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RE: ADDICTS - 11/29/2013 5:24:31 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
You deny then that subconscious activity is involved in decision making? ....

If you want to debate yourself, that's fine. But it gets confusing when you use a reply to me to do it. Trying dealing with what I'm actually saying. You cannot address the mind-body problem by abstracting the mind from the brain. The brain is part of the body.

K.


Well Damn, K. I never said it wasn't. FFS.


Holy shit, somebody's a materialist.

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RE: ADDICTS - 11/29/2013 5:38:32 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
So, you know the causes of cancer and other chronic illnesses? Brilliant! Can't possibly be life related activities like say . . . smoking cigs, eh? Or leading lives of unremitting stress and anger?


Did you miss the social condemnation of smoking or something?

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RE: ADDICTS - 11/29/2013 5:40:10 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
I took an addict's commitment to their recovery as a given. My bad if that isn't clear in the post.

I had in mind those who assert that addiction is a personal or moral flaw in an addict's character and that recovery is itself depend upon addressing the alleged shortcoming or 'character flaw'/personal responsibility/moral failure etc. While this perspective might prove useful in individual cases, to assert that it is a universal, that it is the critical element in all cases of addiction and recovery is as false as asserting it is totally irrelevant. It is one variable among many.


Given the state of the conversation, Tweak, I think you should have been clearer, but thank you for straightening it out. Not much seems to be taken as a given, so far on this thread.


* quote error edit

< Message edited by TheHeretic -- 11/29/2013 6:04:44 PM >

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RE: ADDICTS - 11/29/2013 5:42:35 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Please do share.



Been trying. None as so blind as those who will not see.



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RE: ADDICTS - 11/29/2013 5:48:47 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Oh, do you mean like people who refer to addicts as 'shitheads?'



The shitheads I've been talking about on this thread sure as hell aren't the addicts.

I will call my (still a druggie) cousin and lifelong dear friend a shithead sometimes, but it's a term of affection.

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RE: ADDICTS - 11/29/2013 6:04:16 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

Cancer survivors aren't snorting lines of breast cancer or asking for their leukemia to be supersized. Drug and lard addicts aren't mindless robots. Cocaine doesn't snort itself. Drug addicts are consciously, continually performing actions to put more poison in their bodies. That's not something that can be said about many with cancer.



Very true, but cancer doesn't directly alter the consciousness of the patient (brain tumors and such aside), nor does it come with a built-in craving for more. It's a shame we can't use the metaphor of a demon, without the certainty of it being taken as a literal belief, and running us off into the weeds. It would be a pretty damn good analogy.

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RE: ADDICTS - 11/29/2013 6:20:29 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Perhaps if you watched the video you might start to have some understanding that addiction is not a matter of Will or Control.

Pedophilia is compulsive, should we have compassion for baby rapers as well?

That's far from the dumbest aspect of the line you quoted, GotSteel.


I'm going to disagree. These people have gotten themselves into a position where chemically they are kind of fucked. I'm going to agree on that. They may well have been dealt a shitty hand. They may well have physical or mental defects that make them more prone to falling into the trap of addiction.

Where I take exception is that the above is a good reason to be accepting of these people.

As human beings other humans have long been our biggest problem. Ingroup/outgroup mentality is an evolutionary adaptation. Thing is during the red scare people became so paranoid as to outgroup the majority of Americans. The fallout from that is that now a lot of americans are really REALLY REALLY gunshy about outgrouping anybody.

I don't think outgrouping in and of itself is a bad thing. We're hardwired for it which would seem to me to be a compelling statistical argument that it's a usefull thing to do.

Some people are a horrible blight upon society, *shrug* fuck them.

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RE: ADDICTS - 11/29/2013 6:26:10 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Oh, do you mean like people who refer to addicts as 'shitheads?'


If you reread what he said you should find that he's not referring to addicts, he's making a disparaging remark toward the intellectual quality of those taking a position contrary to his own.

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RE: ADDICTS - 11/29/2013 6:45:17 PM   
DesFIP


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Status: offline 		I have no idea about the nurture half of the equation. In my family, alcoholism is a genetic problem. It runs down the family tree. My great-grandfather, my mother, my sister, my son. Not stress, not poor upbringing. It's a genetic problem.

Some of you have diabetes or kidney disease in your family tree, in my family we have alcoholism from the maternal line and mood disorders from my paternal line. They're still diseases.

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RE: ADDICTS - 11/29/2013 6:49:44 PM   
EdBowie


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Status: offline 		"Some people are a horrible blight upon society"   And out of that group, some people are addicts.  Some aren't.


