.

Disagreement is always welcome in discourse, Rich. Just a pity to see you get so angry.

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