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

I'm going to disagree. These people have gotten themselves into a position where chemically they are kind of fucked. I'm going to agree on that. They may well have been dealt a shitty hand. They may well have physical or mental defects that make them more prone to falling into the trap of addiction.

Where I take exception is that the above is a good reason to be accepting of these people.

As human beings other humans have long been our biggest problem. Ingroup/outgroup mentality is an evolutionary adaptation. Thing is during the red scare people became so paranoid as to outgroup the majority of Americans. The fallout from that is that now a lot of americans are really REALLY REALLY gunshy about outgrouping anybody.

I don't think outgrouping in and of itself is a bad thing. We're hardwired for it which would seem to me to be a compelling statistical argument that it's a usefull thing to do.

Some people are a horrible blight upon society, *shrug* fuck them.

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RE: ADDICTS - 11/29/2013 6:51:31 PM   
EdBowie


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There would appear to be more than one way to avoid becoming an addict.
1:   Never touch any sort of addictive substance your entire life.

2:   Be so favored of the gods that they gave you an entirely different anatomy than mere mortals, and therefore be immune to addictive substances.

3:  Be lucky enough to have muddled through life like most mortals with a combination of circumstances that spared you the ravages of addiction.  

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RE: ADDICTS - 11/29/2013 7:17:36 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie

FR

There would appear to be more than one way to avoid becoming an addict.
1:   Never touch any sort of addictive substance your entire life.

2:   Be so favored of the gods that they gave you an entirely different anatomy than mere mortals, and therefore be immune to addictive substances.

3:  Be lucky enough to have muddled through life like most mortals with a combination of circumstances that spared you the ravages of addiction.  



Assuming we are speaking here strictly of addictions to particular substances, I would add another.

4: Have a clear and comprehensive understanding of what you are getting into, when you get into it. The demonization tactics used against marijuana in drug education easily led a generation of experimental users who figured out they were lied to, to disbelieve the warnings about far more hazardous substances.



< Message edited by TheHeretic -- 11/29/2013 7:18:39 PM >

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If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
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RE: ADDICTS - 11/29/2013 7:33:57 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444
IMO.. the best thing parents, teachers, etc can do is teach kids to think independently and not succumb to pressure to try drugs (including cigs, booze, etc) in the first place (if that shite is so great then why the need to pressure someone into using it?).. I am not talking about the "just say no" stuff, but teach them to think first, evaluate the pros and cons of any situation or decision with a clear & honest head/mind and that will help them (imo) to decide on their own that the risk of addiction isn't worth "trying it" even once..

That hasn't worked out too well it seems. Teens are not at an age where they will think independently and outside the group to which they wish attachment. Biologically, the inhibiting prefrontal cortex is not completely developed until around age 25, give or take.

quote:

I cant say what is the best way to deal with addicts once they are addicted.. but I think that is up to them to have hit bottom and finally decided to quit for good, and they have to try different things to help them reach that goal.. as has been said, for some it might be taking up yoga or whatever release to control stress, for others it could be creating a new life with new friends, new home, new job, etc.. to find what works for each one, can be hit and miss, trial and error until they find what works for them..

The point raised in the video is that 'rock bottom' is a myth for too many and they would rather die than face life or face themselves.

Parents need to start teaching independence very, very early, starting that too late is pointless.. I give my mother credit for instilling that in me cuz I think it probably saved me from a lot of potential grief/bad shite.. I expect there were guys that would have raped me had I not decided at 16 that I wouldn't drink booze at all, had I not made that decision guys would have most certainly plied me with booze to do just that.. (not that I considered that as a possibility at the time, I see that clearly in retrospect tho).. I was living on my own at 17 and the only one in all my friends and young/ish people i knew that didn't drink, didn't smoke cigs or do drugs.. I seriously doubt that many parents have instilled that in their kids tho, I don't know of any others that have..

Whether you call it rock bottom or a pivot point, until they reach the decision to stop, they wont.. and they may not be successful the first time.. or second time, etc.. i imagine its a fierce battle for them..

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RE: ADDICTS - 11/29/2013 9:59:51 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
The demonization tactics used against marijuana in drug education easily led a generation of experimental users who figured out they were lied to, to disbelieve the warnings about far more hazardous substances.


This gateway gov. argument does seem pretty sound.

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RE: ADDICTS - 11/29/2013 10:23:08 PM   
GotSteel


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ORIGINAL: DesFIP
Some of you have diabetes or kidney disease in your family tree, in my family we have alcoholism from the maternal line and mood disorders from my paternal line. They're still diseases.


It's certainly possible to brain wash people into thinking somethings true by asserting it enough times. Thing is that doesn't actually make it true. I wouldn't doubt you that your family has a genetic defect making you suseptible to becoming alcoholics. Thing is there's a very simple choice which can be employed to prevent your family from ever becoming alcoholics, just don't drink ever. And that's a pretty clear difference.

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RE: ADDICTS - 11/29/2013 10:28:34 PM   
directiveerror


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Status: offline 		some interesting genetic studies have been done that show(in mice) that the offspring(father to son) of cocaine addicts(mice) will develop a sort of immunity to it, they are then less affected by those chemicals, some of them anyways, with genetics chance plays a large role(with females especially)


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RE: ADDICTS - 11/29/2013 11:40:30 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

I'm going to disagree. These people have gotten themselves into a position where chemically they are kind of fucked. I'm going to agree on that. They may well have been dealt a shitty hand. They may well have physical or mental defects that make them more prone to falling into the trap of addiction.

Where I take exception is that the above is a good reason to be accepting of these people.

As human beings other humans have long been our biggest problem. Ingroup/outgroup mentality is an evolutionary adaptation. Thing is during the red scare people became so paranoid as to outgroup the majority of Americans. The fallout from that is that now a lot of americans are really REALLY REALLY gunshy about outgrouping anybody.

I don't think outgrouping in and of itself is a bad thing. We're hardwired for it which would seem to me to be a compelling statistical argument that it's a usefull thing to do.

Some people are a horrible blight upon society, *shrug* fuck them.



Ok. I can see the logic in the position, even if I disagree with it. Hell, knowing that rabies is a disease isn't going to stop me from shooting a poor afflicted dog, if it comes at me while out walking in the desert. The thing is though, the rabid dog is going to die anyway, and poses a direct threat to others, while the drug addict on the street might have a hope of starting over, and consistently hurts himself far worse than any collateral damage he might trail.

My position here is not that addicts don't need some understanding and compassion, if they are ready to make that change, but that there cannot be any change without a conscious decision to make that happen for themselves.

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RE: ADDICTS - 11/30/2013 7:19:46 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

The brain can't be the "mind" of the mind-body problem because the brain is part of the body, get it now?

It is only problem for those who think the mind is independent of the brain. Your problem then; not mine. Get that now?

Will you please stop assigning claims to my position that I have explicitly denied? It is not necessary for the mind to be wholly independent or separate in order for there to be a mind-body problem. The mind-body problem arises because our inner subjective experience is fundamentally different from any formulation of objective electrochemical processes, and can be neither described nor explained by them.

Free will requires that the mind be able to interact with and produce effects in the brain and body, and it is difficult to imagine by what means that could take place if they were separate. Moreover, your argument that our free will is very limited in scope effectively demolishes your entire position. Because the extent of it's scope is detail. No matter how little we may have, if we have any at all then we have free will.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 11/30/2013 7:47:26 AM >

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RE: ADDICTS - 11/30/2013 7:29:27 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Please do share.



Been trying. None as so blind as those who will not see.



My point is that the lack of available treatment is a symptom of the lack of compassion we feel toward the addict and the blame we place on them. It seems just easier but not at all productive or helpful to condemn them as weak willed or moral failures.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 11/30/2013 8:26:57 AM >

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RE: ADDICTS - 11/30/2013 7:48:08 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

I'm going to disagree. These people have gotten themselves into a position where chemically they are kind of fucked. I'm going to agree on that. They may well have been dealt a shitty hand. They may well have physical or mental defects that make them more prone to falling into the trap of addiction.
Exactly HOW did pedos get themselves into a position to be chemically fucked? If you are talking about drug addicts there is still the problem of how they made that early choice. It is not necessarily a rational one. The inhibiting portion of the human brain is not fully developed until around age 25. In teens it is probably dysfunctional and that's why we acted so crazy and reckless when we were kids.

I assume you are talking of compulsive pedos who have acted out. No reason at all to be accepting of them. I did not make such a suggestion. Nor did I suggest we should accept drug addicts.

quote:

I don't think outgrouping in and of itself is a bad thing. We're hardwired for it which would seem to me to be a compelling statistical argument that it's a usefull thing to do.

I used to think that. Was a position I held firmly. Not so confident about that anymore. Dawkins made the point in The Selfish Gene that we are more successful at passing on our genes by being gregarious and very social.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 11/30/2013 8:28:25 AM >

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